SPGB

[butchersapron]

Is this the only contribution you are capable of making? Surely you have a question up your sleeve which is relevant to class struggle?

He's full of false consciousness

 

[DotCommunist]

Is this the only contribution you are capable of making? Surely you have a question up your sleeve which is relevant to class struggle?

ok. How do you address the fact that most people see politics as a thing done to them by an elite political class and not as a personal thing? How do you seek to address the fact that most people don't give a shit about politics of the parliamentary sort and just want a functioning society to live their lives in?

 

[Gravediggers]

I reject the class consciousness concept

Fine butchers, pity you didn't make that plain from the very beginning. So logically speaking you accept you do not have any class consciousness. Correct?

 

[butchersapron]

Nope. Think.

 

[Gravediggers]

ok. How do you address the fact that most people see politics as a thing done to them by an elite political class and not as a personal thing? How do you seek to address the fact that most people don't give a shit about politics of the parliamentary sort and just want a functioning society to live their lives in?

Very good question. Short answer, alienation from the political process, in that their empowerment only goes so far has an Xon a bit of paper which paradoxically confirms their support for a system which enslaves them and by definition alienates them from the decision making process on the means of living. Yep apathy and complacency abounds within capitalism and is essential to its survival. And it is a functioning society of sorts, specifically for the capitalists.

So how can socialists address this problem? By propagating the socialist case whenever the opportunity arises. What else do you suggest we do?

 

[DotCommunist]

heh, preaching the message. Totally guilty of that, if guilty is the right word.

As to the latter question I see immense results from community activity undertaken by my local Kingdom Faith church groep. Clearing gardens, washing cars, doorstepping and scoutish bob-a-job stuff tbf but they have recruited hugely as well as making inroads to attempting to convert the LBTG community through grassroots stuff. Now I'm not claiming that as some grand way forward, but intense community activity and involvement on the local issues- the grassroots stuff- surely holds more sway with people than lectures on marxist theory.

 

[dannysp]

You are slipping and sliding. I'm not explicitly pinning you down on a 'model' but a concept. So answer the fucking question, "In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?"

Calm down GD, calm down, he's not worth it! ;-)

 

[Gravediggers]

Nope. Think.

Butchers I'm not into mind games, and I'm most certainly not going to hazard a guess on what you expect me to think. Spit it out for fucks sake. You've stated you reject the class consciousness model, and the concept of class consciousness, so what in actual fact do you accept as class consciousness?

What's the fuck with all this mystery?

 

[butchersapron]

This is the scene where the robots head explodes:

You've stated you reject the class consciousness model, and the concept of class consciousness, so what in actual fact do you accept as class consciousness?

 

[Gravediggers]

heh, preaching the message. Totally guilty of that, if guilty is the right word.

As to the latter question I see immense results from community activity undertaken by my local Kingdom Faith church groep. Clearing gardens, washing cars, doorstepping and scoutish bob-a-job stuff tbf but they have recruited hugely as well as making inroads to attempting to convert the LBTG community through grassroots stuff. Now I'm not claiming that as some grand way forward, but intense community activity and involvement on the local issues- the grassroots stuff- surely holds more sway with people than lectures on marxist theory.

I know of many members doing exactly that, including myself. Socialists find it impossible not to be involved in community activity and rarely give lectures on marxian theory. What I do frequently is challenge the myth that disempowerment is here to stay.

 

[Gravediggers]

This is the scene where the robots head explodes:

Mind games again. I take it you are refusing to answer a simple question?

 

[dannysp]

there is the slimmest possibility that I might be taking the piss not the point, yes.

Thanks, without your honesty I would have missed that. What must have I been thinking, silly me.

There's two ways to take the piss, sarcasm or taking advantage, you're engaging in the latter it seems to me. The advantage you secure is that while you "take the piss" out of the SPGB's open position you conceal your own, which is the snipers way, the cowards way of "taking the piss".

OK so we might be fools us "squeegees" but what sort of person is it that spends their time taking the piss out of fools?

 

[butchersapron]

The vanguard?

 

[DotCommunist]

Generally I am the sort of person who sharpens his goading stick regularly.

