Stupid, stupid fuckers.

[danny la rouge]

yet again you make the logical fallcy mistake of assuming understanda ble means excuseable...

I don't think you've read my posts, Garf. I specifically said: "There is a difference between understanding and excusing".

These were sickening murders. Yes, there is an on-going historical context. Yes, the act was borne of desperation. Yes, the mainstream media will by and large run with the Israeli state version of "see what we've got to put up with". All these points and more are discussed on thread after thread, and I had thought I could count on posters here taking some things as read.

But at the end of the day, I still condemn these murders.

 

[selamlar]

The phrase zionist ex-fascist comes to mine. He's ex-Kahanist. Look em up

other phrases that come to mind are dishonest and unable to ever provide a source or to use the quote function

Ah! Compulsive liar and murderous fuck, then. All the more reason, etc.

 

[Fuchs66]

@ Garf

I am not in that situation nor have I been (have you?) and I certainly would not like to be and therefore cant say exactly how I would react. But I am pretty sure I would not resort to the methods that the Palastinians seem to rely on.

 

[danny la rouge]

But I am pretty sure I would not resort to the methods that the Palastinians seem to rely on.

You can't pin this act on "the" Palestinians. It was the act of one Palestinian, and apparently - according to the BBC today - "a previously unknown group called the "Jalil Freedom Battalions - the Martyrs of Imad Mughniyeh and Gaza". They were certainly previously unknown to me.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I don't think you've read my posts, Garf. I specifically said: "There is a difference between understanding and excusing".

These were sickening murders. Yes, there is an on-going historical context. Yes, the act was borne of desperation. Yes, the mainstream media will by and large run with the Israeli state version of "see what we've got to put up with". All these points and more are discussed on thread after thread, and I had thought I could count on posters here taking some things as read.

But at the end of the day, I still condemn these murders.

i'm glad you can sit ther ein your ivory tower looking down on us all making these pronoucements, love....

I'm sure the smugness fator must be cheering your soul...



face facts. this will happen and continue to happen. until Israel resovles there issues of the illgal and utterly pointless occupation of a seperate nation.

this couplled with the recent other deaths means the totally is what? 15 to 120 that's 8 to 1 so 8 dead sand niggers is worth 1 red sea pedestrain is what your ivroy tower condemnation is saying...

8 to 1...

and you think this is a reasonable reaction on your part.

i call it moral realtiyive and cultral eleitism myself...

 

[danny la rouge]

i'm glad you can sit ther ein your ivory tower looking down on us all making these pronoucements, love.....

What on earth are you on about, Garf?

You seem to imply I am giving this undue attention. I have for decades actively condemned the actions of the Israeli state. Decades. I am well aware, thank you, of what's going on in Gaza.

In deploring this act I in no way condone the actions of the Israeli state, or seek to belittle the decades of suffering by the Palestinian people. And frankly to suggest that deploring this act implies that I do condone or belittle is bizarre.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

@ Garf

I am not in that situation nor have I been (have you?) and I certainly would not like to be and therefore cant say exactly how I would react. But I am pretty sure I would not resort to the methods that the Palastinians seem to rely on.

i've been ther eif aced the bullying the tear gas the shooting the house demolitions i have seen good friends arrested for being palestinian i have sat with fathers and mothers who sons were shot for plowing their fields and who were threatened with death themselves if they ever went into the field again...

I've seen the holes in the reffugee camps where 'militaints' were killed (on top of like all the refugee camps the 4 other dwellign houseing some thing in the region of 8 other families... i have seen the football teams the basketball teams who are world class but aren't allowed to travel outside of palestine for fear of being refuse return access by israel.

i know for a fact that you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talkign abotu or any idea of the level of fear hatred and oppression you'd be placed under to be in that sitation an i know that you don't because the idea of retalitaiton in this manner doesn't enter your head you cannot conceive it.

which means you can't know it.

or understand it.

and your words are hollow as a result.

you with a comfortable life in the western world are immune from such things.

i defy anyone to see it with their own eyes and walk away and honestly say i would not. as i have said it's a credit to the palestinain outlook that more don't ...

