Sporting dominance

[stavros]

How do you feel when a team or an individual dominates their competition? This could be due to fulfilling natural talent - Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Yelena Isinbayeva - or external circumstances tipping the scales - Saracens and Manchester City currently, Lance Armstrong previously. Leave aside the morals of how the dominance came about; how does it feel to you as a sporting spectacle?

I'll be honest and say that it doesn't pull me in to see anyone reign supreme. I disengaged from Formula 1 during the Schumacher years, and haven't gone back, and similar happened as a child when Stephen Hendry ground out World Championship after World Championship, although I'm fully back on board with snooker now. On the other hand it was kind of fascinating to see how far Bolt, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Edwards, etc could push their respective world records.

I thought about this watching the Cup Final today, and I note editor commented upon Manchester City's trajectory being boring on that thread. What do you all think?

 

[weltweit]

I think in F1 it is clear that it is a team sport, a driver can't dominate unless they also have a dominant car and team, you only have to look at Mercedes and Hamilton, dominant for years with the best car and a capable driver, but now the lead in the car has fallen off and he can't even get on the podium.

There are many drivers in F1 that given a great car can podium, just look at Alonso right now and of course Verstappen, dominant right now because as had been the case with Hamilton, Verstappen now is in the top car.

 

[The39thStep]

How do you feel when a team or an individual dominates their competition? This could be due to fulfilling natural talent - Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Yelena Isinbayeva - or external circumstances tipping the scales - Saracens and Manchester City currently, Lance Armstrong previously. Leave aside the morals of how the dominance came about; how does it feel to you as a sporting spectacle?

I'll be honest and say that it doesn't pull me in to see anyone reign supreme. I disengaged from Formula 1 during the Schumacher years, and haven't gone back, and similar happened as a child when Stephen Hendry ground out World Championship after World Championship, although I'm fully back on board with snooker now. On the other hand it was kind of fascinating to see how far Bolt, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Edwards, etc could push their respective world records.

I thought about this watching the Cup Final today, and I note editor commented upon Manchester City's trajectory being boring on that thread. What do you all think?

Editor was a Man Utd fan . Actually, the Arsenal/ City race for the title was exciting and only decided with about three games to go

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm a Hearts supporter, have been for 50+ years. We are not going to win the league, so in Scotland, the real contest is for third ;place. (We were fourth this year.).

 

[The39thStep]

I didn't find the Mike Tyson years boring either

 

[Steel Icarus]

Depends why you watch sport. I love it when teams I particularly like win or athletes I like do well - I'll hope Liverpool win or Dina Asher-Smith does well - but for me it's about seeing people do extraordinary things and appreciating that. I never found it boring watching Manchester United tearing up the league in the mid 90s, or David Rudisha running away from the fastest 800m field in history, or Nadia Comaneci getting perfect 10s. Even with Liverpool I find it hard to get into bickering with "rivals". I just like sport at its best, largely irrespective of the whos and hows.

 

[JimW]

Nice to see someone not Chinese at the finals of a table tennis event. Chinese supporters tend to enjoy a bit of foreign opposition for once too.

 

[planetgeli]

Depends why you watch sport. I love it when teams I particularly like win or athletes I like do well - I'll hope Liverpool win or Dina Asher-Smith does well - but for me it's about seeing people do extraordinary things and appreciating that. I never found it boring watching Manchester United tearing up the league in the mid 90s, or David Rudisha running away from the fastest 800m field in history, or Nadia Comaneci getting perfect 10s. Even with Liverpool I find it hard to get into bickering with "rivals". I just like sport at its best, largely irrespective of the whos and hows.

Largely agree with the gist of this, but can't support Nadia Comaneci geting 10s. Mainly because Olga Korbut didn't.

Yesterday's final was a weird one for me. Can't stand either side, wanted them both to lose. But that first volley...that's the kind of thing you can't help but appreciate.