 

[Blagsta]

Butchers I'm not into mind games, and I'm most certainly not going to hazard a guess on what you expect me to think. Spit it out for fucks sake. You've stated you reject the class consciousness model, and the concept of class consciousness, so what in actual fact do you accept as class consciousness?

What's the fuck with all this mystery?

Presumably if someone rejects class consciousness as a concept, then asking them to "accept [something] as class consciousness" is a bit pointless.

 

[dannysp]

Generally I am the sort of person who sharpens his goading stick regularly.

OK then, why?

 

[dannysp]

Originally Posted by me (butch)
i reject the class consciousness model


What model do you accept?

Any chance of a reply?

 

[Blagsta]

Originally Posted by me (butch)
i reject the class consciousness model


What model do you accept?

Any chance of a reply?

Presumably if someone rejects the class consciousness model, they don't neccesarily have to have something to replace it.

Although I would be interested in hearing why butchers rejects it.

 

[butchersapron]

No model at all. I place experience, lived experience - at the centre. danny will now say that his and his parties reflection on experience means they're necessarily advanced. If he doesn't he has no grounds on which to claim that his party is in advance of the mass of people.

for blagsta: consciousness for people like the above simply means agreement with them. A set of beliefs rather than a process of self-and social awareness. If you define class consciousness as 'agreeing with me/us' then it's useless..And it opens the door to we're advanced you're backward - this is is for your own good.

 

[Blagsta]

No model at all. I place experience, lived experience - at the centre. danny will now say that his and his parties reflection on experience means they're necessarily advanced. If he doesn't he has no grounds on which to claim that his party is in advance of the mass of people.

for blagsta: consciousness for people like the above simply means agreement with them. A set of beliefs rather than a process of self-and social awareness. If you define class consciousness as 'agreeing with me/us' then it's useless..And it opens the door to we're advanced you're backward - this is is for your own good.

Yeah, I can see that. Cheers.

 

[Gravediggers]

Presumably if someone rejects class consciousness as a concept, then asking them to "accept [something] as class consciousness" is a bit pointless.

Yes to you and me, but alas not to butchers who will unforgivably find fault with any response that fails to fit with his understanding of what class consciousness actually consists of. He's the nit picker supremo! He will wriggle and squirm, slip and slide, act dumb and deaf in an effort to retain the crown of the uncommitted and irrational argument which can be found often with those who are in denial that class consciousness is the starting block for a serious and determined discussion on aspects of the class struggle.

His understanding of class consciousness is his and his alone and to tread on this sacred patch is to do so at your peril. For to him this constitutes an invasion of his privacy where the sharing of ideas is frowned upon and serves to confirm you are a vanguardist. In effect he constantly attempts to rationalise the irrational.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes to you and me, but alas not to butchers who will unforgivably find fault with any response that fails to fit with his understanding of what class consciousness actually consists of. He's the nit picker supremo! He will wriggle and squirm, slip and slide, act dumb and deaf in an effort to retain the crown of the uncommitted and irrational argument which can be found often with those who are in denial that class consciousness is the starting block for a serious and determined discussion on aspects of the class struggle.

His understanding of class consciousness is his and his alone and to tread on this sacred patch is to do so at your peril. For to him this constitutes an invasion of his privacy where the sharing of ideas is frowned upon and serves to confirm you are a vanguardist. In effect he constantly attempts to rationalise the irrational.

He's just given you a response.

 

[FreddyB]

Yes to you and me, but alas not to butchers who will unforgivably find fault with any response that fails to fit with his understanding of what class consciousness actually consists of. He's the nit picker supremo! He will wriggle and squirm, slip and slide, act dumb and deaf in an effort to retain the crown of the uncommitted and irrational argument which can be found often with those who are in denial that class consciousness is the starting block for a serious and determined discussion on aspects of the class struggle.

His understanding of class consciousness is his and his alone and to tread on this sacred patch is to do so at your peril. For to him this constitutes an invasion of his privacy where the sharing of ideas is frowned upon and serves to confirm you are a vanguardist. In effect he constantly attempts to rationalise the irrational.

There is no class conciousness except in your head where it exists to make you and your party important.

