SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

[Chz]

It's also got a lot to do with the motor industry which is prioritising larger, heavier and pointlessly powerful cars.

Disagree. The motor industry is tailored to produce what people buy.

Edit: Or to word it another way, the motor industry is complicit, in that they couldn't give a fuck about emissions, but they strive for profit above all else and the recent history of producing smaller vs. larger cars has shown that the smaller ones don't sell very well. So they stop making them. That's capitalism.

 

[editor]

Disagree. The motor industry is tailored to produce what people buy.

You can disagree all you like, but it's what's happening.

The shift to larger cars in Europe long predates the electrification push. Data compiled by T&E shows the spread between smaller and larger segments has not changed much in Europe, but within segments, hatchbacks and sedans have given way to larger SUVs. So, Picassos and Puntos are not replaced by RAM 1500s – instead, they turn into compact SUVs.

The average weight of a European car has increased by 100kg and the dimensions by 6% in the last 10 years.

SUV-isation is as much a feature of the combustion engine market as it is of electrics: while half of all battery electric cars sold this year are SUVs, diesel and petrol cars are just behind at 46%.

Car size is king when it comes to industry profits: SUVs, on average, sell for almost 60% more in Europe, according to Jato. And Ford’s strategy to improve its profits and shift to SUVs is the reason for axing the Fiesta.

Auto bosses appear to be culling small cars in pursuit of profit. VW, Stellantis and BMW have all announced that they are moving towards selling fewer cars and focusing on more premium, high-end models.

This is showing up in the carmakers’ financials: while sales volumes are down since the pandemic, the profits of BMW, VW and Stellantis grew by 15-30% last year, with double-digit margins.

But exiting smaller car segments is not good news for the environment, drivers or the European industry.

Why are small European cars disappearing?

Ditching small vehicles is bad for consumers, the environment and, ultimately, western carmakers, argues Julia Poliscanova, senior director for vehicles and e-mobility at the green NGO Transport & Environment.

www.euractiv.com

Established Automakers Restrict Production of Smaller, Cheaper Models, and why that's a BIG problem! - Fully Charged Show

fullycharged.show

 

[Chz]

You can disagree all you like, but it's what's happening.

Why are small European cars disappearing?

Ditching small vehicles is bad for consumers, the environment and, ultimately, western carmakers, argues Julia Poliscanova, senior director for vehicles and e-mobility at the green NGO Transport & Environment.

www.euractiv.com

Established Automakers Restrict Production of Smaller, Cheaper Models, and why that's a BIG problem! - Fully Charged Show

fullycharged.show

You're basically agreeing with me. Larger cars make more money because more people buy them.
Making dozens of models is out the window, they want 3 platforms maybe that can be outfitted in various ways. The smallest ones are the least able to be converted into several trim levels and don't sell anyhow. So they go.

Look. Small cars still exist. And yet for some reason they're not tearing up the sales figures. And a basic small car these days has a dozen air bags, satnav, reverse assistance, etc. So it's just not because they're bare, econoboxes that people don't buy them.

Edit to add: And the figures using Audi as an example are inane. The A1/A2 were always a stupid idea for Audi. It's a premium brand selling VW's cheapest models with leather trim and trashing the brand. VW still sells the Up! and the Polo, let them. That's their job. Audi's job is to sell premium stuff, and small has never been premium. (outside of 2-seaters)

 

[editor]

You're basically agreeing with me. Larger cars make more money because more people buy them.

No. I'm not. You're asserting that more large cars are being made in response to the market whereas those articles clearly state that manufacturers are phasing out smaller cars because they can make fatter profits from larger, more polluting cars. So they promote the heavier cars to stimulate bigger sales. it's basic capitalism stamping all over the environment, and it's fucking shit.

 

[Chz]

No. I'm not. You're asserting that more large cars are being made in response to the market whereas those articles clearly state that manufacturers are phasing out smaller cars because they can make fatter profits from larger, more polluting cars. So they promote the heavier cars to stimulate bigger sales. it's basic capitalism stamping all over the environment, and it's fucking shit.

Those articles claim a lot, with little proof.
Fact. Small cars still exist. There is no conspiracy to eliminate them.
Fact. They don't sell as well as larger models.
Fact. Larger production runs = more amortization of fixed costs = more profit. Yes, they're profit-hungry bastards, but so long as there's money to be made in small cars they'll still sell them.