 

[Fuchs66]

You can't pin this act on "the" Palestinians. It was the act of one Palestinian, and apparently - according to the BBC today - "a previously unknown group called the "Jalil Freedom Battalions - the Martyrs of Imad Mughniyeh and Gaza". They were certainly previously unknown to me.

Sorry was just shorter than writing Palastinian non-conventional militant groups, I wasn't implying that every single Palastinian was a wild eyed baby eating monster. I include the cross border home-made rocket attacks to this.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What on earth are you on about, Garf?

You seem to imply I am giving this undue attention. I have for decades actively condemned the actions of the Israeli state. Decades. I am well aware, thank you, of what's going on in Gaza.

In deploring this act I in no way condone the actions of the Israeli state, or seek to belittle the decades of suffering by the Palestinian people. And frankly to suggest that deploring this act implies that I do condone or belittle is bizarre.

danny you fundamentally don't understand you say it's contemptable. which shows you don't understand that you are in someway elevated about this and therefore can be objective.

these things are all circumstantial, and given the situation utterly understandable. if it's understandable then sadly you cannot condem it without also condeming yourself for understanding where the action came from...

you might be a good liberal and buy into the cause wave the flag but your language gives you away....

 

[Fuchs66]

i've been ther eif aced the bullying the tear gas the shooting the house demolitions i have seen good friends arrested for being palestinian i have sat with fathers and mothers who sons were shot for plowing their fields and who were threatened with death themselves if they ever went into the field again...

I've seen the holes in the reffugee camps where 'militaints' were killed (on top of like all the refugee camps the 4 other dwellign houseing some thing in the region of 8 other families... i have seen the football teams the basketball teams who are world class but aren't allowed to travel outside of palestine for fear of being refuse return access by israel.

i know for a fact that you don't have the first fucking clue what you are talkign abotu or any idea of the level of fear hatred and oppression you'd be placed under to be in that sitation an i know that you don't because the idea of retalitaiton in this manner doesn't enter your head you cannot conceive it.

which means you can't know it.

or understand it.

and your words are hollow as a result.

you with a comfortable life in the western world are immune from such things.

i defy anyone to see it with their own eyes and walk away and honestly say i would not. as i have said it's a credit to the palestinain outlook that more don't ...

Did you say that with a convincing 1000 yard stare?

OK you've convinced me marching into a school with an AK and randomly shooting students is just as viable a tactic as throwing unguided, unreliable home-made solid fuel rockets over a border in the general direction of civilian areas.

I am not an Israeli apologist but neither am I a Hamas cheerleader, and you know very little about what I've experienced in my life matey.

 

[danny la rouge]

if it's understandable then sadly you cannot condem it without also condeming yourself for understanding where the action came from...

Don't be silly. That's an example of moral relativism, as opposed to where you threw the accusation into a frankly rambling post. As you correctly said earlier, understanding is not the same as excusing. Try at least to be consistent.

Do you think these killings were helpful or excusable? Of course you don't. The difference is you are afraid to say so in case somebody like you thinks you're an apologist for the Israeli occupation.

 

[tangentlama]

Tangent: "As far as the responsibility lies with the officers who ordered the...": Are you talking of the poor baby girl who was hit by shrapnel in Gaza?

No, I'm just talking in general, that the conscripts do nothing without the say-so of their superior officers - in line-management style.

I'm forever hoping for an end to conscription so that Israeli 18-21 year olds can be at University, like their counterparts in the other democratic countries. Hoping for an end to radicalisation of Palestinian youths too. I'm not envisaging an overnight change, but looking for all youths on both sides to experience a fear-free environment where education becomes the main priority of what ought to be university/college age kids.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No, I'm just talking in general, that the conscripts do nothing without the say-so of their superior officers - in line-management style.

