Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[bimble]

I maintain that Hebdo is shit satire and I don't think it should be used in classes containing Muslims for all the reasons that have been discussed on the thread.

Fine in classes with 0 muslims in?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Social basis of the belief for me; if the belief in fairies came in a package with something you were born into in a marginalised community and that something provided some semblance of an identity and solidarity I might think twice before launching into a spiel on how silly it all was. Same as I don't start banging on to house Christians and folk Buddhists I meet here, usually people on the margins looking for something, though if they want to talk about it I'll tell them why I don't believe and don't think they should.

CH isn't just a bunch of sniggering white men, btw. Its journalistic staff included at the time of the murders the likes of Moroccan ex-Muslim Zineb El Rhazoui, who wrote the text for many of the cartoons.

She has subsequently left CH. why? She says it is because the magazine adopted an 'editorial line demanded by Islamists'. cos they didn't carry on with the cartoons, basically. She's worth reading. Brave, principled and she has a very interesting take on many of the issues raised here to do with the racism involved in giving in to Islamists and conservative religious forces within marginalised groups.

 

[kabbes]

That it's possible to discuss issues highlighted/raised by this case other than everyone simply posting reams of condemnation of the murder which is so obvious that it doesn't need pointing out.

So it’s option two for you, then — the context doesn’t matter

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Another problem for me is I think the CH cartoons are French liberal society speaking to itself primarily and then wider French political society second with Muslim French people only a minor consideration. So this constant breaking of the taboo of picturing Mohammed might work well as a reminder to the secular French state to stay that way (fair enough) but it's not really any sort of engagement with the people who's taboo is being broken to make that point, they're collateral. Partly serves you right for having a taboo but also strikes me as leaving practising Muslims in France as marginal to a conversation that is in many ways about them.
Ultimately, tough shit to go with all the rest you have, but still different to the same conversation in a mainly Muslim polity. I think I just don't like smug provocateurs (which is how the style comes over to me) who end up punching down, even if by accident.
Genuinely don't think any of that offers the slightest justification for the murder, of course it's the reverse; if cunts like that want you cowering before their violence they should probably include the cartoons as inserts into every piece of printed material in the country because it's no longer just an intra-liberal spat or a question of taste.

Abso-lutely. As someone who is muslim through lived experience and not theology, I.E: branded as muslim irregardless of my religious views, I don't give a shit about the cartoons but also it does read like mostly white middle class (not always before someone tells me who was on the editorial staff of ch) people wanking off each other. A bit like this thread, actually.

Which is what I was trying to explain to LBJ. Even as a strong atheist I am seen as a muslim to white society. Whether I am progressive or practising/non-practising is irrelevant. islam is racialised concomitant to class. Or more rather: islam is the modality through which class is lived. It has little to do with how observant someone is. Often those who are practicing are much more middle class. And the middle class is a recruiting ground for ginger jihadists. But we don't want to have that conversation. It is not always (not even predominantly) a revolt of the poor.

 

[Spymaster]

Fine in classes with 0 muslims in?

Dunno. As mentioned before I don't think so but might be able to be pursuaded otherwise.

 

[kabbes]

This is neither here nor there in the intended context of the thread. I wasn't seeking a discussion on why Paty was killed, but one on whether cartoons like that should be used in classes and Muslim kids be asked to self identify.

Ah, so apparently the context of the debate does matter so long as it’s your chosen context.

 

[Spymaster]

Ah, so apparently the context of the debate does matter so long as it’s your chosen context.

Well yes. I started the thread.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

i mean come on lads, if you're going to talk a group which you have nebulously defined, you have a muslim on the thread right here. You can't file me away as one of the good guys - that's what they used to say about the asians in the 70s! That ain't how this works lol.

 

[bimble]

Dunno. No, I don't think so.

ok.. so its not actually about the Muslim kids in the class being made to feel marginalised or put in a bad situation like you've been banging on for pages. So then what?
That the cartoons should not exist at all? That they should not be seen in a school ( in the context of a conversation about free speech and its limits ) should just floating around online instead? you seem confused.

 

[Spymaster]

ok.. so its not actually about the Muslim kids in the class being made to feel marginalised or put in a bad situation like you've been banging on for pages. So then what?