Now part of the problem here is that these things were written 2021/2022. When the car industry had a massive parts shortage and people were waiting months for even luxury, high-profit marques. So yes, during that time the parts were most definitely shunted to the luxury (and thus big, big has always been luxury) end of things. But that's not a conspiracy to kill small cars. Renault still sells a Twingo. Volkswagen still sells an Up!. Peugeot still sells a 108. Ford axed the Fiesta mainly due to a financial crush at US HQ. Kia still sells a Picanto. Fiat still sells a 500. Citroen has axed the C1/C2, but they're the same as Audi - they're now Peugeot's premium line. (Buy a 108/208, they're the same thing) Vauxhall still sells a Corsa. Hyundai still sells an i10. BMW and MB got out of the small car business quite a while ago. It doesn't match their brand. Nissan still sells a Micra. Honda still sells a Jazz. And on and on...

 

[editor]

Fact. Small cars still exist. There is no conspiracy to eliminate them.

Just admiring the formidable girth of that strawman.

 

[Orang Utan]

you’re so naive, Chz

 

[Chz]

Just admiring the formidable girth of that strawman.

You quote articles saying they are phasing out smaller cars. I ask, where is the evidence? There are still a dozen marques of small car on the market, fighting for dwindling sales. It may be that more of them are phased out over time, but the cause is smaller sales. They claim it's the effect, but that's hardly possible with the wealth of them to choose from.

 

[editor]

You quote articles saying they are phasing out smaller cars. I ask, where is the evidence? There are still a dozen marques of small car on the market, fighting for dwindling sales. It may be that more of them are phased out over time, but the cause is smaller sales. They claim it's the effect, but that's hardly possible with the wealth of them to choose from.

Here. have a read and learn something:

But the Fit news is different, because they already announced the all new Something-Or-Other, and it’s a newer Fit and it isn’t coming to the US. The announcement also doubles as the final nail in the coffin for an entire category of cars that have existed for generations. The subcompact car is basically dead in the US now. As my former colleague at Jalopnik wrote, the Fit joins the Chevy Sonic, Ford Fiesta, and Toyota Yaris on the chopping block, while the Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, and Chevy Spark are likely on their way out.
Some car companies, like Ford, GM, and Chrysler are, in fact, no longer car companies in the strictest sense. In the not too distant future, they plan on only selling SUVs, pickup trucks, and vans.

Car companies say these small cars don’t sell well enough or make enough money in the US. It is true that smaller cars have low profit margins, especially compared to SUVs and pickups. This is perfectly illustrated by the fact that Honda’s entry-level vehicle will now be the “compact crossover” HR-V that is just a slightly taller and longer out-of-proportion Fit and costs $4,000 more.

Do You Live In the US and Want A Small, Affordable Car? Too Bad.

Car companies think Americans only like driving big cars, but that’s because they don’t bring the good small cars here to begin with.

www.vice.com

 

[Chz]

Here. have a read and learn something:

Do You Live In the US and Want A Small, Affordable Car? Too Bad.

Car companies think Americans only like driving big cars, but that’s because they don’t bring the good small cars here to begin with.

www.vice.com

What does the US have to do with your above quoted "Why are small European cars disappearing?" (spoiler: they're not)
You've just quoted that small cars don't make any money in the US. And the reason is that they don't sell. You've cause and effect reversed.
It's not news that Americans buy silly cars. They have done for 30+ years now. The issue is what can we do in the UK and possibly the EU about it? And the solution has to come from understanding the problem. If you have your cause and effect reversed, your solution won't work.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Those articles claim a lot, with little proof.
Fact. Small cars still exist. There is no conspiracy to eliminate them.
Fact. They don't sell as well as larger models.
Fact. Larger production runs = more amortization of fixed costs = more profit. Yes, they're profit-hungry bastards, but so long as there's money to be made in small cars they'll still sell them.

Now part of the problem here is that these things were written 2021/2022. When the car industry had a massive parts shortage and people were waiting months for even luxury, high-profit marques. So yes, during that time the parts were most definitely shunted to the luxury (and thus big, big has always been luxury) end of things. But that's not a conspiracy to kill small cars. Renault still sells a Twingo. Volkswagen still sells an Up!. Peugeot still sells a 108. Ford axed the Fiesta mainly due to a financial crush at US HQ. Kia still sells a Picanto. Fiat still sells a 500. Citroen has axed the C1/C2, but they're the same as Audi - they're now Peugeot's premium line. (Buy a 108/208, they're the same thing) Vauxhall still sells a Corsa. Hyundai still sells an i10. BMW and MB got out of the small car business quite a while ago. It doesn't match their brand. Nissan still sells a Micra. Honda still sells a Jazz. And on and on...

