SPGB
- Thread starter Proper Tidy
- Start date
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
The opportunity to put 'the case for socialism' (singular and definite article) is obviously better here than in your workplace.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Gravediggers
New Member
I did not nor intend to deliberately miss the point. For some reason you have gained the impression that individual socialists have no 'advantage' to gain by being involved in the day-to-day struggle for this is a waste of effort and time. And that to be consistent they need to follow the party line by abstaining from the struggle. Individual socialists are consistent when participating in the day-to-day struggle by not getting involved in supporting reformist activity. Of course there is no advantage to be gained when dealing with the effects of reforms, other than like I've stated, to use it as an opportunity to put the case for socialism.
It depends on what you mean by positive. Surely it is a positive step by advocating and practicing participatory democracy rather than staying with the status quo of representative democracy and all the implications that go with it? If we accepted representative democracy it would mean the socialist delegate having to take up all and every issue and problem of capitalism. Whereas, by practicing participatory democracy we bound by mandate to only take up the issues and problems that are in the interest of the working class. This is in fact doing something for the people who voted for us and we are not abstaining from their mandate to express their interests.
But you are missing the point here, for we have in fact been elected to propagate the socialist case and nothing less, with the intention of making a difference in how democracy can be used in the interest of the working class.
Just because the conditions are not as yet present is no reason to abandon the class struggle. In fact it provides all the more reason to participate by way of pamphlets and speakers corner, etc, etc.
We will represent those voters who voted for us but we will refuse to represent those voters who still desire changes to capitalism.
If you see our definition of socialism as sound you need to figure out the full implications of that definition in respect of understanding the concurrent activity. This entails using the democratic political process to bring about a majority of socialists for with out this majority who have volunteered their support we won't have socialism.
Gravediggers
New Member
Crikey! Louis I would careful for you are starting to make a bit of sense at long last.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
You're still not getting what I am saying. I don't know how I can re-phrase it yet again.
Of course you can contribute as individuals. But what is the advantage of not doing so as an organised bloc? You are still 'wasting your time and effort' - so no advantage - but you are not able to bring fellow workers into your bloc - so a disadvantage.
Participatory democracy my arse! Okay, so you as an SPGB member gets elected as a councillor (I know, far fetched). This isn't going to make any significant contribution to either establishing socialism or to participatory democracy. So why would anybody bother electing you just for you to abstain? You are avoiding the points raised.
Well, you haven't been elected, have you? And your position on what you will do if elected probably explains why.
I never said it was a 'reason to abandon class struggle'. It may, however, give cause to broaden your efforts beyond pamphlets and speakers corner though, no?
That'll win 'em over.
Still missing the point. How to get there, GD. This debate is a bit like snakes and ladders isn't it.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Only to you GD...only to you. And you still can't answer a straight forward question; who is Julie Birchall?
Louis MacNeice
Gravediggers
New Member
Did you mean?
Louis MacNeice
That's here for sure but a bit dated. Must have been taken when she gave a donation to the SPGB.
Gravediggers
New Member
Only if you insist Louis.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You take money off of stalinists?
Gravediggers
New Member
All donations are gratefully received. Even one off you. No strings attached tho.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Julie Burchill, who had her dad whisper in her ear as a child in the sixties, when the US were being thrown out of Vietnam by the Vietnamese, 'we've won'.
I admire her for her consistent championing of the working-class. Julie, like us all, has some contradictions though. First, claiming that she has never renounced the Communist beliefs of her youth, but then later announcing to all that she had 'found God', became a Lutheran and later a "self-confessed Christian Zionist".
Gravediggers
New Member
No that's Julie Birchill.
Louis MacNeice
p.s. I've also corrected your post.
Thanks Louis for the correction. Mystery solved. Hope it adds to you ego.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Alter ego surely?
Louis MacNeice
p.s. and I've treated you to another correction. How's your gender idenfication?
Gravediggers
New Member
Thanks again Louis. But gender *idenfication* is irrelevant in respect of impersonations.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Gravediggers
New Member
Thanks for correcting your typo, it certainly provides meaning to impersonations.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
So Belboid's right then; in fact you're clueless and dishonest, an all round great advert for the 'case'.
Louis MacNeice
Gravediggers
New Member
Excuse me, but you seemed to have forgotten that most members joined the SPGB precisely because of their stand on reforms. Many like myself had worked it out for themselves and gave a sigh of relief when eventually they came across a party which expressed and reflected their political understanding of capitalism - in that seeking improvements to the condition of wage slavery only perpetuates the situation. And in truth is an exercise in running on the spot. Yet it has to be engaged in if we are determined to stay out of the gutter.
This is an advantage for the working class cos it allows them to become involved in class struggle as individuals whilst their preference for revolution remains a class issue rather than an individual issue.
I have not avoided the points raised. The workers are going to elect us on a clear mandate of non-participation in representative democracy. That does not entail us from abstaining from the political process, far from it. And if you hold the opinion, "This isn't going to make any significant contribution ... ...", are you not also denying the power of the vote to make exactly this contribution to revolutionary practice?
