Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[killer b]

I imagine as an entire office full of satirists got machine-gunned over this exact thing in Paris only a few years ago, and he was teaching a class about it, Samuel Paty understood that it was indeed a possible consequence.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The law provides little protection from the violence be it arbitrary or coordinated of those employed by the state to enforce the law. The French police kill and get away with killing about 25 to 30 civilians, mostly from minority communities, a year, about the same as Britain and hundreds less than the US forces. They're also adept at maiming people as can be seen by the large number of demonstrators blinded by rubber bullets over the past two or three years.

Teachers in France are not being slaughtered or blinded by fanatics be they religious or secular at a comparable rate.

Racial police violence: the French perspective

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No that's not true. The law provides substantial protection, but abuses still occur. Just try living somewhere without that protection to see the difference.

That's a bit of a derail, though.

 

[tim]

No that's not true. The law provides substantial protection, but abuses still occur. Just try living somewhere without that protection to see the difference.

That's a bit of a derail, though.

If it wasn't for those pesky bad apples, they would have got away with it.

 

[Edie]

I don't think 'accept' is the right word; yes, you have to understand that it's a possible consequence, but not accept it.

That would of been a better way of saying it yes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If it wasn't for those pesky bad apples, they would have got away with it.

I didn't say that either. But the idea that somehow in places like France and Britain, the state is mostly free to exercise arbitrary violence over its citizens is simply bollocks.

 

[Serge Forward]

The law provides little protection from the violence be it arbitrary or coordinated of those employed by the state to enforce the law. The French police kill and get away with killing about 25 to 30 civilians, mostly from minority communities, a year, about the same as Britain and hundreds less than the US forces. They're also adept at maiming people as can be seen by the large number of demonstrators blinded by rubber bullets over the past two or three years.

Teachers in France are not being slaughtered or blinded by fanatics be they religious or secular at a comparable rate.

Racial police violence: the French perspective

The French police have always been violent, but more people are seeing it now | Mathieu Rigouste

Though to be fair, I haven't yet seen anyone supporting 'les flics' on here.

 

[tim]

I didn't say that either. But the idea that somehow in places like France and Britain, the state is mostly free to exercise arbitrary violence over its citizens is simply bollocks.

I'll concede that most state violence against civilians in both places is targeted not arbitrary.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thanks for the info, though. I had no idea that the French and British police killed people, nor that they were racist.

 

[tim]

Thanks for the info, though. I had no idea that the French and British police killed people, nor that they were racist.

It's a bigger problem than the random incident you are focusing on. A squalid crime that we actually still know little about in which religion is a factor but unlikely to be the sole factor that has guided the killer.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

BBC Voice

other world problems also exist

 

[danny la rouge]

Well maybe if you think about it like that, you can have the freedom, praxis and direct action to be that offensive, but you have to accept that if you provoke some people that much the consequence will be that they’re prepared to kill you.

To use Maryam Namazie’s analogy, you’d have to also say that women who go out dressed “provocatively” have to accept the consequence that they may be raped.

The problem is the rape, the murder, the rapist, the murderer.

 

[purenarcotic]

To use Maryam Namazie’s analogy, you’d have to also say that women who go out dressed “provocatively” have to accept the consequence that they may be raped.

The problem is the rape, the murder, the rapist, the murderer.

Was just about to say something along similar lines. ‘She was wearing a short skirt, your honour!’ ‘Well if she will get into an unmarked taxi, what does she expect?’ ‘What did he expect would happen when he took that route home’ ad infinitum...

The narrative should always be shifted back to where it belongs, with the perpetrator. You can be as pissed off as you like, that doesn’t translate to beheading someone ffs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a bigger problem than the random incident you are focusing on. A squalid crime that we actually still know little about in which religion is a factor but unlikely to be the sole factor that has guided the killer.

Just to return to this, it wasn't random. This teacher was targetted for a very specific reason, and his name is now added to a sadly lengthening list of people who have been killed in recent years in France by Islamist fundamentalists.

 

[Red Cat]

It's a bigger problem than the random incident you are focusing on. A squalid crime that we actually still know little about in which religion is a factor but unlikely to be the sole factor that has guided the killer.

I should think the motivation to plan and execute a beheading might well involve many factors.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To use Maryam Namazie’s analogy, you’d have to also say that women who go out dressed “provocatively” have to accept the consequence that they may be raped.

The problem is the rape, the murder, the rapist, the murderer.

And I would like to extend that to the Charlie Hebdo satirists, as well, not just this teacher.

 

[Edie]

Was just about to say something along similar lines. ‘She was wearing a short skirt, your honour!’ ‘Well if she will get into an unmarked taxi, what does she expect?’ ‘What did he expect would happen when he took that route home’ ad infinitum...