Fact: it's always complete bollocks whenever someone intimates that trends in capitalism are entirely consumer-led.

 

[Chz]

Fact: it's always complete bollocks whenever someone intimates that trends in capitalism are entirely consumer-led.

Nothing is ever entirely consumer led, because someone has to make it in the first place; but face the facts - SUVs cost more than the cars they're based on, and those cars still exist outside of the NA manufacturers. And yet, people still buy more of the larger more expensive vehicle. Now if the motor industry was offering discounts on SUVs, you could argue they're ramming them down our throats. But they're not. They're milking the craze for all its worth, but it's clearly not solely of their own manufacture because people are price-sensitive on big-ticket items and yet they opt for the more expensive option more and more. Unless they're filling them with nicotine or something, people are choosing, of their own free will, to buy bigger cars. Without incentives. Heck, it's a great time to buy a normal car because they get discounted all over the place due to them being unable to move them.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Nothing is ever entirely consumer led, because someone has to make it in the first place; but face the facts - SUVs cost more than the cars they're based on, and those cars still exist outside of the NA manufacturers. And yet, people still buy more of the larger more expensive vehicle. Now if the motor industry was offering discounts on SUVs, you could argue they're ramming them down our throats. But they're not. They're milking the craze for all its worth, but it's clearly not solely of their own manufacture because people are price-sensitive on big-ticket items and yet they opt for the more expensive option more and more. Unless they're filling them with nicotine or something, people are choosing, of their own free will, to buy bigger cars. Without incentives. Heck, it's a great time to buy a normal car because they get discounted all over the place due to them being unable to move them.

I don't think it's a great time to buy any car if you're on a budget.

 

[Chz]

I'm always amazed that so many new cars get sold every year. I've never bought a new car. No-one in my family or circle of friends has ever bought a new car. And yet the used market (outside of Covid years) seems well-supplied.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I'm always amazed that so many new cars get sold every year. I've never bought a new car. No-one in my family or circle of friends has ever bought a new car. And yet the used market (outside of Covid years) seems well-supplied.

PCP or something. People have tried to explain it to me over the years about what a good deal it is, but whenever I've done the sums, your still paying a shed load to have something with a new plate. Apparently higher intrests rates are starting to bite it though, which is a contributing factor to the massive rise in the price of second hand cars. They don't seem to have dropped much since covid.

 

[Chz]

PCP or something. People have tried to explain it to me over the years about what a good deal it is, but whenever I've done the sums, your still paying a shed load to have something with a new plate. Apparently higher intrests rates are starting to bite it though, which is a contributing factor to the massive rise in the price of second hand cars. They don't seem to have dropped much since covid.

And covid used prices were... well, some of them cost more than buying a new car! The catch of course being that you could have the used car now or the new car in 8 months. I try to have something in mind for the day when someone inevitably writes off my car (doesn't take much for a 12 year-old compact to get written off!), and it's gone down a few thousand in the past year or so - adjusting for age - but nowhere near as much as it should have.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

And covid used prices were... well, some of them cost more than buying a new car! The catch of course being that you could have the used car now or the new car in 8 months. I try to have something in mind for the day when someone inevitably writes off my car (doesn't take much for a 12 year-old compact to get written off!), and it's gone down a few thousand in the past year or so - adjusting for age - but nowhere near as much as it should have.

Although something that will make people on this thread glad is the Range Rover prices are apparently plummeting as they are so easy to nick you can't get insurance on them any more with out crying.

I plan to run my car into the ground. It's one of the newer cars I've ever owned (8 years old) so hopefully many years yet.

I think it's a great idea we tax new cars on emmisons, but it's seems counter intuitive to do it old petrols. My partners is 2003 and pays as much road tax a month as I do a year. But the environmental costs of scrapping it and buying a new one are fsr higher

 

[editor]

What does the US have to do with your above quoted "Why are small European cars disappearing?" (spoiler: they're not)
You've just quoted that small cars don't make any money in the US. And the reason is that they don't sell. You've cause and effect reversed.
It's not news that Americans buy silly cars. They have done for 30+ years now. The issue is what can we do in the UK and possibly the EU about it? And the solution has to come from understanding the problem. If you have your cause and effect reversed, your solution won't work.