I'm forever hoping for an end to conscription so that Israeli 18-21 year olds can be at University, like their counterparts in the other democratic countries. Hoping for an end to radicalisation of Palestinian youths too. I'm not envisaging an overnight change, but looking for all youths on both sides to experience a fear-free environment where education becomes the main priority of what ought to be university/college age kids.

and consdierign the suicide levels within the army i'd exceptt hat there is a great deal of Israelis who'd feel the same...

 

[Spion]

marching into a school with an AK and randomly shooting students is just as viable a tactic as throwing unguided, unreliable home-made solid fuel rockets over a border in the general direction of civilian areas.

You've got a point there. Both are methods of flinging bits of metal at people with the aim of killing and maiming. Hence I think all the moral handwringing over this shooting is just piffle. They're both desparate acts of the weak in an extremely asymmetrical conflict.

The real point is: why did this act happen?

The answer: because of the intolerable conditions the Palestinians have been forced to live under for 60 years following the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 of them from hundreds of villages and towns in 1948. They've seen generations of their families live in torment at the hands of the Israeli state. It's no wonder they cheered.

The solution: for the Palestinians to get some justice in the form of return or compensation for the refugees

(and as an aside, it's hard not to draw draw the conclusion - going by the amount and tone of news coverage to - that 8 dead jewish taliban's lives are worth far more than more than 100 dead Gazans. Sickening.)

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The difference is you are afraid to say so in case somebody like you thinks you're an apologist for the Israeli occupation.

I cannot condem the attacks as i don't live in an abstract, they are entirely the direct result and reaction which the situation has created, the death of any more people is unwanted however it's entirely liekly to continue until the balance of power and the equity of the situation is restored to that which would be considered fair and reasonable.

how could they not.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I am not an Israeli apologist but neither am I a Hamas cheerleader, and you know very little about what I've experienced in my life matey.

yet you are incapalbe of seeing it for what it is...

so i have plenty of evidence within your posts thus far that appearntly what you have experinced in your life isn't comparable or hasn't given you a level of empathy, which is a shame... considering...

 

[agricola]

Did you say that with a convincing 1000 yard stare?

OK you've convinced me marching into a school with an AK and randomly shooting students is just as viable a tactic as throwing unguided, unreliable home-made solid fuel rockets over a border in the general direction of civilian areas.

I am not an Israeli apologist but neither am I a Hamas cheerleader, and you know very little about what I've experienced in my life matey.

Garfield and others are correct that this was expected given what the Israelis had been doing in Gaza over the past few weeks, and there is also an element of hypocrisy from the various world leaders, all of whom have condemned this attack despite being far less vocal about the repeated attacks (which yesterday were alleged to have directly resulted in 120 Palestinian deaths) and siege conditions (leading to even more deaths as a result of these conditions) within Gaza at the moment.

It does not excuse it - the victims were teenagers, after all - but it does suggest that the attack and the reasons for it were not only understandable but (sadly) very, very predictable.

There is also the nonsense that this attack will not delay the peace process, despite the fact that Hamas (who, like it or not, are in control of Gaza as a result of democratic elections) are not and were never part of "the deal". The bad part for us is that the West (and especially the UK) appeared to have a good chance to form a relationship with Hamas after the Alan Johnson kidnapping / release, and yet ever since then we have deluded ourselves into pretending that Hamas - and by extension everyone else in the Gaza area, do not exist - to the extent that acquiescing in putting them under siege has become acceptable.

 

[Fuchs66]

You've got a point there. Both are methods of flinging bits of metal at people with the aim of killing and maiming. Hence I think all the moral handwringing over this shooting is just piffle. They're both desparate acts of the weak in an extremely asymmetrical conflict.

The real point is: why did this act happen?

The answer: because of the intolerable conditions the Palestinians have been forced to live under for 60 years following the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 of them from hundreds of villages and towns in 1948. They've seen generations of their families live in torment at the hands of the Israeli state. It's no wonder they cheered.

