SPGB

[fraz]

Generally I am the sort of person who sharpens his goading stick regularly.

Shit not another one.. this goading nonsense is trolling -

What we want is ideas.. not fucking the battle of the egos.

 

[FreddyB]

Good question. If you are talking specifically about about class in a capitalist context I guess it would have emerged spontaneously out of the class struggle engendered by early capitalism. One thing is for sure - the idea peddled by Kautsky and Lenin (in his What is to be Done) that revolutuoinary socialist ideas, the embodiment of class consciousness in its self-aware form as class -for-itself, can be brought to workers only "from without", by bourgeois intellectuals like Marx and Engels, is sheer nonsense. The Chartist movement consisted of ordinary workers and made a huge impact. Though it fizzled out in the 1850s it laid ther foundations for the early socialist movement in Brtain. As for Marx and Engels , well, they learnt their communism from German and French artisan workers in Paris. The League of St Just with which Charlie and Fred associated and later became the Communist League for which the Communist Manifesto was written, was somewhat hostile towards bourgeois intellectuals as I understand it.

The SPGB itself, incidentally, began life as an organisation of ordinary workers and typically consisted of working class autodidacts. The sprinkling of university types that we find in it today as we do in other organisations was really a post war phenomenon. Barltrops book about the SPGB called The Monument, largely anecdotal and not altogether reliable, does give you a good taste of life in the SPGB and is amusingly written. Dave Perrin's Book The Socialist Party of Great Britain: Politics , Economics and Britains Oldest Socialist Party is superior in my view and very well researched. You could learn a lot by dipping into it.

I'm not asking for examples of people you consider to have been class conscious I want you to tell me who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for.

 

[Gravediggers]

Shit not another one.. this goading nonsense is trolling -

What we want is ideas.. not fucking the battle of the egos.

Steady on DotCommunist did pose a question earlier on, so he's not a complete troll.

 

[Gravediggers]

I'm not asking for examples of people you consider to have been class conscious I want you to tell me who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for.

This is a toughie. The usual starting point is the Communist Manifesto but that only provides a generalisation on the history of class struggle not on the origins of a working class consciousness itself. IMO class consciousness starts from the realisation of a common identity and interests derived from the real experiences of living in a class society where exploitation of the many by the few is clearly apparent.

As to its historical background in reference specifically to the working class I have no idea where class consciousness originated or even, "who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for." - I have to admit I'm stumped. Even Marx must have had a starting point or a reference to other ideas on the subject.

But I'm also intrigued on the relevance of how class consciousness comes about. Marx remarked on, "Its not the consciousness of men which determines their circumstances, rather their circumstances which determines their consciousness". Which to me explains that the material circumstances in which we find ourselves in are the elements which defines the mode of production and how exploitation takes place.

Hope this helps.

 

[FreddyB]

This is a toughie. The usual starting point is the Communist Manifesto but that only provides a generalisation on the history of class struggle not on the origins of a working class consciousness itself. IMO class consciousness starts from the realisation of a common identity and interests derived from the real experiences of living in a class society where exploitation of the many by the few is clearly apparent.

As to its historical background in reference specifically to the working class I have no idea where class consciousness originated or even, "who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for." - I have to admit I'm stumped. Even Marx must have had a starting point or a reference to other ideas on the subject.

But I'm also intrigued on the relevance of how class consciousness comes about. Marx remarked on, "Its not the consciousness of men which determines their circumstances, rather their circumstances which determines their consciousness". Which to me explains that the material circumstances in which we find ourselves in are the elements which defines the mode of production and how exploitation takes place.

Hope this helps.

It could help you, think about the bold bit for a while

 

[Gravediggers]

It could help you, think about the bold bit for a while

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
This is a toughie. The usual starting point is the Communist Manifesto but that only provides a generalisation on the history of class struggle not on the origins of a working class consciousness itself. IMO class consciousness starts from the realisation of a common identity and interests derived from the real experiences of living in a class society where exploitation of the many by the few is clearly apparent.

As to its historical background in reference specifically to the working class I have no idea where class consciousness originated or even, "who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for." - I have to admit I'm stumped. Even Marx must have had a starting point or a reference to other ideas on the subject.