I didn't realise I'd offered a 'solution' apart from the obvious 'buy smaller cars/don't buy SUVs/walk/cycle/use public transport more.'

Meanwhile:

Murray believes that the reason the Ford Fiesta, the popular hatchback, has been discontinued is not because people stopped wanting to buy it, but because Ford stopped wanting to make it: “It’s the inexorable logic of business that you will focus your productive capacity and marketing spend on your most profitable product.”

 

[editor]

Fact: it's always complete bollocks whenever someone intimates that trends in capitalism are entirely consumer-led.

Indeed:

If the art of consumer capitalism is to produce solutions to hitherto nonexistent needs, then there are few more impressive examples of this process than the rise of the SUV. Although globally they are a 21st-century phenomenon, their history is rooted in the mid-20th. The original SUV was the military jeep that served as the primary, light 4x4 vehicle of the US army and allied forces during the second world war. The crossover to civilian use did not really start until the rise of the Jeep Cherokee in the US in the 1980s

According to Andrew Simms and Leo Murray, in their forthcoming book Badvertising: Polluting Our Minds and Fuelling Climate Chaos, between 1990 and 2001, $9bn (£7.4bn) was spent on advertising off-road-themed cars to an audience that hadn’t before shown much interest in driving down that path. In this century, SUV advertising has eclipsed all other car promotion.

Monsters of the road: what should the UK do about SUVs?

They have higher emissions, hog roadspace and are more dangerous for other road users. Yet SUVs are selling better than ever. As calls for curbs increase, some people are taking matters into their own hands

www.theguardian.com

 

[Chz]

I didn't realise I'd offered a 'solution' apart from the obvious 'buy smaller cars/don't buy SUVs/walk/cycle/use public transport more.'

Meanwhile:

I think you've had a lot of people in favour (self included) of measures like quadrupling the top tiers of VED and one-off purchase taxes on vehicles over a certain size. What is true is that you're not going to easily convince people to give up things they like. Because we're now far enough into the trend that we can look at sales and say that people who've previously bought an SUV tend to buy another one. They're pleased with their purchase, so they won't stop without a bit of nudging.

And I don't think "Murray believes" is a useful contribution.

 

[editor]

I think you've had a lot of people in favour (self included) of measures like quadrupling the top tiers of VED and one-off purchase taxes on vehicles over a certain size. What is true is that you're not going to easily convince people to give up things they like. Because we're now far enough into the trend that we can look at sales and say that people who've previously bought an SUV tend to buy another one. They're pleased with their purchase, so they won't stop without a bit of nudging.

And I don't think "Murray believes" is a useful contribution.

So you still believe that it's the market driving the increase in SUV sales and the decline in the production of small cars, yes?

PS I think Murray might now just a bit more than you about the topic. His co author Andrew Simms is an author, analyst and co-director of the New Weather Institute. He is a research associate with the Centre for Global Political Economy at the University of Sussex and Fellow at the New Economics Foundation. Pretty sure he's more knowledgeable about you on this subject too.

 

[Chz]

So you still believe that it's the market driving the increase in SUV sales and the decline in the production of small cars, yes?

PS I think Murray might now just a bit more than you about the topic. His co author Andrew Simms is an author, analyst and co-director of the New Weather Institute. He is a research associate with the Centre for Global Political Economy at the University of Sussex and Fellow at the New Economics Foundation. Pretty sure he's more knowledgeable about you on this subject too.

Scholars bullshit with the absolute best of us. That's why they cite their sources when they mean it. I've yet to see evidence. Everything stated screams correlation is not causation.

Alright, let's flip this around. What do you think is causing people to buy larger cars? At the smallest end, they're larger for safety reasons; but beyond the subcompact class, people are buying larger vehicles in general. Why is that? It's not just advertising - Ford is the canonical example that you can't sell something people don't want, no matter how much press coverage you give it. Edsel is still a byword for colossal flop. They're not discounted, in fact they're more expensive. So if people aren't buying it because it's more economical, and your opinion is that it's not because they want it. What is the secret then?

And let's be clear - the times of when people started to heavily buy SUVs and when some (not all, not even most) manufacturers stopped small car production definitely suggests a cause - > effect relationship. There's zero case to suggest small cars declined to force people to buy SUVs in the first place. Or if there is, there should certainly be some evidence to cite of it.