No we haven't been elected but we will continue stand for election so long has our resources allow us. Without a majority of socialists we won't get socialism. I agree that our position in regards to explaining the revolutionary process can be on times a bit difficult to understand as evidenced by your repeated questions on the subject of participatory democracy.
Nevertheless, as history well illustrates the struggle for democracy was centuries in the making. We are now at the stage when the idea of establishing a participatory democracy makes the struggle for self-emancipation that much nearer. It must be achieved if humanity wants and wishes for progress in our understanding of social evolution.
I know you never said to abandon the class struggle, but that seemed the logical implication to what you said.
We are always open to suggestions of a positive nature.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
As I said clueless and dishonest; inventing implications and pretending openess. You're a proper politician, just like the rest.
Louis MacNeice
Gravediggers
New Member
Shame on you Louis, when you can't see the joke I'm making at your expense.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Why can't you answer this question? How many different ways do I have to phrase it?
Given that we have established your criticism that others on the left are 'wasting time and effort' is false, as you also 'waste time and effort', what is the advantage for SPGB to refuse to organise as a bloc?
It really is a very simple question, yet you keep coming back with ever more convoluted replies which don't bloody answer it! Just answer it for pity's sake man.
Gravediggers
New Member
You have not established any such thing, despite the fact that you are trying very hard to do so. What has been established is this: The left are wasting time and effort by trying to amalgamate reformism with revolution; the left and individual socialists are wasting time and effort when engaging in the effects of reforms; and despite the fact it's part and parcel of class struggle, it is a struggle against the effects of capitalist exploitation and the retention of the status quo; in effect there is no advantage to be gained in this aspect of class struggle; whereas there is every advantage to be gained by individual socialists to engage in the revolutionary struggle to establish socialism through a socialist party, for it is here the workers establish themselves as a class for its self and for them to affirm that this struggle is not a waste of time and effort.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Crikey. They could just replace you lot with a recorded message you know.
whichfinder
New Member
Then if you listened to it enough times it might just start to sink in. Second thoughts; no such luck!
Gravediggers
New Member
uote:
Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
Have you ever considered that once you attain your description of socialism/communism that the situation may well arise with the working class turning around and saying these improvements will do us nicely and refuse to budge an inch? With your long-term strategy in tatters through the use of short-term tactics will your next move be an attempt to impose socialism/communism whether the workers want it or not? That is definitely a prescription for failure.
ProperTidy its noticeable you have failed to reply to this. I know its a pain but.... This is my second bump up.
Last edited by Gravediggers; 05-05-2010 at 01:27.
Gravediggers
New Member
Re-posted from TUSC thread post number 286
It seems Proper Tidy has promised to abandon his political principles for internationalism. No doubt he will have a ready made excuse why. If he was a member of the SPGB he would be out on his arse sharpish. Voting for the enemy illustrates quite clearly how opportunists operate when they lack a political consciousness on their class interests.
It seems Proper Tidy has promised to abandon his political principles for internationalism. No doubt he will have a ready made excuse why. If he was a member of the SPGB he would be out on his arse sharpish. Voting for the enemy illustrates quite clearly how opportunists operate when they lack a political consciousness on their class interests.
Well, that is precisely the point - I didnt have "other political activity" in mind, I was referring to something other than political activity.
Despite the entertaining drivel provided by the assorted clowns on this thread scoffing at the SPGB and its accomplishments (or lack of), I think the SPGB is far more right than it is wrong. Certainly it hasnt achieved much but you cannot simply dismiss what the SPGB has to say on this pretext. This is just not serious criticism. I do have one or two reservations about what the SPGB has to say but any fair minded critic has to acknowlege that the arguments in general presented by the SPGB are formidable and have stood the test of time. They havenet yet been widely accepted but then how long did it take for a helio-centric view of the universe to replace one in which everything, including the sun, revolved around the earth? The extent of support for an idea is no indicator of its veracity. If it was we should all be filing obediently into the polling booths to vote Conservative who I see are set to have the largest share of the vote as I write.
The SPGB has not made much progress in my view not becuase there is much wrong with its political approach - though there are one or two aspects of its case in serious need of modification - but becuase of this problematic relation with "praxis" , with the day to day business of trying to get by in capitalism. To put it differently, socialism appears to come across as some remote disembodied ideal, theoretically plasusible and attractive no doubt, but disconnected from the lives of workers.
This is why I think we need something to complement the political approach of the SPGB. The SPGB is part of the solution in the way that state capitalist Leninist Left can never be. The "abstract propagandism" of the SPGB, necessary though it is, is not enough if we are to make real progress towards a socialist society. And I am not here just talking about the obvious point that socialist ideas do not just stem from the material conditions of class struggle that we live in. What needs to be acknowledged is the vital importance of fostering material relationships in the here and now that prefigure and lend crdibility to socialism as an idea.
This is what the SPGB fails to do and as a consequnece comes across unfortunately as promoting an ideal that has little relevance to the pressing needs of workers today. That may be qiute wrong but it is precisely the impression that counts in this case.
Similar threads
