SPGB

[Louis MacNeice]

Just like Julie Birchall you don't notice appreciation when it's obvious. Or you choose to reject it from dimwits like myself. You are so egoistic I'm sure you are quite capable of applying self-censorship to anything you care to mention.

Who is Julie Birchall?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Gravediggers]

Who is Julie Birchall?

Louis MacNeice

And here is me thinking you were a friend of google.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

And here is me thinking you were a friend of google.

Did you mean?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[TomR77]

Louis MacNeice and Butchersapron have destroyed this thread. I am sick of their attitude to other contributors. I wouldn't mind, but I don't even find their posts funny. It seems to me their only intention is to come on here and sneer at anyone with a different view.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Louis MacNeice and Butchersapron have destroyed this thread. I am sick of their attitude to other contributors. I wouldn't mind, but I don't even find their posts funny. It seems to me their only intention is to come on here and sneer at anyone with a different view.

Is that our crime?

Louis MacNeice

 

[belboid]

Louis MacNeice and Butchersapron have destroyed this thread. I am sick of their attitude to other contributors.

 

[Proper Tidy]

You are going over old ground here. You know the SPGB make a clear distinction between the struggle for reforms and the struggle for revolution. How is our time and effort wasted by making this distinction? You have consistently tried to make the case that for you there is no dividing line between the two, when clearly there have been numerous contributions on this thread and others which say otherwise.

In this attempt to converge the two very different concepts you have constantly ignored the lessons of history and the evidence by Marx and Engles viz the 1872 preface of the CM, plus the history of the Social Democratic movement. Its old hat, its been tried over and over again and failed. So of course if you continue to ignore what went before and despite the evidence to the contrary you are indeed wasting your time and effort besides being dogmatic.

No, it is you who has misunderstood my point.

Okay - we, as in us pesky Trots etc - are wasting our 'time and effort' by engaging in day to day struggle, or 'reformism'.

But so are you - you state that SPGB members also involve themselves in the day to day, just not as an SPGB bloc.

So where is the advantage for you? You still waste your 'time and effort' don't you? The only difference is that you don't do it as an SPGB bloc - meaning you can't bring workers into that bloc (as it doesn't exist) through struggle.

So where is the advantage?

We do not abstain from the political process apart from election politics. We have debated with all and sundry. And we are always willing to debate with any political organisation or party. We have also held forums with those organisations who seek a moneyless, free access, common ownership, production for use society despite the fact our respective ideas on how to attain it are at odds. We attend demonstrations and our opponents meetings to state our case. What more do you want and more to the point what more is available?

I have pointed out the distinction, on another thread, between the political system and the political process. It appears you see them one and the same when in actual fact they are not. We won't touch the political system with a barge pole whereas your support for reforms and transitional demands clearly do mean getting your hands dirty.

I'm not talking about debate or propocandising - I'm talking about involving yourselves in the political process (not system) once elected. Why should anybody vote for you, if all you will do is propagandise?

By the SPGB abstaining from the political system this provides the workers with a valid alternative to capitalism. And yes if we failed to provide this alternative the workers would be stuck in the crevasse of reformist measures rather than the rut of not understanding the full implications of democracy. Possibly it could be argued that support for reforms had served a useful purpose, the struggle for democracy, and TU recognition, for instance.

But you don't abstain from the political system - it is the opposite, you abstain from the process but not the system - you stand in elections but won't do anything if elected!

Your case rests on the assumption that by supporting reforms there is still some life in the old dog(ma) yet. We argue the converse and explain that with the battle for democracy being won, we have now reached the stage where it is a struggle for ideas.

Then why are our ideas not yet supported on a mass scale?

We are obligated to participate in the political process, and in this respect all socialist delegates will be mandated to rigorously pursue working class interests. To do otherwise would mean participation in the political system. To clarify still further, and as I explained earlier, the socialist delegates will be rebels, but they will also be rebels by the non-participation in representative democracy and exercising participatory democracy. This will indeed upset the apple cart but in the battle for ideas socialist ideas must be put to the test in practical terms.

So this is an admission that you will abstain from participation in the process, system, whatever, if elected. Again, why the hell would anybody vote for you? It is liking going to a caff for lunch which has no food.

