Maggot
The Cake of Liberty
Flying isn't only by rich people. You never heard of easyjet?
Thames estuary airport plan
- Thread starter Ralph Masters
- Start date
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Who?
Oh the airline which sells some seats for a bargain and the rest at an over-inflated price to the rich who need to travel at short notice, covering the discount and bringing in the profit. The same model all airlines, except Ryanair, use.
You can fly to New York and back now for £300, I double fucking dare you to guess how much those in business and first class care paying.
They subsidise the discounted economy seats.
In fact I dare you to guess how much a businessman has to pay to travel to New York on BA out on Monday, back the following day, he has a meeting, but has to travel economy. He's sat next to you in your £300 seat, guess how much he pays. Or look it up at ba.com, either way you'll shit bricks.
r0bb0
wheres my balloon
Been in the news a bit recently so thread bump:
.PDF from Halcrow on how they envisage the project
www.halcrow.com/Thames-Hub/PDF/Thames_Hub_vision.pdf
.PDF from Halcrow on how they envisage the project
www.halcrow.com/Thames-Hub/PDF/Thames_Hub_vision.pdf
George & Bill
semiotically superfluous
Ever bought a Ryanair flight at the desk? Just the same model, I can assure you.
Doesn't mean non-rich people don't fly though, we just have to plan ahead..
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Jeepers, that document is outlining a plan for a 4 track high speed London orbital rail line. Where's that going to go? Through densely populated north Surrey, or through the Surrey Hills?
And let's debunk a lie that pro-estuary airport bods have been happily spouting recently; Heathrow is at capacity so direct flights to emerging markets such as China and Brazil cannot be accommodated.
Currently British Airways operates 10 flights every day from Heathrow to New York and 10 flights back again. That's 20 slots used by just BA on that one route alone.
Currently BA flies to Beijing once a day, six days a week. Same for Shanghai, 6 flights a week. They can't fill a flight to these major cities enough to warrant even a daily flight, let alone multiple flights. So when you hear Wee Willie Walsh or Boris going on about the lack of slots to open a route to Guangzhou, it's just bollocks. If the demand was there they'd free up a slot. The truth is there is no demand for direct flights to these places and should the demand arise, they'd scale back on their US flights.
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
What do you mean "free up slots", you don't think those US flights are close to full?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The idea is to close Heathrow, though. One thing I do agree with is that Heathrow is in the wrong place. You'd never put an airport there if you were starting from scratch again.
I can see the case for this, and if it's combined with an ambitious Thames barrier, that solves some of the energy demand worries. Adding in other concerns such as those for wildlife, etc, changes the equation, but I can see the case for it.
I can see the case for this, and if it's combined with an ambitious Thames barrier, that solves some of the energy demand worries. Adding in other concerns such as those for wildlife, etc, changes the equation, but I can see the case for it.
Budget flying is dominated by medium-high income customers - it makes sense really, you need to pay for hotels and restaurants at the other end.
I can't find the specifically British analysis on this right now, but here's some numbers from Spain [1] - for low cost carriers:
Income:
High 23.59%
Medium 74.79%
Low 1.62%
So you'll see there that the airborne-council-estate idea - democratising air travel for the poor - is a myth. It's promoted by the budget aviation lobbyists - who use it as an argument against anything that hurts their business, such as higher taxes or increased consumer protection. "Hurt us, and you hurt the poor". Alluring though it is, it's a big lie.
[1] Analysis - PDF, 760 pages (!)
You'll need to factor in a wholesale migration of support businesses and workers from West to East.
I don't know the number of people working at Heathrow and living in the area is, but it must be tens of thousands. Few will either be able to afford, or countenance, a cross city journey to get to the new airport.
So there'll need to be tens of thousands of new homes, and also 100s of hectares of light industrial space added. And if this all came to pass, what then for West London? It would face an economic collapse, and there's no obvious industry of that scale & type to bring in a new population and businesses.
I agree the idea would be to close Heathrow - otherwise you fragment the hub and make things even worse - but everything that entails make this seem like even more of a non starter to me.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Very rarely are they full.
The reason BA has so many flights to the US is that they can charge a premium for them; London-JFK-London BA first class is £9921.93, that's £300 MORE than London-Sydney-London in BA's first class, yet the flight time is a third of what it is to Sydney.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Yes, places selling shellsuits, massive tellys and cheap cider mainly.
But if we're going to build infrastructure for rich people, site it where the rich people are, or they'll not use it.
bi0boy
Power User
Wrong, they will use it. Unless you're suggesting that all current airports are built in rich people's zones.
The location should be determined by more important factors, such as flight paths being over residential areas vs the sea.
bi0boy
Power User
But how do they get to the airport as it's not sited in a rich person's area?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
No, I'm suggesting that the majority of air travellers are fairly well off and there are shed loads of fairly well off people in Surrey, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Hertfordshire etc. who would not fancy the schlep out to Medway and would instead go from Birmingham via Paris, Amsterdam or Frankfurt.
By car or the terrible thameslink like everyone else
Eta Fwiw I think people would travel to a new airport if it had fast travel links from the city and medway towns could certainly do with the jobs
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Luton airport is bugt 20 miles from Ascot, a town full of wealthy people that is surrounded by wealthy areas. How far is it from Ascot to Medway?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Indeed. This could only be done with a new fast and convenient rail link. With a coordinated transport policy, basically.
I can see many arguments against it, but the one argument in its favour is, imo, that this is where London's main airport should have been put in the first place. The question then becomes 1. How much environmental damage would moving there cause, and 2. How much is it logistically possible to provide the infrastructure for travellers and workers to get there.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Argument against estuary airport #23
bi0boy
Power User
Surely an argument for an estuary airport.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
How?
bi0boy
Power User
Rich people live outwith Ascot btw, like in Surrey, or London, or Kent.
If some travel from B'ham instead if Heathrow is closed, is that so bad?
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
Just stick another couple of runways at Heathrow. It's got the road and rail infrastructure. If extra flights annoy the residents of West London and Berkshire, they can move.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I would hazard a guess Surrey, Berks. Oxon. Hants. Herts. contain the majority of wealthy non-London living rich people in the South East. It's hard enough to get them to go to Gatwick ffs, never mind fucking Medway.
Still, them flying from Birmingham frees up the estuary airport for the massed hordes of globe trotters from Chatham and the environs.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
No need, turn Northolt in to a satellite of Heathrow, if the demand for extra slots is really there.
No, we need that for we declare independence, as a base for the London Air Force.
bi0boy
Power User
That airliner successfully landed on water with no fatalities. It probably could have done the same in the Thames estuary, but not on a residential street in Hounslow.
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