The solution: for the Palestinians to get some justice in the form of return or compensation for the refugees

(and as an aside, it's hard not to draw draw the conclusion - going by the amount and tone of news coverage to - that 8 dead jewish taliban's lives are worth far more than more than 100 dead Gazans. Sickening.)

Dont get me wrong the Palastinians have been at the wrong end of a whole series of injustices, including those brought about by the actions of their own leaders. They need some form of justice from the Israeli state BUT they aren't always acting in a way that will help their own situation and bring the necessary support from the rest of the world.

The fact that some cheered isn't a problem to me and very similar IMO to the fucking idiots who cheered the old "Gotcha" headlines to the sinking of the Belgrano.

And I also agree with you about newscoverage it is very rarely balanced or fair, thats why I take everything I read with at least a handfull of salt and try to source my information from as broad a spectrum of media as possible.

 

[Random]

If the Israelis had hit a place like this it would have been described as a 'terrorist training camp', and the dead as 'millitants'. It was a hard-right school for raising people to become settlers in occupied Palestinian land.

Of course, the shooting of these young people is a terrible act, and will not help the Palestinians, but, as with the deaths of UK teenagers in the UK army, the real blame for these young Israelis' deaths lies in the political and military leaders who use these teenagers as pawns to achieve greater political power.

 

[Fuchs66]

yet you are incapalbe of seeing it for what it is...

so i have plenty of evidence within your posts thus far that appearntly what you have experinced in your life isn't comparable or hasn't given you a level of empathy, which is a shame... considering...

I dont have to jump off a cliff to know it'll hurt when I land. You dont have a clue about what I have experienced, if you are relying on my posts here or elsewhere in the net.

It is pretty clear why this happened and why the choice of an easy target for maximum effect was chosen, I just think it was wrong, for the victims and also for the Palastinians that this was supposed, in some warped logic, to help.

 

[agricola]

It is pretty clear why this happened and why the choice of an easy target for maximum effect was chosen, I just think it was wrong, for the victims and also for the Palastinians that this was supposed, in some warped logic, to help.

I dont think this was ever designed "to help".

Ironically, the pressures on the Israeli and Hamas political leaderships are very similar - both sides need to justify their existence by demonstrating how they are hitting back at "the enemy" - the Israelis by attacking Gaza, building the wall etc and Hamas by encouraging the rocket fire and claiming responsibility (even if they didnt do it) for attacks of this kind. Otherwise both would be removed and replaced by groups who could claim to do a better job (which is why Fatah, despite its involvement in the peace process, still carries out attacks).

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Dont get me wrong the Palastinians have been at the wrong end of a whole series of injustices, including those brought about by the actions of their own leaders. They need some form of justice from the Israeli state BUT they aren't always acting in a way that will help their own situation and bring the necessary support from the rest of the world.

that's good of you to assuiesse to them....

who are you to tell the palestinians who've elected their own leaders based on a mandate to return to the actions of the PLO after the years of inablity of the US sponsored peace process cutting huge swathes into what little they have left.

The fact that some cheered isn't a problem to me and very similar IMO to the fucking idiots who cheered the old "Gotcha" headlines to the sinking of the Belgrano.

name one. none of this straw man bollocks who's cheering them on.

your prejudices and rhetoric are showing, dearie...

And I also agree with you about newscoverage it is very rarely balanced or fair, thats why I take everything I read with at least a handfull of salt and try to source my information from as broad a spectrum of media as possible.

so long as it agrees and confirms the opinion and sanctimony you already have right...

 

[Spion]

Dont get me wrong the Palastinians have been at the wrong end of a whole series of injustices, including those brought about by the actions of their own leaders.