 

[Gravediggers]

No model at all. I place experience, lived experience - at the centre. danny will now say that his and his parties reflection on experience means they're necessarily advanced. If he doesn't he has no grounds on which to claim that his party is in advance of the mass of people.

for blagsta: consciousness for people like the above simply means agreement with them. A set of beliefs rather than a process of self-and social awareness. If you define class consciousness as 'agreeing with me/us' then it's useless..And it opens the door to we're advanced you're backward - this is is for your own good.

May I remind you of my Post 1353 below.

And how does this explain the many instances of workers becoming class conscious without even being in touch with the SPGB? Indeed, there have been quite a few instances in our experience where the class conscious worker have deliberately made the effort to seek out an organisation which reflects their class consciousness. Happily, they have come across the SPGB to confirm they were not in isolation and that there were workers who had reached exactly reached the same conclusion.

Class consciousness does not arise because the SPGB says so, but from life experiences and a basic understanding that capitalism is not in our interests.

 

[scrappy1]

But it is to do with the here and now, for you have suddenly realised you have broken with your principle of, "not agreeing with anything" no matter how ridiculous it makes you out to be. But here you are saying you agree that participatory democracy is possible in a society where the means of living are held in common ownership.

All this stuff reminds me of that famous Monty Python "Argument" sketch. See

 

[butchersapron]

May I remind you of my Post 1353 below.



Class consciousness does not arise because the SPGB says so, but from life experiences and a basic understanding that capitalism is not in our interests.

May i remind you of the specific things that you say class consciouses consists of:

When socialist talk of "class consciousness" they specifically mean a working class consciousness that recognises their subservient role within the capitalist mode of production and how this came about. It follows, a prerequisite is a general understanding on how exploitation takes place to extract surplus value from the workers and create profit, rent and interest for the capitalist class. This does not mean you have to attend study groups on the reading of Marx for in its essence the formula for exploitation can be explained by an examination of the wages system itself.

Broadly speaking the workers produce more than enough to live within a set number of hours. For example, within an eight hour day we can produce sufficient to meet our everyday needs and to reproduce our labour power within 6 hours, the other 2 hours is extracted by the capitalist has surplus value.

What I've described here is economic class consciousness and although many workers would identify with this description there are also many other workers who have formed the impression that its down to, 'a fairs days work for a fair days pay' leading to the myth's like a hard days work never killed anybody, or I have the freedom to choose my employer, or my exploiter deserves their hard earned wealth through dint of perseverance and frugality, etc.

Another aspect of economic class consciousness is the struggle for improvements in the condition of the workers and this by its very nature involves the workers organising themselves into trade unions and organisations struggling for particular reforms. It is however a struggle which is continually on the defensive for when capitalism is in crisis or it is the general opinion that the workers can afford a particular service these reforms are eroded or removed. For the capitalist class hold all the cards.

Socialists do not deride workers for participating in such struggles, indeed if the class have no intention of ending up in the gutter it can under such conditions only struggle as, 'a class in its self', where it seeks to alleviate the pressures of wage slavery. However, there have been many attempts to make this aspect of class struggle has the necessary stage towards a revolutionary situation. History illustrates they have all failed for a variety of reasons.

Those differences aside, there is also "political class consciousness" and this entails not only recognising and understanding how exploitation takes place but also acknowledging that the capitalist mode of production is not here for the benefit of the working class and being prepared to do something about it so there is a radical and complete change in the social relationships.

Contained within a political class consciousness is a determination not to compromise with capitalism in any shape or form when pursuing a socialist revolution. For instance, I've mentioned in previous posts that socialists refuse to work within the 'political system' but abide by the 'political process'. And I've also mentioned previously that the politically conscious organised workers choose their own weapons and strategy when confronting the capitalists class. For not to do so is self-defeating and involves compromise on the principle that the socialist revolution is not a revolution led by leaders seeking to impose their will on the majority, but a revolution of the majority.

In short, the workers have become a class for itself, with only one item on the agenda: self-emancipation.

 

[FreddyB]

Class consciousness only exists in your head. Somebody knows something that you agree with and they're class conscious. It means nothing at all that you've pointed to someone and claimed they have this magic consciousness.

 

[Gravediggers]

There is no class conciousness except in your head where it exists to make you and your party important.

What a put down for our class interests. Not a very nice way of confirming you lack a class consciousness.

 

[butchersapron]

Nothing outside of the party

Nothing.

 

[FreddyB]

But they aren't vanguardist