But I'm also intrigued on the relevance of how class consciousness comes about. Marx remarked on, "Its not the consciousness of men which determines their circumstances, rather their circumstances which determines their consciousness". Which to me explains that the material circumstances in which we find ourselves in are the elements which defines the mode of production and how exploitation takes place.

Hope this helps.

If you are saying that in your opinion it was Marx who came up with the concept of class consciousness, for sake of argument I'll go along with that. By the way you do realise that this statement by Marx places the prime emphasis on matter, and in direct opposition to Descartes proposition, "I think therefore I am"?

 

[FreddyB]

I'm not saying anything I'm asking you to tell me.

"Its not the consciousness of men which determines their circumstances, rather their circumstances which determines their consciousness".

Think about it some more. Go back and read the post Butchers made about lived experience. There is no class consciousness, not in one or a collection of individuals.

 

[Gravediggers]

I'm not saying anything I'm asking you to tell me.


Think about it some more. Go back and read the post Butchers made about lived experience. There is no class consciousness, not in one or a collection of individuals.

I take it you mean this: Post 1366. But this post is in contradiction to your statement above, has I point out in bold. So what point are you trying to make?

My take on class consciousness? I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all - it leads to the daft sort of stuff that you've just come up with above and if not handled properly (again, see your long above post) opens the trapdoor to all sorts of vanguardism.

I prefer to think, as i've said already now a number of times, to think in terms of individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions - Marx thought of strikes as schools of revolution, well there's many fields of experience to learn from, without having to be taught by the 'educators' or without having to come to a pre-deterermined set of ideas worked out 100 years before by the brain and memory of the class - they party.

Indeed, the SPGB's contemporary and historical marginality itself demonstrates that the w/c can and does go beyond the ideas these vanguard groups attempt to provide them with on the basis of their 'advanced consciousness' - a consciousness that appears to come into existence by nothing else than a self-selecting group of people who've applied to belong to the party. The only hope lies outside of and in rejection of the 'instillers' of consciousness. We both know that.

 

[robbo203]

I'm not asking for examples of people you consider to have been class conscious I want you to tell me who came up with the concept, the yard stick by which consciousness or lack of it is measured and what for.

You asked So where does it come from this consciousness ans I answered If you are talking specifically about about class in a capitalist context I guess it would have emerged spontaneously out of the class struggle engendered by early capitalism I couldnt begin to tell who first articulated the idea of class consciousness. Can anyone? But does it really
matter? I suggested that class consciousness would have been present in movements like the Chartists but I really couldnt say much more than that. Perhaps EP Thompson might be a source to turn to on the subject. just a thought.

 

[FreddyB]

I take it you mean this: Post 1366. But this post is in contradiction to your statement above, has I point out in bold. So what point are you trying to make?

It's not actually the post I had in mind but it says the same. Are you now saying that class consciousness is "individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions"

Not what you said a few pages ago when I asked, you gave me a descrption of political and economic consciousness. OR are you saying that the individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions are only valid if they reach the conclusions you listed in your description?

 

[FreddyB]

You asked So where does it come from this consciousness ans I answered If you are talking specifically about about class in a capitalist context I guess it would have emerged spontaneously out of the class struggle engendered by early capitalism I couldnt begin to tell who first articulated the idea of class consciousness. Can anyone? But does it really
matter? I suggested that class consciousness would have been present in movements like the Chartists but I really couldnt say much more than that. Perhaps EP Thompson might be a source to turn to on the subject. just a thought.

So the SPGB here can't tell me what CC is, can't tell me where it came from but can point to people who they agree with and say that they had it?


Just say it. "Class consciousness is agreeing with the SPGB, that we'r right, that our ideas are the correct ideas"

 

[robbo203]

So the SPGB here can't tell me what CC is, can't tell me where it came from but can point to people who they agree with and say that they had it?


Just say it. "Class consciousness is agreeing with the SPGB, that we'r right, that our ideas are the correct ideas"

Now come on - stop playing games. I did not say I or the SPGB cant tell you what class consciousness is. And i did not say I or the SPGB cant tell me "where" is came from. In fact I told you where I thought it came from in my view - that it would have emerged spontaneously out of the lived experience of workers in early capitalism in their struggles with employers

You asked a very particular question about who first came up with the concept of class consciousness and I said I did not think I could help you out with that and that you would advised to consult historians like EP Thompson. But I still dont know why you think it is a matter of such great import. Who cares who first came up with the concept

And, no , class consciousness does not mean agreeing with the SPGB becuase you can fully class conscious without ever having even heard of the SPGB. The SPGB incidentally would be the frist to agree with this statement

 

[Gravediggers]

It's not actually the post I had in mind but it says the same. Are you now saying that class consciousness is "individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions"

Not what you said a few pages ago when I asked, you gave me a descrption of political and economic consciousness. OR are you saying that the individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions are only valid if they reach the conclusions you listed in your description?