What I've said in the previous paragraph provides every reason why the workers should vote for socialism. In fighting for working class interests of course s/he will have the support of the Socialist Party, and of socialists.

I agree 'workers should vote for socialism' although why they would vote for SPGB is a complete mystery.

 

[Gravediggers]

Louis MacNeice and Butchersapron have destroyed this thread. I am sick of their attitude to other contributors. I wouldn't mind, but I don't even find their posts funny. It seems to me their only intention is to come on here and sneer at anyone with a different view.

I beg to differ. Its the obvious absence of Proper Tidy and his supporters who have failed to reply to the stinging criticisms posted which maybe destroying this thread. I suspect he's licking his wounds or possibly seeking reinforcements. But on the other hand he could be employing the tactic of ignoring the criticisms in order to justify the charge of the SPGB being an irrelevance. Which reminds me isn't that the last refuge of the scoundrel?

 

[butchersapron]

Into the dustbin of history!

What timing.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Neither TomR77 or myself argued what you are arguing here, rather the reverse. By deliberately deleting my full quote you are attempting to grasp at straws. Sorry it won't work, not by far.

Tom argued the point that a 'reform' in one area is just going to take money from a different area. That is what he said. I only quoted half of what you said because it was the only part relevant to what Tom had said, nothing sinister or devious.

Tom appears to believe that we have a set budget to work from, and more worryingly that striving for an improvement in one area will have an impact elsewhere so is pointless - ignoring the fact that the improvement would be in the interests of the working class, whereas the impact elsewhere would be on the wealthiest. This sounds suspiciously like a national interest argument to me.

 

[belboid]

the stinging criticisms

it just gets better and better

 

[Proper Tidy]

I beg to differ. Its the obvious absence of Proper Tidy and his supporters who have failed to reply to the stinging criticisms posted which maybe destroying this thread. I suspect he's licking his wounds or possibly seeking reinforcements. But on the other hand he could be employing the tactic of ignoring the criticisms in order to justify the charge of the SPGB being an irrelevance. Which reminds me isn't that the last refuge of the scoundrel?

When have I 'sought reinforcements' you tool?

Projecting again I see. I don't feel the need to rally the troops to help me out, unlike you, and I don't see u75 as the battle-ground of socialist ideas, unlike you. I don't know why I keep coming back - morbid curiosity I suppose.

 

[Gravediggers]

I beg to differ. Its the obvious absence of Proper Tidy and his supporters who have failed to reply to the stinging criticisms posted which maybe destroying this thread. I suspect he's licking his wounds or possibly seeking reinforcements. But on the other hand he could be employing the tactic of ignoring the criticisms in order to justify the charge of the SPGB being an irrelevance. Which reminds me isn't that the last refuge of the scoundrel?

With Proper Tidy back on I withdraw my observations and comments above.

 

[Proper Tidy]

With Proper Tidy back on I withdraw my observations and comments above.

Oh boo to me, I went to bed then had the audacity to go out this morning. I should of course have stayed logged on for fear I may be accused of running away.

 

[Gravediggers]

No, it is you who has misunderstood my point.

Okay - we, as in us pesky Trots etc - are wasting our 'time and effort' by engaging in day to day struggle, or 'reformism'.

But so are you - you state that SPGB members also involve themselves in the day to day, just not as an SPGB bloc.

So where is the advantage for you? You still waste your 'time and effort' don't you? The only difference is that you don't do it as an SPGB bloc - meaning you can't bring workers into that bloc (as it doesn't exist) through struggle.

So where is the advantage?

I can see that this discussion is going to end up as a list of distinctions. I have repeatedly emphasised that it is politically useless and a waste of time and effort to attempt to make a link between reforms and revolution. I have also continued to demonstrate that socialists find it impossible to opt out of the day-to-day class struggle and have to be involved. I have admitted that the workers have to improve their conditions under capitalism, with the caveat that although we acknowledge the struggle for reforms can be part of the class struggle they can not be by the evidence of history be the struggle for revolution. Socialists do not participate in the day-to-day struggle to gain an advantage. Indeed, what advantage is to be gained in dealing with the effects of reforms?

I'm not talking about debate or propocandising - I'm talking about involving yourselves in the political process (not system) once elected. Why should anybody vote for you, if all you will do is propagandise?