The narrative should always be shifted back to where it belongs, with the perpetrator. You can be as pissed off as you like, that doesn’t translate to beheading someone ffs.

I’m not sure I entirely agree. (I mean obviously I agree with the final sentence, and denounce this crime etc. I just aren’t convinced that we can just go about our lives being as provocative as we choose and expecting to be protected from the consequences).

 

[killer b]

I think if one of the possible consequences is being beheaded by a maniac, then yes we absolutely should expect to be protected from them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’m not sure I entirely agree. (I mean obviously I agree with the final sentence, and denounce this crime etc. I just aren’t convinced that we can just go about our lives being as provocative as we choose and expecting to be protected from the consequences).

Really? People should hold back from saying what they think because of the danger that some cunt might murder them for it? That's a very sorry place to be in.

 

[purenarcotic]

I’m not sure I entirely agree. (I mean obviously I agree with the final sentence, and denounce this crime etc. I just aren’t convinced that we can just go about our lives being as provocative as we choose and expecting to be protected from the consequences).

But none of the examples I gave were provocative. It is not provocative for a woman to wear a short skirt, or to get into a taxi or for a bloke to take a dodgy route home, so I dunno what you’re on about. I’m not an idiot, it is why I have Hollie Guard installed and it is why I make sure mates have got home safe and all those other things. But at some point, the narrative has to start changing, otherwise nothing ever improves.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Nobody is saying that the cartoons shouldn't be shown at all. The question is whether or not a teacher showing them to a class with muslim kids in, knowing that they are likely to cause offence, is exercising sound judgement.

Again, where do you draw the line? Is the teacher allowed to mention that people should be allowed to choose their religion?

 

[Edie]

Really? People should hold back from saying what they think because of the danger that some cunt might murder them for it? That's a very sorry place to be in.

I just don’t know. Sorry. My thinking is too muddled on this. I’ll just go back to listening.

 

[Edie]

But none of the examples I gave were provocative. It is not provocative for a woman to wear a short skirt, or to get into a taxi or for a bloke to take a dodgy route home, so I dunno what you’re on about. I’m not an idiot, it is why I have Hollie Guard installed and it is why I make sure mates have got home safe and all those other things. But at some point, the narrative has to start changing, otherwise nothing ever improves.

Wearing a short skirt is provocative. That’s the point of short skirts That isn’t to say you deserve to be raped for wearing them. But don’t deny the obvious or we’ve gone down a rabbit hole!

 

[purenarcotic]

Wearing a short skirt is provocative. That’s the point of short skirts That isn’t to say you deserve to be raped for wearing them. But don’t deny the obvious or we’ve gone down a rabbit hole!

Is it? What behaviour am I trying to provoke when I put on a short skirt then?

 

[planetgeli]

Wearing a short skirt is provocative. That’s the point of short skirts

Wow.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Wearing a short skirt is provocative. That’s the point of short skirts

Or maybe some people just like to wear short skirts? I definitely prefer them. They make me look even taller than I am.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Again, where do you draw the line? Is the teacher allowed to mention that people should be allowed to choose their religion?

And allowed to leave the religion of their parents. 'apostasy' is punishable by death in some countries. That could conceivably be enough for a beheading - encouraging students to think that they don't have to follow the religion they were born into.

There are some seriously big differences between the values that most of us in Europe live by and the values of certain religious groups, among them particular strands of Islam. I know it was mentioned earlier that saying that comes pretty close to the lines taken by various right-wingers, but it's surely something that is just as true for a left-winger. It's surely undeniable. Horrible phrase, but 'secular values' do mean something.

 

[Edie]

Is it? What behaviour am I trying to provoke when I put on a short skirt then?

You are inviting other people to look at your body, and some of them will find looking sexually provocative. What on Earth do you think when you put on a short skirt?!

 

[Saul Goodman]

You are inviting other people to look at your body, and some of them will find looking sexually provocative. What on Earth do you think when you put on a short skirt?!

Personally, I wear clothes that I like to wear. I couldn't give a rat's arse what others think of how I look.

 

[Edie]

Personally, I wear clothes that I like to wear. I couldn't give a rat's arse what others think of how I look.

Yes but your a bloke

 

[sleaterkinney]

The law provides little protection from the violence be it arbitrary or coordinated of those employed by the state to enforce the law. The French police kill and get away with killing about 25 to 30 civilians, mostly from minority communities, a year, about the same as Britain and hundreds less than the US forces. They're also adept at maiming people as can be seen by the large number of demonstrators blinded by rubber bullets over the past two or three years.

Teachers in France are not being slaughtered or blinded by fanatics be they religious or secular at a comparable rate.

Racial police violence: the French perspective

The French police have always been violent, but more people are seeing it now | Mathieu Rigouste

Yeah but