I've never denied that, "class consciousness is individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions". Of course it is. And by definition they have to relate to our economic and political circumstances which explains how and why workers are exploited and disempowered. The validity of the description I listed is admittedly not a self evident truth, it was not meant to be, which is the reason why I included two references to aspects of false consciousness so to underline the point that the working class can accept class consciousness or reject it. However, the majority of individual workers are not in any position to accept or reject class consciousness until they have been faced with the proposition, or alternatively worked it out for themselves.

 

[FreddyB]

Now come on - stop playing games. I did not say I or the SPGB cant tell you what class consciousness is. And i did not say I or the SPGB cant tell me "where" is came from. In fact I told you where I thought it came from in my view - that it would have emerged spontaneously out of the lived experience of workers in early capitalism in their struggles with employers

You asked a very particular question about who first came up with the concept of class consciousness and I said I did not think I could help you out with that and that you would advised to consult historians like EP Thompson. But I still dont know why you think it is a matter of such great import. Who cares who first came up with the concept

And, no , class consciousness does not mean agreeing with the SPGB becuase you can fully class conscious without ever having even heard of the SPGB. The SPGB incidentally would be the frist to agree with this statement

I said you can't tell me what it is, I've had two answers now. CC is the list of things a person knows that GD gave me, it's the shared experience that Butchers described when he said he rejected CC. Which is it?

Unless you can tell me where it came from, who came up with the concept of CC as a way of describing either what they have observed or what is required/desireable then CC is just what you say it is at any given time. Which makes it completely none existent as an idea let alone as something tangible. And of course a person can have this magic CC without ever having heard of the SPGB, you decide, you point to the chartists and say look! they have CC or you don't say it. Depending on whether you agree with them or not or they fit your particular argument at the time.

 

[FreddyB]

I've never denied that, "class consciousness is individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions". Of course it is. And by definition they have to relate to our economic and political circumstances which explains how and why workers are exploited and disempowered. The validity of the description I listed is admittedly not a self evident truth, it was not meant to be, which is the reason why I included two references to aspects of false consciousness so to underline the point that the working class can accept class consciousness or reject it. However, the majority of individual workers are not in any position to accept or reject class consciousness until they have been faced with the proposition, or alternatively worked it out for themselves.

You could have just said "yes, that's right CC is shared experience etc as long the people draw the same conclusions as us from that experience, otherwise no, it's false. CC is agreeing with me and the SPGB"

 

[Gravediggers]

You could have just said "yes, that's right CC is shared experience etc as long the people draw the same conclusions as us from that experience, otherwise no, it's false. CC is agreeing with me and the SPGB"

The way you put it is as if I and the SPGB have sole copyright on class consciousness which is plain nonsense. The individual worker claims sole copyright on their own class consciousness, which is verified, confirmed and agreed through the shared experiences of their fellow workers which may, or may not include the membership of the SPGB.

 

[newbie]

I've never denied that, "class consciousness is individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions". Of course it is. And by definition they have to relate to our economic and political circumstances which explains how and why workers are exploited and disempowered.

how do you determine when class consciousness has arrived?

f'rinstance, it's self evident that the vast majority of the working class may grumble a bit but have reflected, both individually and collectively, on their shared experience and decided that for the time being a social democratic version of capitalism is reasonably satisfactory. It delivers both basic needs- food, shelter, healthcare, education- and also provides aspirational solutions to widespread desires- asset accumulation, social mobility, a vote, personal mobility, leisure, toys. There's a lot wrong with it, hence the grumbles, but most adults don't believe in utopia.

Have those reflections, and the resultant clear acceptance of where we're at now, achieved CC, or will that only be achieved when everybody agrees with you that actually they're sufficiently exploited and disempowered that it's necessary to throw all that away in search of the promised land?