Would you rather we done a Guy Fawkes?

But you don't abstain from the political system - it is the opposite, you abstain from the process but not the system - you stand in elections but won't do anything if elected!

So to you standing in defiance of representative democracy and advocating participatory democracy by example is doing nothing. If you fail to see that activity as an act of revolution you are more blinkered than I thought.

Then why are our ideas not yet supported on a mass scale?

It could well be that the workers are not ready for them, or perhaps they are unaware of the alternatives. I dunno you tell me? If you think there is some kind of magic wand think again!

So this is an admission that you will abstain from participation in the process, system, whatever, if elected. Again, why the hell would anybody vote for you? It is liking going to a caff for lunch which has no food.

No we do not and wont abstain form the political process.

I agree 'workers should vote for socialism' although why they would vote for SPGB is a complete mystery.

This being the case and you agree with our definition of socialism how come you see it as a mystery?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I can see that this discussion is going to end up as a list of distinctions. I have repeatedly emphasised that it is politically useless and a waste of time and effort to attempt to make a link between reforms and revolution. I have also continued to demonstrate that socialists find it impossible to opt out of the day-to-day class struggle and have to be involved. I have admitted that the workers have to improve their conditions under capitalism, with the caveat that although we acknowledge the struggle for reforms can be part of the class struggle they can not be by the evidence of history be the struggle for revolution. Socialists do not participate in the day-to-day struggle to gain an advantage. Indeed, what advantage is to be gained in dealing with the effects of reforms?

You're deliberately missing the point here, aren't you?

You assert that we are 'wasting time and effort' engaging in day to day struggle.

You also asset that those in the SPGB engage in day to day struggle - or 'waste time and effort' - just not as an organised bloc.

So where is the advantage for you?

Would you rather we done a Guy Fawkes?

I would rather you use your elected political position to do something positive for the people who have voted for you. To abstain will only smear all socialists and lead the electorate to think we are all useless in political office.

So to you standing in defiance of representative democracy and advocating participatory democracy by example is doing nothing. If you fail to see that activity as an act of revolution you are more blinkered than I thought.

But nobody elects you to propagandise. They elect you to make a difference, which you refuse to do.

It could well be that the workers are not ready for them, or perhaps they are unaware of the alternatives. I dunno you tell me?

It could well be that we do not yet have the required level of class consciousness and consequently insufficient desire to abolish capitalism. Ergo, we do not have the right conditions, and pamphlets and speaker's corner will do little to change this.

No we do not and wont abstain form the political process.

But you do. Standing for elections but abstaining from representing your electorate is no different to electing a shop steward who then refuses to represent his members.

This being the case and you agree with our definition of socialism how come you see it as a mystery?

Your definition of socialism is sound. Your understanding of how to get there is non-existent. I like the idea of living on a fluffy white cloud in perpetual ecstasy too, but I'm yet to join a fundie church.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Did you mean?

Louis MacNeice

GD you never got back to me on this question.

Louis MacNeice

 

[barney_pig]

Sorry, please do remind me of everything you have achived in your 100+ years of existence.

Oh you already have. Absolutely nothing.

always a joy when a leninist comes up with this one
what would be the leninist roll achievements of the alst 100 years?
the bolshevik coup
the suppression of all other socialists
the banning of strikes
the repression of the anarchists
the massacre of kronstadt
the the enforced collectivization
the ukranian famine
extermination of the kulaks
the doctors plot
the great purges
the march madness
the third period
the Hitler/stalin pact
the crushing of the spanish revolution
the smashing of the berlin building workers in1953
the betrayal of the greek revolution
the invasion of hungary
the invasion of czechoslovakia
the great leap forward
the cultural revolution
Pol Pot
shining Path
black september
Tiannamen Square

so much to be proud of

 

[belboid]

and so many points to miss entirely

(btw, it is entirely unnecessary to be a 'trot' whtever that might be these days, to think the SPGB are just a pathetic joke)

 

[Proper Tidy]

always a joy when a leninist comes up with this one
what would be the leninist roll achievements of the alst 100 years?
the bolshevik coup
the suppression of all other socialists
the banning of strikes
the repression of the anarchists
the massacre of kronstadt
the the enforced collectivization
the ukranian famine
extermination of the kulaks
the doctors plot
the great purges
the march madness
the third period
the Hitler/stalin pact
the crushing of the spanish revolution
the smashing of the berlin building workers in1953
the betrayal of the greek revolution
the invasion of hungary
the invasion of czechoslovakia
the great leap forward
the cultural revolution
Pol Pot
shining Path
black september
Tiannamen Square

so much to be proud of

Yeah, I did all of that. Like to keep busy, you know.