Eh? Of course it is. At least part of it is. See my edit.

 

[Spymaster]

.

 

[kabbes]

Well yes. I started the thread.

But you did so within a pre-existing context. You don’t get to pretend that isn’t the case. And you used that context to frame the debate with the statement that a murdered man was unwisely inflammatory.

 

[Spymaster]

But you did so within a pre-existing context. You don’t get to pretend that isn’t the case. And you used that context to frame the debate with the statement that a murdered man was unwisely inflammatory.

Well it was a question, but sorry, yes I do. I get to frame it in any way I like. It's then up to you and others if you wish to engage with it.

 

[bimble]

Eh? Of course it is. At least part of it is. See my edit.

You think showing the cartoons and having a big chat about them to a class where none of the kids are Muslim would maybe be fine but probably not. . ok.

 

[ignatious]

I maintain that Hebdo is shit satire and I don't think it should be used in classes containing Muslims for all the reasons that have been discussed on the thread.

Not all muslims would be offended by the cartoons though; surely the context in which they are used In the class matters.

If used as exemplars of freedom of expression I can see why there’d be more of an issue as that would be akin to gloating over the images, but if in the French curriculum freedom of expression classes are more discussion based, with pupils holding different views being encouraged to express their opinions, including why some may find them offensive and damaging, in a sort of truth and reconciliation type scenario, that would be different. Many muslims might actually welcome the opportunity to explain why they are so offensive to them, if they are.

 

[kabbes]

Well it was a question, but sorry, yes I do. I get to frame it in any way I like. It's then up to you and others if you wish to engage with it.

Well, see what you hath wrought

 

[Spymaster]

You think showing the cartoons and having a big chat about them to a class where none of the kids are Muslim would maybe be fine but probably not. . ok.

Lol silly! It's not something that I've formed an opinion on yet. Hope that makes it a bit easier for you!

 

[Athos]

Well it was a question, but sorry, yes I do. I get to frame it in any way I like.

You do, but it ill behoves you.

Of course pre-existing context is important. It's like the difference between telling a woman it's unwise to go down a particular alley as a warning, and telling her it's unwise to go down a particular alley after she's been raped there; on the face it, the words are the same, but the circumstances make them two very different things.

You're usually sound, so I accept that you're sincere when you say that you don't mean to blame the victim, and that you condemn the murderer, but to start this thread was, at best, crass.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I'm still none the wiser how lbj, athos etc are actually going to combat islamism. If I'm ever arrested/beaten up/killed on sadicious communist homosexual charges I'll be sure to request 12 hours in front of urban 75 before the bullet goes in the head. the last wish of the repentent kafir, and all. the white shahada.

 

[Spymaster]

Not all muslims would be offended by the cartoons though; surely the context in which they are used In the class matters.

If used as exemplars of freedom of expression I can see why there’d be more of an issue as that would be akin to gloating over the images, but if in the French curriculum freedom of expression classes are more discussion based, with pupils holding different views being encouraged to express their opinions, including why some may find them offensive and damaging, in a sort of truth and reconciliation type scenario, that would be different. Many muslims might actually welcome the opportunity to explain why they are so offensive to them, if they are.

Aaaaaaaand round we go again!

Why risk offending anyone when you can have a perfectly fulfilling debate on FoE without doing so .... etc etc etc ....

Maybe just go back and read the thread again from about page 10?

 

[ManchesterBeth]

but just as an aside, freedom of speech does not exist as a universal, it only exists for those legitimated as worthy citizens. otherwise deportations would not take place. Because as a whole you cannot be free to voice your views when you are deprived of said residence.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here's an article about Zineb El Rhazoui for those who might be interested. Might make it a bit harder to bang on about CH being racist. Principled, politically committed and fucking courageous. We need more of this please.

The right to blasphemy: is this the boundary between civilisation and barbarism?

Much of El Rhazoui’s keynote speech at the conference explored the similarities between the European far right and the Islamic far right – a striking comparison she explores in her book, Detruire le Fascisme Islamique (Destroy Islamic Fascism), which was published last year but is not yet available in English.

The European and Islamic far right want to construct very different societies, but both “divide society into communities and they believe that those communities don’t have the same rights,” she said. “The far right thinks that Europe has to be white, Christian, Roman and they have more rights because they are the oldest in that country and this Islamic far right think they have more rights because it’s the will of God”.