Also, football tacticians, answer me this. Man City's whole schtick seems to involve (as well as having the best players) just getting three men on the opposition when they get the ball. How do they do this so consistently? Is it Pep's tactical genius or do these (highest) skilled players also somehow have the best work-rate? It seems almost incredible that they can keep doing this time after time.

But yeah, just love highly skilful sport, whoever is doing it. Even Man Utd (who I have generally hated with a passion) were impossible not to appreciate in the 90s.

 

[strung out]

Think I'm basically the opposite of most people on the thread.

I basically give zero shits about the quality of the sport, I just want decent competition. Drama, nail-biting finishes, unpredictable results, terrible defending, flukey goals, anything that keeps me on the edge of my seat.

Hated Spain's success in 2008-2012, loved Greece in 2004. Bored shitless by Manchester City, absolutely loved Leicester's title win through the usual top 6 being absolutely atrocious.

Even the Liverpool/Man City battles that went the distance were ultimately pretty tedious because they both just kept winning.

Fingers crossed for an Inter win in the CL final, and the implosion of every decent team in the PL next season.

 

[A380]

Even when Sarries dominated domestic rugby they were a long way from unbeatable.

 

[ska invita]

I'm a Hearts supporter, have been for 50+ years. We are not going to win the league, so in Scotland, the real contest is for third ;place. (We were fourth this year.).

Yeah Scottish Prem league must be the most sewn up football league in the world

 

[kabbes]

Another perspective: I lost interest in sport generally at some point in my late 30s or early 40s. I used to be a real devotee — I’d watch anything, any time and love it all. Then, over a short period of time, it all just started to seem silly, like watching school kids in a sports day. Plus it keeps coming round year after year anyway, so who cares who wins this one? The only thing I have left that I still enjoy is test match cricket, for some reason.

So even the sense of excitement from a close competition only matters if, in some way, the whole thing matters. Once you’ve lost that, even a dramatic and epic battle is dull.

 

[ska invita]

Think I'm basically the opposite of most people on the thread.

I basically give zero shits about the quality of the sport, I just want decent competition. Drama, nail-biting finishes, unpredictable results, terrible defending, flukey goals, anything that keeps me on the edge of my seat.

Hated Spain's success in 2008-2012, loved Greece in 2004. Bored shitless by Manchester City, absolutely loved Leicester's title win through the usual top 6 being absolutely atrocious.

Even the Liverpool/Man City battles that went the distance were ultimately pretty tedious because they both just kept winning.

Fingers crossed for an Inter win in the CL final, and the implosion of every decent team in the PL next season.

i can appreciate skill too but it doesn't hold my attention...the vast majority of all the endless sport going on is boring to me, but i poke my nose in in the hope of sniffing out any proper drama. one of the best things about the world cup is that its guaranteed full of stories and upsets.

a massive part of sport is the personalities of the competitors and with the majority of top level sports i dont really like them. too much money involved is a massive factor. also the older i get the less novelty sport has for me. theres so much sport endlessly getting played it feels like a factory, churning out results.

again good thing with the world cup is its every 4 years - the suggested plan to make it bi-annual was a terrible idea.

i enjoy following spurs though, and theres always a bit of 'narrative' there, but without a personal emotional connection or genuine drama sport is basically a boring timewaste to watch < sometimes its fun to waste some time like that though.

ETA@ kabbes just made simliar points - I broadly agree

Sampras was a good example of boring sporting dominance

 

[kabbes]

ETA@ kabbes just made simliar points - I broadly agree

Yeah, but you said it better. Spot on, I thought.

 

[stavros]

Editor was a Man Utd fan .

Really? Since when? I thought it was Cardiff all the way for him.

An extension to the original question is should institutional dominance be factored out of sports? Premiership Rugby has the salary cap, which Sarries broke and were punished for. Football has FFP, but that doesn't seem to stop nation states financially doping their clubs, and also tilts the odds towards those with the greater revenue.

Team Sky spring to mind too, where they had domestiques working, for mainly Chris Froome, who could've been team leaders elsewhere. I haven't seen the accounts, but I suspect they were well remunerated to stay in the train as long as possible, in a way that teams with less financial clout couldn't do.

 

[kabbes]

I think the salvation for sport in general would be to eliminate money from it. Not so much the prize money; I mean the huge franchise value arising from television, sponsorship, image rights, endorsements etc etc. It’s financial greed that underlies the transformation of fun into competition at all costs.

 

[newme]

Editor was a Man Utd fan . Actually, the Arsenal/ City race for the title was exciting and only decided with about three games to go

editor was a united fan? I thought they were a Cardiff fan.

I got bored supporting united when we won too much then came back just before ferguson quit which has been a bit of a mess. Look bayerns 10 year record. Even an ex dortmund manager went there after failing elsewhere and won with them.

Been way more surprises with EPL over that period but vanity projects for rich people or counties is more the norm now. United spent 1b in debt and interest payments, the debt is larger. Qatari sport washing seems likely or Jim whatever who may keep the leaches on board. All a mess.

City are boring even in the most competitive top league. Psg in France, bayern in Germany, juventus until very recently in Italy. Spain just goes in cycles and barca have mortgaged their future to win. Real lost their best goal scorer so it may work out for them. Napoli won Italy and ate already looking to be asset stripped, like Monaco and leicester when they won

 

[tommers]

Sport is about competition. That's it.

 

[The39thStep]

There are a lot of things wrong with football. Generally money talks. However, we were very close to a situation this year where Arsenal and Dortmund could have won their leagues. Napoli won their league for the first time in 55 years . I can't recall anyone saying football was all over when Man Utd won their treble.

 

[editor]

editor was a united fan? I thought they were a Cardiff fan.

I'm neither, I support Peckham Town and Dulwich Hamlet

 

[shambler]

Sporting dominance is boring when it's most obviously based upon finances.

It's most interesting in international sport, i.e the All Blacks. Obviously money - in terms of grassroots support and infrastructure etc - still plays a part in international sport, but it's interesting when a team's dominance is at least in part because of the culture of the country or the love of the sport. So when a smaller, poorer or less developed country punches above its weight consistently - there's something interesting and difficult to explain about that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sporting dominance is boring when it's most obviously based upon finances.

It's most interesting in international sport, i.e the All Blacks. Obviously money - in terms of grassroots support and infrastructure etc - still plays a part in international sport, but it's interesting when a team's dominance is at least in part because of the culture of the country or the love of the sport. So when a smaller, poorer or less developed country punches above its weight consistently - there's something interesting and difficult to explain about that.

Yep this. I grew up loving the West Indies because they smashed everyone else up in cricket. And they did it completely against the odds - very little money, atrocious administration, inter-island politics, and the rest of it. That was glorious pure sporting achievement.

I followed football avidly as a kid. Nowadays, while I will look at the tables still, my interest in watching it is largely confined to World Cups or euros, men or women. Why? Because while there is money in it, it's not about the money. You can't buy the World Cup.

I couldn't name more than about three of Man City's current players. Time was when I would be able to name the whole teams of the biggest clubs.

Generally, money ruins sport. As others have said, it is the commercialisation of it - the stealing of our national games from us to have them sold back to us as tightly packaged products. I'll still occasionally fork out way too much money to watch a day's test cricket, but that's about it when it comes to top-flight sport.

 

[The39thStep]

I'm neither, I support Peckham Town and Dulwich Hamlet

Ok soz. Haven't you got family who are Utd or something ?

 

[JimW]

The other thing about Chinese dominance in table tennis is often they could have sent another ten or twenty players of a better standard than the opposition but are limited by number of places available to each nation in international tournaments.

 

[Petcha]

How do you feel when a team or an individual dominates their competition? This could be due to fulfilling natural talent - Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Yelena Isinbayeva - or external circumstances tipping the scales - Saracens and Manchester City currently, Lance Armstrong previously. Leave aside the morals of how the dominance came about; how does it feel to you as a sporting spectacle?