 

[FreddyB]

The way you put it is as if I and the SPGB have sole copyright on class consciousness which is plain nonsense. The individual worker claims sole copyright on their own class consciousness, which is verified, confirmed and agreed through the shared experiences of their fellow workers which may, or may not include the membership of the SPGB.

Individual workers aren't wondering around claiming to be conscious though are they? You're pointing at anyone/workers who agree with you and declaring them to be conscious.

 

[Gravediggers]

how do you determine when class consciousness has arrived?

f'rinstance, it's self evident that the vast majority of the working class may grumble a bit but have reflected, both individually and collectively, on their shared experience and decided that for the time being a social democratic version of capitalism is reasonably satisfactory. It delivers both basic needs- food, shelter, healthcare, education- and also provides aspirational solutions to widespread desires- asset accumulation, social mobility, a vote, personal mobility, leisure, toys. There's a lot wrong with it, hence the grumbles, but most adults don't believe in utopia.

Of course you've depicted an ideal society here where the expectations on meeting basic needs are being met and social aspirations are being fulfilled. This is the promised land of a better tomorrow we are constantly being offered as a carrot by the politicians. But the reality is our social expectations and aspirations ended up in the dustbin years ago and the periodic crisis of capitalism means a change in message from the politicians, who are now saying, 'Unfortunately the holiday is over and we apologise for forgetting to tell you there was a hidden surcharge to be paid'.

In this respect capitalism is the utopia for it fails to deliver the goods. In fact it is incapable of delivering the means of living to the greater majority, and increasingly so. On the other hand, if the majority of the working class perceive the socialist message to be utopian, it means logically they are unconvinced of its validity. But this hypothesis remains untested for the fact of the matter is the greater majority of the working class remain untouched by the socialist case.

Have those reflections, and the resultant clear acceptance of where we're at now, achieved CC, or will that only be achieved when everybody agrees with you that actually they're sufficiently exploited and disempowered that it's necessary to throw all that away in search of the promised land?

The SPGB don't promise anything. What we propose is a possible alternative the the inequality of capitalism, there is a big difference between a proposition and a promise. The establishment of socialism will of course not be taken lightly for we are proposing a historical approach to enacting the revolutionary transformation, in that a social revolution by a conscious majority as never been tried in the history of social evolution.

 

[Gravediggers]

Sorry a bump

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The SPGB don't promise anything.

That is a barefaced lie: you promise the moon, the stars and the sun over and over again, you promise you know best, better than all the rest, you promise you are the genuine article, the one and only, then, now and into the future, genuine article.

Unfortunately you have no means of getting anywhere, besides more promise laden flights of fancy. You have no proof of your cleverness, just circular assertions to that effect. You have no guarantee of your genuineness, besides the ones penned by yourselves; a bit like the glowing reviews of your own publications which you also go in for.

But don't let any of that stop you puking up more demands to lead the working class into the light and on to heaven. I know it won't.

Back to work now - Louis Macneice

 

[newbie]

Of course you've depicted an ideal society here where the expectations on meeting basic needs are being met and social aspirations are being fulfilled. This is the promised land of a better tomorrow we are constantly being offered as a carrot by the politicians. But the reality is our social expectations and aspirations ended up in the dustbin years ago and the periodic crisis of capitalism means a change in message from the politicians, who are now saying, 'Unfortunately the holiday is over and we apologise for forgetting to tell you there was a hidden surcharge to be paid'.

In this respect capitalism is the utopia for it fails to deliver the goods. In fact it is incapable of delivering the means of living to the greater majority, and increasingly so.

Your grumbles are noted. Everyone has grumbles, no-one thinks here and now is perfect.

On the other hand, if the majority of the working class perceive the socialist message to be utopian, it means logically they are unconvinced of its validity. But this hypothesis remains untested for the fact of the matter is the greater majority of the working class remain untouched by the socialist case.

a hypothesis is capable of neither proof nor disproof until it is tested, a bit like angels on the head of a pin.

Your assertion that the majority of us are 'untouched' by the case for socialism is rather more contentious, since it assumes that the case hasn't been put rather than that it has been put and actively rejected, which is where all the evidence points. Do you really think the w/c doesn't know what's best for it, because it hasn't taken enough notice of you? Isn't that a bit patronising?