 

[hash tag]

This is nothing new as far as I was aware pavement parking has always been banned unless specifically authorised
Edinburgh to be first Scottish city to ban pavement parking

Pavement parking: options for change

www.gov.uk

 

[Orang Utan]

This is nothing new as far as I was aware pavement parking has always been banned unless specifically authorised
Edinburgh to be first Scottish city to ban pavement parking

Pavement parking: options for change

www.gov.uk

It’s not illegal outside London

 

[stavros]

My partners is 2003 and pays as much road tax a month as I do a year.

I imagine it's a similar amount of road tax to what's paid by everyone, including non-drivers.

ETA: Sorry that that sounds snide. It's a comment on a much repeated myth, rather than you yourself.

 

[Hollis]

Sounds like a plan.. referendum on SUVs in Paris.

 

[Chz]

Sounds like a plan.. referendum on SUVs in Paris.

Bit disappointing that it doesn't apply to residents' permits. Surely Parisians would happily vote to hike parking fees for all outsiders' cars? I suppose it's to make sure it passes.

 

[kebabking]

Scholars bullshit with the absolute best of us. That's why they cite their sources when they mean it. I've yet to see evidence. Everything stated screams correlation is not causation.

Alright, let's flip this around. What do you think is causing people to buy larger cars? At the smallest end, they're larger for safety reasons; but beyond the subcompact class, people are buying larger vehicles in general. Why is that? It's not just advertising - Ford is the canonical example that you can't sell something people don't want, no matter how much press coverage you give it. Edsel is still a byword for colossal flop. They're not discounted, in fact they're more expensive. So if people aren't buying it because it's more economical, and your opinion is that it's not because they want it. What is the secret then?

And let's be clear - the times of when people started to heavily buy SUVs and when some (not all, not even most) manufacturers stopped small car production definitely suggests a cause - > effect relationship. There's zero case to suggest small cars declined to force people to buy SUVs in the first place. Or if there is, there should certainly be some evidence to cite of it.

I have little interest in the argument of chicken or egg, all I'm interested in is that when I go to buy a car, I go on Autotrader, put my budget and maximum age and milage in, 80% of what comes up is SUV/crossovers, and my choice of what I actually want - an estate - is pretty limited.

Personally, I think that's it's likely to be both push and pull - I think people do enjoy the higher driving position, I think people like to drive something that feels a bit more adventurous, rather than the old 'rep mobile' of the Mondeo and Insignia estates, I think there's certainly an element of something that looks a bit Range Rover like on a third of the money - but I also think that the car manufacturers know they can sell a crossover for more, with a greater profit margin, than they can sell an estate for despite them costing the same to produce.

Chicken/egg, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

[editor]

Scholars bullshit with the absolute best of us. That's why they cite their sources when they mean it. I've yet to see evidence. Everything stated screams correlation is not causation.

Alright, let's flip this around. What do you think is causing people to buy larger cars? At the smallest end, they're larger for safety reasons; but beyond the subcompact class, people are buying larger vehicles in general. Why is that? It's not just advertising - Ford is the canonical example that you can't sell something people don't want, no matter how much press coverage you give it. Edsel is still a byword for colossal flop. They're not discounted, in fact they're more expensive. So if people aren't buying it because it's more economical, and your opinion is that it's not because they want it. What is the secret then?

And let's be clear - the times of when people started to heavily buy SUVs and when some (not all, not even most) manufacturers stopped small car production definitely suggests a cause - > effect relationship. There's zero case to suggest small cars declined to force people to buy SUVs in the first place. Or if there is, there should certainly be some evidence to cite of it.

So let's get this straight: a manufacture has two product lines. One brings in a small profit, the other brings in a big profit.

You're actually arguing that they're going to let the market decide which ones they'd like to buy, and not employ all their powers of persuasion and marketing prowess to ensure that consumers start buying the product that brings them far bigger profits?

How do you think the shareholders would feel about such a policy?

 

[pinkmonkey]

How tall are we talking here? According to the IIHS, the average US passenger vehicle has gotten about four inches wider, 10 inches longer, eight inches taller, and 1,000 pounds heavier over the past 30 years. Many vehicles are more than 40 inches tall at the leading edge of the hood. And on some large pickups, the hoods are almost at eye level for many adults.

Truck bloat is killing us, new crash data reveals

We love our big, deadly trucks, don’t we, folks?

www.theverge.com