I'll be honest and say that it doesn't pull me in to see anyone reign supreme. I disengaged from Formula 1 during the Schumacher years, and haven't gone back, and similar happened as a child when Stephen Hendry ground out World Championship after World Championship, although I'm fully back on board with snooker now. On the other hand it was kind of fascinating to see how far Bolt, Michael Johnson, Jonathan Edwards, etc could push their respective world records.

I thought about this watching the Cup Final today, and I note editor commented upon Manchester City's trajectory being boring on that thread. What do you all think?

I think the All Blacks are the most successful international sports team of all time. Something like 80% or something over 100 years?

 

[[62]]

I support Torquay United. We don't even dominate South Devon.

 

[Elpenor]

The other thing about Chinese dominance in table tennis is often they could have sent another ten or twenty players of a better standard than the opposition but are limited by number of places available to each nation in international tournaments.

Same true for Kenya / Ethiopia in long distance middle and long distance running too

 

[May Kasahara]

Another perspective: I lost interest in sport generally at some point in my late 30s or early 40s. I used to be a real devotee — I’d watch anything, any time and love it all. Then, over a short period of time, it all just started to seem silly, like watching school kids in a sports day. Plus it keeps coming round year after year anyway, so who cares who wins this one? The only thing I have left that I still enjoy is test match cricket, for some reason.

So even the sense of excitement from a close competition only matters if, in some way, the whole thing matters. Once you’ve lost that, even a dramatic and epic battle is dull.

Funny, I've had the opposite experience. Grew up with zero interest in sport, hated it all and couldn't understand why anyone would waste their time watching other humans doing repetitive physical motions on an annual/biannual/whatever cycle. Gradually developed a bit of an interest in the occasional competitions (World Cup, Olympics) and started to appreciate the skill and relentless hard work involved in becoming the best at something...also started to understand what I was looking at (football tactics, shot selection in tennis etc) which made it more interesting.

My old self would be utterly bemused to know that I now gladly follow football, watch Wimbledon every year, actively choose to watch not just the peak performance tournaments for various sports but also things like European gymnastics championships...that I read and enjoy the sports section fgs. I enjoy the cyclical nature of it all, it's reassuring in a world full of chaos.

And as a result, I enjoy sporting dominance where it is the result of outstanding natural talent coupled with decades of hard work. There's nothing boring about watching Serena Williams or Simone Biles. Where it gets dull, as people have said upthread, is when it's just bought and paid for, with no soul. Hence my delight at seeing Brentford, Brighton, Fulham thrive in the PL this season against the usual top few - it's been fun to watch.

 

[Pickman's model]

editor was a united fan? I thought they were a Cardiff fan.

They were

 

[Ted Striker]

Financial doping of Team Sky, Man City/Chelsea and F1 in general, I like Sport to find the best of the best. So domination is not an issue for me. Agreed on the points of scarce competitions having special edge - think Olympics and the Ashes. I guess it all comes down to stories, right? It's an entertainment business after all, nothing more, nothing less. Dominance is a story as much as plucky Leicester is, though more reliable and simpler to market.

One thing I get fairly stuffy/Victor Meldrew on is supporting a team...Made up bants around adults feeling duty bound to go "yah boo my teams better than you". It's fun for a bit of Trumpian/WWE/post truth nonsense...But does any Spurs fan (sticks hand up) think their team has had a better season and outlook to our rivals?

On a related note, Tennis has a huge problem on the horizon...How are they prepared for a post Novak era? The Big 3 were so far ahead of the rest of the bunch, even in later years, they have a real task on their hands to gee up a crowd for the next generation (that said, Tennis is a beautiful sport form a story perspective, in that it's a competition where the top 10 players on the world can come from 10 different nationalities - but is that marketable?).

All which I've said makes the anti-dominance move of the US Sports draft system and Any Given Sunday ethos so bizarre and un-American, and equally brilliant. I don't quite understand it fully, but the lack in dominance of teams is quite something (in a country that you think would invent sporting dominance of powerful entities).