Do we really class Maoists as Leninists btw?

 

[belboid]

ex-trots do often like to blame trots for everything done in the name of 'communism' I notice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Yeah, I did all of that. Like to keep busy, you know.

Do we really class Maoists as Leninists btw?

They are all part of capitalism's left wing; apologists one and all. It is only the SPGB (well one or other of them anyway) who aren't...or something like that.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[dennisr]

With Proper Tidy back on I withdraw my observations and comments above.

my how generous.

some of us have to work for a living you plonker

 

[dannysp]

Yeah, I did all of that. Like to keep busy, you know.

Do we really class Maoists as Leninists btw?

The left have fucked up big time everywhere and always whenever they've got their hands on power. The SPGB have fucked up nothing. The crime of the SPGB as far as the left is concerned is not so much that it would have nothing to do with the fuck ups, but that it predicted them, knowing you can't have Socialism without Socialists.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The left have fucked up big time everywhere and always whenever they've got their hands on power. The SPGB have fucked up nothing. The crime of the SPGB as far as the left is concerned is not so much that it would have nothing to do with the fuck ups, but that it predicted them, knowing you can't have Socialism without Socialists.

True.

If you never do anything, ever, then nobody can ever accuse you of anything (except doing nothing, of course).

Excellent logic.

Btw, the terrible trots were busy getting exiled and executed for speaking out against authoritarian communism when the rest of the left were tied up fantasising over five year plans and Moscow show trials, so I'll be fucked if I'll let a few people on a message board pin the fucking Hitler/Stalin pact on the tradition.

 

[Jean-Luc]

Btw, the terrible trots were busy getting exiled and executed for speaking out against authoritarian communism when the rest of the left were tied up fantasising over five year plans and Moscow show trials, so I'll be fucked if I'll let a few people on a message board pin the fucking Hitler/Stalin pact on the tradition.

I think only one person here could be interpreted as making this absurd accusation and I don't think he has anything to do with the SPGB. I don't think the SPGB was fantasising over 5-Year Plans either but was saying that Russia was state capitalist. Your "terrible trots" however were saying throughout this period that Russia was some sort of "workers state" despite the fact that the workers there were exploited and oppressed. And they were (and still are) fantasising over 5-Year Plans as here:

What remained of the workers' state, however, was a planned economy; an economy not owned by private individuals in order to make a profit as under capitalism, but owned by the state.
Lenin and Trotsky's aim was a planned economy run democratically by committees of workers for the benefit of all.
However, when Stalin and the bureaucracy took control, workers were allowed no input into how the economy or society was run.
Despite this deformation of the planned economy, Russia progressed economically from a backward country to a superpower. This proves what could be possible if an economy is planned.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The left have fucked up big time everywhere and always whenever they've got their hands on power. The SPGB have fucked up nothing. The crime of the SPGB as far as the left is concerned is not so much that it would have nothing to do with the fuck ups, but that it predicted them, knowing you can't have Socialism without Socialists.

THe SPGB has commited no crimes. How could it. However, the SPGB and its members have and continue to be, by turns, a risible, ignorant, charming, slightly irritating, po-faced, entertaining, smug irrelevance.

Well done chaps for keeping the history alive - Louis MacNeice

p.s. GD (or one of the reinforcements) who is Julie Birchall?

 

[belboid]

(or one of the reinforcements)

you think GD rang all his other comrades (or sent a telegraph, that being more appropriate to their members ages) to say 'quick! someone is actually talking to us, come and help'?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

you think GD rang all his other comrades (or sent a telegraph, that being more appropriate to their members ages) to say 'quick! someone is actually talking to us, come and help'?

Do you think it is urely coincidence that that on this, and on the 'Welsh' thread, we have enjoyed the company of such a percentage of the SPGB's membership?
This is the very cut and thrust of political activity for GD; surely he'd want to share the opportunity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice