SPGB

[butchersapron]

The question is not what what answers have you missed, but what daft questions have you asked after posts that make them redundant. For example, i say i reject the class consciousness model - you then ask me of what stuff does class consciousness consist.

 

[Gravediggers]

The question is not what what answers have you missed, but what daft questions have you asked after posts that make them redundant. For example, i say i reject the class consciousness model - you then ask me of what stuff does class consciousness consist.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as class consciousness? If so this means logically you do not consider yourself a class conscious member of the working class.

You are serious in making this statement I take it?

 

[butchersapron]

Have you been reading this thread?

 

[FreddyB]

Whatever leaders you care to name, and where ever you like and when ever you like.

I don't know where you're going with this but lets say yes. I follow leaders of various types in a variety of circumstances for a variety of reasons.

 

[Gravediggers]

Have you been reading this thread?

I most certainly have that's why I went back to Post 1366 where you made the following:

My take on class consciousness? I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all - it leads to the daft sort of stuff that you've just come up with above and if not handled properly (again, see your long above post) opens the trapdoor to all sorts of vanguardism.

Which by the insertion of, "I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all", clearly states your mind is still open on the subject. Now it appears you have come off the fence by rejecting the class consciousness model entirely. I'm bumping up my post to make it plain there are serious implications to this rejection.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as class consciousness? If so this means logically you do not consider yourself a class conscious member of the working class.

You are serious in making this statement I take it?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm saying, as i've said many times before, that i reject the class consciousness model - it's a trap door through which vanguardists like yourselves gleefully jump.

 

[Gravediggers]

I don't know where you're going with this but lets say yes. I follow leaders of various types in a variety of circumstances for a variety of reasons.

Fine, that's what we needed to know, thanks for that. Now it would be helpful if you would confirm you are an anarchist. And if so what type do you consider yourself to be.

 

[butchersapron]

We

 

[Gravediggers]

I'm saying, as i've said many times before, that i reject the class consciousness model - it's a trap door through which vanguardists like yourselves gleefully jump.

No butchers you never said it many times before. If you reject the class consciousness model how can you describe yourself as class conscious? What is your criteria for class consciousness. In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?

 

[FreddyB]

Fine, that's what we needed to know, thanks for that. Now it would be helpful if you would confirm you are an anarchist. And if so what type do you consider yourself to be.

Is this market research? Do you shape your message based on my answers? This stems from me saying that the vision of a socialist future is disconnected from here and now but I'll bite and keep it short. I consider myself to be a class struggle anarchist - This doesn't mean you can tell me what I think though. Please try and stick to the things I've actually said.

 

[butchersapron]

No butchers you never said it many times before. If you reject the class consciousness model how can you describe yourself as class conscious? What is your criteria for class consciousness. In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?

I've said it many many times. As i said yesterday, there are more threads than this one.

I see that you're struggling with this. Think about what i've said and then think about your questions. They don't make any sense do they?

 

[robbo203]

I'm saying, as i've said many times before, that i reject the class consciousness model - it's a trap door through which vanguardists like yourselves gleefully jump.

Au contraire Its the lack of class consciousness that permits vanguardism to flourish. What need of a vanguard to lead us when we all know and desire where we are heading in the first place - classless communism

 

[butchersapron]

That's pure vanguardism there. Agree with me or be damned. I now know that you genuinely can't see it though.

 

[Gravediggers]

I've said it many many times. As i said yesterday, there are more threads than this one.

I see that you're struggling with this. Think about what i've said and then think about your questions. They don't make any sense do they?

Yes I agree they don't make any sense because you are avoiding the question yet again. Do you accept that class consciousness does exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
No butchers you never said it many times before. If you reject the class consciousness model how can you describe yourself as class conscious? What is your criteria for class consciousness. In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?

 

[butchersapron]

i reject the class consciousness model

how can you describe yourself as class conscious? What is your criteria for class consciousness. In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?

eh?

 

[butchersapron]

Tell me about false consciousness robbo and SPGBers.

 

[Gravediggers]

I've said it many many times. As i said yesterday, there are more threads than this one.

I see that you're struggling with this. Think about what i've said and then think about your questions. They don't make any sense do they?

eh?

When are you going to answer the question, "In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?"

 

[Gravediggers]

Tell me about false consciousness robbo and SPGBers.

Slipping and sliding wont get you off the hook. Answer the bloody question for fucks sake, "In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?"

 

[DotCommunist]

Ironically this thread has been running for ages and is well boring

 

[dannysp]

To counter the charge that The WSM and the SPGB was vanguardist I put up the Socialist Standard article in this link.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr98/follower.html Never a follower be.

Not one response to this fine piece of journalism that put our Party's case against leadership, not one.

Could no one be bothered to read it? Or is it rock solid and can't be taken to pieces?

 

[Gravediggers]

Ironically this thread has been running for ages and is well boring

Well why don't you start to liven things up by posing some questions you think are relevant to class struggle.

 

[butchersapron]

To counter the charge that The WSM and the SPGB was vanguardist I put up the Socialist Standard article in this link.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/apr98/follower.html Never a follower be.

Not one response to this fine piece of journalism that put our Party's case against leadership, not one.

Could no one be bothered to read it? Or is it rock solid and can't be taken to pieces?

I can find you a million articles from the USSR saying that it was socialist. Does that mean that it actually was?

 

[butchersapron]

Ironically this thread has been running for ages and is well boring

Fitting mind.

 

[butchersapron]

Slipping and sliding wont get you off the hook. Answer the bloody question for fucks sake, "In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?"

An explicit answer to your question is neither slipping nor sliding.

i reject the class consciousness model

 

[dannysp]

Ironically this thread has been running for ages and is well boring

Is there there the possibility that you could be missing the point?

 

[DotCommunist]

there is the slimmest possibility that I might be taking the piss not the point, yes.

 

[dannysp]

Originally Posted by me (butch)
i reject the class consciousness model


What model do you accept?

 

[Gravediggers]

An explicit answer to your question is neither slipping nor sliding.

You are slipping and sliding. I'm not explicitly pinning you down on a 'model' but a concept. So answer the fucking question, "In fact do you accept that class consciousness does exist?"

 

[butchersapron]

I reject the class consciousness concept

 

[Gravediggers]

there is the slimmest possibility that I might be taking the piss not the point, yes.

Is this the only contribution you are capable of making? Surely you have a question up your sleeve which is relevant to class struggle?