The cult of the chief is also common to both extremisms, El Rhazoui added. In Islam, “it is still Muhammed and we are still paying the price for criticising him like any other dictator in the world". Other common features in her analysis include “a ready-to-think ideology, a ready-to-speak language against arts and intellectuals and oppressive sexism against women and homosexuals".

 

[Athos]

I'm still none the wiser how lbj, athos etc are actually going to combat islamism. If I'm ever arrested/beaten up/killed on sadicious communist homosexual charges I'll be sure to request 12 hours in front of urban 75 before the bullet goes in the head. the last wish of the repentent kafir, and all. the white shahada.

If I had to spend 12 with you, I'd be begging for the bullet.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

but just as an aside, freedom of speech does not exist as a universal, it only exists for those legitimated as worthy citizens. otherwise deportations would not take place. Because as a whole you cannot be free to voice your views when you are deprived of said residence.

Sure. And nobody here is defending that situation. Would be a very good point to raise in a class discussion of freedom of speech.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Here's an article about Zineb El Rhazoui for those who might be interested. Might make it a bit harder to bang on about CH being racist. Principled, politically committed and fucking courageous. We need more of this please.

The right to blasphemy: is this the boundary between civilisation and barbarism?

Yes, Ive read that article. I don't care if CH is racist or not. You do, and there is the disconnect. You let spy run all over you. You're better than this.

Your type will be like light skinned Fijians are not black because for you race is an anti-discrimination position, and not a form of management of populations.. Needless to say this is more paternalist than you think it is. I'm not spoiling for a fight, you're just too up your own arse to see your politics are ransid.

There have been atheists secularists in the islamic world long before this woman but you're just trying to seek absolution from her. Needless to say this is misogynist and does a disservice to her argument. People have criticised muhammad in the middle east. Why it is basically impossible to do so these days is interesting, but you focus on the text as if the normative divine claims its fundamentalist advocates make is true. The thing is, you can't go head to toe with a fundie. You can tell them their belief is ransid, but not why it is ransid. It's all appeals to your irrelevant morality. I think XYZ is bad. Whereas the fundie won't agree with me but I can tell him why his belief is historically wrong. Your secularism precisely serves as political and ideological impotence. Cowardice, in other words.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

If I had to spend 12 with you, I'd be begging for the bullet.

Pingers bring us all together lads, don't they.

Pity it will only take you 12 hours to beg for a bullet. gutless coward who can't even value their own life.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, Ive read that article. I don't care if CH is racist or not. You do, and there is the disconnect. You let spy run all over you. You're better than this.

Your type will be like light skinned Fijians are not black because for you race is an anti-discrimination position, and not a form of management of populations.. Needless to say this is more paternalist than you think it is. I'm not spoiling for a fight, you're just too up your own arse to see your politics are ransid.

There have been atheists secularists in the islamic world long before this woman but you're just trying to seek absolution from her. Needless to say this is misogynist and does a disservice to her argument. People have criticised muhammad in the middle east. Why it is basically impossible to do so these days is interesting, but you focus on the text as if the normative divine claims its fundamentalist advocates make is true. The thing is, you can't go head to toe with a fundie. You can tell them their belief sucks, but not why it sucks. It's all appeals to your irrelevant morality. I think XYZ is bad. Whereas the fundie won't agree with me but I can tell him why his belief is historically wrong. Your secularism precisely serves as political and ideological impotence. Cowardice, in other words.

And this is why I rarely engage with you tbh.

You love telling other people what they think. You're very often very wrong.

 

[Athos]

Pingers bring us all together lads, don't they.

Pity it will only take you 12 hours to beg for a bullet. gutless coward who can't even value their own life.

I value my life too much to waste it on your pretentious drivel.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

And this is why I rarely engage with you tbh.

You love telling other people what they think. You're very often very wrong.

It's very easy you know. tell me how you are going to tackle islamism and I'll actually retract everything I said. Not 'amplify voices.' 'Save the Whales!'

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I value my life too much to waste it on your pretentious drivel.

So you won't be begging for a bullet after 12 hours. That makes you a liar then. And, of course, pretentious. Using insults as a pretence.