Whatever the faults - and they are many - of their leadership over the decades they were not the ones who ethnically cleansed Palestinians from their homes. There is a clear oppressor and oppressed in this issue

They need some form of justice from the Israeli state BUT they aren't always acting in a way that will help their own situation and bring the necessary support from the rest of the world

I think you're right, but I guess many Palestinians will at least see the benefit in that it is extracting a price from Israel and stopping the world from just letting them quietly sink down the plughole.

Personally I think the most productive method of achieving their goals would be mass protests by Palestinians to break the walls and the blockades and the checkpoints and to appeal to Israelis not to shoot them or starve them (like these fellahs are attempting to gain support for).

 

[Spion]

If the Israelis had hit a place like this it would have been described as a 'terrorist training camp', and the dead as 'millitants'. It was a hard-right school for raising people to become settlers in occupied Palestinian land.

Exactly

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Personally I think the most productive method of achieving their goals would be mass protests by Palestinians to break the walls and the blockades and the checkpoints and to appeal to Israelis not to shoot them or starve them (like these fellahs are attempting to gain support for).

sadly i am convinced that it's going to take the complete or near total destruction of gaza and everyone in it for the world to finally step in and even when they do step in it'll end up like afgahnistain...

 

[Spion]

sadly i am convinced that it's going to take the complete or near total destruction of gaza and everyone in it for the world to finally step in and even when they do step in it'll end up like afgahnistain...

oh, my nightmare 'solution' occurs in 20-40 years time, the US in on its uppers struggling to retain influence over middle eastern oil, while a rapidly-rising-to-superpower China is winning easy favour with the Arab world and arms their armies and the Palestinians to the teeth, who then go and do to the jews exactly what was done to them before, all as part of the PRC's programme to wipe out US influence in the region.

 

[Fuchs66]

that's good of you to assuiesse to them....

who are you to tell the palestinians who've elected their own leaders based on a mandate to return to the actions of the PLO after the years of inablity of the US sponsored peace process cutting huge swathes into what little they have left.

I dont recall mentioning any method of bringing peace to the middle east, you're putting words in my mouth there.

name one. none of this straw man bollocks who's cheering them on.

your prejudices and rhetoric are showing, dearie...

I was refering to Spions post where was stated:

The answer: because of the intolerable conditions the Palestinians have been forced to live under for 60 years following the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 of them from hundreds of villages and towns in 1948. They've seen generations of their families live in torment at the hands of the Israeli state. It's no wonder they cheered.

I do apologise if you felt compelled to jump to conclusions.

so long as it agrees and confirms the opinion and sanctimony you already have right...

Not at all I can admit I am wrong, can you or are you so entrenched in your position that no matter how wrong and in the end self-destructive their actions are, the Palastinian militants can do no wrong.

 

[goldenecitrone]

oh, my nightmare 'solution' occurs in 20-40 years time, the US in on its uppers struggling to retain influence over middle eastern oil, while a rapidly-rising-to-superpower China is winning easy favour with the Arab world and arms their armies and the Palestinians to the teeth, who then go and do to the jews exactly what was done to them before, all as part of the PRC's programme to wipe out US influence in the region.

I wonder what would happen if the Iranians got hold of a nuclear weapon. Would MAD kick in and get everyone negotiating for just settlements before it was all too late?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I dont recall mentioning any method of bringing peace to the middle east, you're putting words in my mouth there.

the meanign of your posts is entirely transparaent...

I was refering to Spions post where was stated:
I do apologise if you felt compelled to jump to conclusions.

ditto...

Not at all I can admit I am wrong, can you or are you so entrenched in your position that no matter how wrong and in the end self-destructive their actions are, the Palastinian militants can do no wrong.

again your prejuidices are showing supprot fo r palestinians and not condeming their actions = capitualtion...

useless troll 0/10

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I wonder what would happen if the Iranians got hold of a nuclear weapon. Would MAD kick in and get everyone negotiating for just settlements before it was all too late?

Iran havign a nuke is immaterial really if they did launch at israel they'd posion themselves too ...