The SPGB don't promise anything. What we propose is a possible alternative the the inequality of capitalism, there is a big difference between a proposition and a promise. The establishment of socialism will of course not be taken lightly for we are proposing a historical approach to enacting the revolutionary transformation, in that a social revolution by a conscious majority as never been tried in the history of social evolution.

ok, there is no promised land, merely a proposal. None the less it involves sweeping away the here and now.



now, the question I asked, how do you determine when class consciousness has arrived?

 

[Gravediggers]

Individual workers aren't wondering around claiming to be conscious though are they? You're pointing at anyone/workers who agree with you and declaring them to be conscious.

Actually the reverse is happening to what you perceive is occurring with the workers doing the pointing at us and declaring we are the genuine expression of class consciousness.

 

[Gravediggers]

Your grumbles are noted. Everyone has grumbles, no-one thinks here and now is perfect.

A socialist analysis does not consist of 'grumbles' or even the imperfections of capitalism, and we acknowledge that not even socialism is going to be perfect.

a hypothesis is capable of neither proof nor disproof until it is tested, a bit like angels on the head of a pin.

Your assertion that the majority of us are 'untouched' by the case for socialism is rather more contentious, since it assumes that the case hasn't been put rather than that it has been put and actively rejected, which is where all the evidence points. Do you really think the w/c doesn't know what's best for it, because it hasn't taken enough notice of you? Isn't that a bit patronising?

No the case for socialism has not been put to the greater majority, so there is no evidence to suggest the case has been rejected.

ok, there is no promised land, merely a proposal. None the less it involves sweeping away the here and now.

Obviously.

now, the question I asked, how do you determine when class consciousness has arrived?

When a majority of the working class are actively proposing the establishment of socialism by preparing and planning for the eventual transformation.

 

[fractionMan]

The thing is, most people are reasonably satisfied with their lot. They're not starving to death.

The go to work, go out with their mates, have a family/gf, have the odd holiday, live in a house, eat food, watch telly, do stuff they like in their spare time, raise kids.

I wouldn't say people consider the socialist message to be utopian, they consider it to be worse.

 

[fractionMan]

Sorry, worse is the wrong word. I meant irrelevant.

What exactly would change?

They'd still go to work, go out with their mates, have a family/gf, have the odd holiday, live in a house, eat food, watch telly, do stuff they like in their spare time, raise kids.

 

[FreddyB]

Actually the reverse is happening to what you perceive is occurring with the workers doing the pointing at us and declaring we are the genuine expression of class consciousness.

You're delusional

 

[newbie]

No the case for socialism has not been put to the greater majority, so there is no evidence to suggest the case has been rejected.

yes it has, we're not as thick or as uneducated as you seem to think. This thread alone has been going for over a month and has attracted 13,000 views. That much is quantifiable (as is the 55,000 views on the Liverpool FC thread). Your party has been putting your case for a century, plenty of others have put their own case.

All of us know, in outline, what's meant by socialism and have thought about it. And it's been rejected, quite consciously, by the vast majority.

That same vast majority also know what's meant by capitalism and, again quite consciously, have accepted it. Although many grumble few have much appetite for your 'socialist analysis'. They know what it is you're on about, why you think it's a good idea, why you think they should join in with you, why you think you know best but, quite consciously, they don't want socialism.

They've reflected on their individual experiences and on the collective experiences of their peers, here and abroad, now and in the past. Pretending that the vast majority are yearning to be educated, and will grasp the idea with both hands as soon as it's revealed to them, is ridiculous. That may have happened a hundred and more years ago when people genuinely were exposed to the idea for the first time, but it ain't happening now. Now, your patient explanations fall on deaf ears because the vast majority have heard it all before and, quite simply, reject it.

When a majority of the working class are actively proposing the establishment of socialism by preparing and planning for the eventual transformation.

So class consciousness has nothing to do with the class knowing what it wants, as it does at the moment, and everything to do with agreeing with you.

 

[Gravediggers]

You're delusional

We are only delusional to you because you specifically reject class consciousness. It don't exist, its a fiction of the mind, a fantasy in your estimation, despite the fact there are thousands of workers who are living proof there is such a thing as class consciousness.

 

[fractionMan]

'thousands'

This class consciousness does sound a bit like divine revelation. You know that right?