Speeding and general dangerous driving in and around Brixton

[T & P]

But at present a complete impossibility unless it was a smart limiter that adapts to the speed limit of the road/ area you’re travelling through. Otherwise they’d have to limit usage of zipcars to within inner London only, which would lose Zipcar a great amount of business as lots of people use them on journeys through 40, 50, 60 and 70 mph roads around outer London.

 

[thebackrow]

Zipcars are also used, and frequently so, for 2-3 hour trips that include journeys on A-roads and motorways around London. A 30 mph speed limiter is not a viable option. Certainly not a 'blanket' one that doesn't change when the car is travelling on faster roads.

A smart speed limiter that adjusts automatically to the local speed limits would however work a treat. I am sure the techonology already exists to implement such devices, but I think we're at least a decade or two away before we see it being introduced.

Maybe sooner than you think -
All New Cars To Have Speed Limiters Fitted, Rules European Parliament

Pretty easy to retro fit such a system as well - it's basically just a GPS SatNav and a Cruise Control (which in many cars can be set a as a limiter). Potentially could be as simple as a software update at service...

 

[alex_]

But at present a complete impossibility unless it was a smart limiter that adapts to the speed limit of the road/ area you’re travelling through. Otherwise they’d have to limit usage of zipcars to within inner London only, which would lose Zipcar a great amount of business as lots of people use them on journeys through 40, 50, 60 and 70 mph roads around outer London.

This is hardly rocket science, it’s satnav crossed with cruise control.

 

[cuppa tee]

For an all in rental company like zip car its a complete no brainer, less speed will certainly equal lower insurance which equals lower fees.

Alex

Good to see someone has not fallen for the car 'club' green wash nonsense

 

[Chilli.s]

But at present a complete impossibility unless it was a smart limiter that adapts to the speed limit of the road/ area you’re travelling through.

Exactly! Even an idiot like me can see it wouldn't be too dificult to rig up every car on the road in a short time. It might just decrease immissions too. Could make transport quicker as flow alters to suit etc. etc. Massive fines for fiddling with the box. Learners unable to go crazy fast. the advantages are huge.

 

[T & P]

This is hardly rocket science, it’s satnav crossed with cruise control.

I agree, but as Winot pointed earlier the biggest challenge at the moment is not technological but political (and financial).

The cost of installing GPS- controlled interactive speed limiters (a big proportion of zipcars don’t have cruise at all) or the required software in their fleet would be very substantial, much more so if it was a compulsory feature as it would have to be absolutely fault-proof to avoid any potential legal issues (you can bet that any collision or accident that happened at a time when the limiter had allowed the car to travel at, say, 30 mph in a 20 street would be blamed on zipcar by the driver regardless of the circumstances of the accident).

AFAIK no car hire/ car fleet in the world has yet implemented a functioning interactive limiter that reacts and changes according to location. I’m sure once they become commonplace and proven-technology enough all car hire/ car club companies will adopt it. But I can’t see zipcar being the first to take the plunge. And there is absolutely no way imo the potential savings on insurance costs to them would be greater than the costs of introducing such technology in their fleet. As it is, car hire companies tend to generate juicy profits from insurance fees and claims anyway.

I think autonomous cars will be provide the first realistic opportunity of working interactive speed limiters. But retrofitting them in ordinary non-autonomous cars is a financial nonstarter.

 

[cuppa tee]

I agree, but as Winot
AFAIK no car hire/ car fleet in the world has yet implemented a functioning interactive limiter .

.....and yet the fiat we rented on our holidays had a big red warning light that came on when one went over the local speed limit. I assumed this was recorded so speeding fines could be dished out upon return of the vehicle......

 

[T & P]

.....and yet the fiat we rented on our holidays had a big red warning light that came on when one went over the local speed limit. I assumed this was recorded so speeding fines could be dished out upon return of the vehicle......

Yes, many built-in sat navs do this. Warning about speed limits will be a simple ask within the parameters of a functioning GPS when you think about it.

But devices that actually control functions of a car and have the power to override its human operator are a different ballgame. An in-car gps is no different in essence from Google Maps on your phone. It measures things and gives out information. But you cannot just wire it to a one of zipcar’s existing Polos’ engine and make it control its speed. You need additional hardware and software. And the cost of retrofitting it would certainly cost far more than any potential savings in insurance premiums.

 

[alex_]

I agree, but as Winot pointed earlier the biggest challenge at the moment is not technological but political (and financial).

The cost of installing GPS- controlled interactive speed limiters (a big proportion of zipcars don’t have cruise at all) or the required software in their fleet would be very substantial, much more so if it was a compulsory feature as it would have to be absolutely fault-proof to avoid any potential legal issues (you can bet that any collision or accident that happened at a time when the limiter had allowed the car to travel at, say, 30 mph in a 20 street would be blamed on zipcar by the driver regardless of the circumstances of the accident).

AFAIK no car hire/ car fleet in the world has yet implemented a functioning interactive limiter that reacts and changes according to location. I’m sure once they become commonplace and proven-technology enough all car hire/ car club companies will adopt it. But I can’t see zipcar being the first to take the plunge. And there is absolutely no way imo the potential savings on insurance costs to them would be greater than the costs of introducing such technology in their fleet. As it is, car hire companies tend to generate juicy profits from insurance fees and claims anyway.

I think autonomous cars will be provide the first realistic opportunity of working interactive speed limiters. But retrofitting them in ordinary non-autonomous cars is a financial nonstarter.

I think you are over complicating this - it doesn’t need to be bulletproof, all liability would still be with the driver.

Good luck with “The speed limiter let me speed officer therefore this is zipcars fault”

Even if a limiter was as simple as “in a town the limit is x, within 100 meters of an A road the limit is y, within 100 meters of a motorway the limit is 70” youd take out a lot of risk.

Cheap devices with gps cost less than 50 quid and they have a user interface. I can’t see why something a lot clever than I describe above wouldnt cost 100 quid in bulk, in cars with any sort of cruise control.

Also re zipcar - the insurance is included, reducing their insurance costs makes them money.

Alex

 

[Chilli.s]

Responsability could be all on the driver. If car is not compatable with the device then device reports any speeding, fine issued. shazam... no more speed cameras, income streem for whoever, more road safty.

 

[nick]

Good luck with “The speed limiter let me speed officer therefore this is zipcars fault”
Alex

For what it's worth, I vaguely remember reading in the news many years ago about Arthur Scargill getting off a speeding fine on the basis that the cruise control on his jag was faulty

 

[mauvais]

I think you are over complicating this - it doesn’t need to be bulletproof, all liability would still be with the driver.

Good luck with “The speed limiter let me speed officer therefore this is zipcars fault”

Even if a limiter was as simple as “in a town the limit is x, within 100 meters of an A road the limit is y, within 100 meters of a motorway the limit is 70” youd take out a lot of risk.

Cheap devices with gps cost less than 50 quid and they have a user interface. I can’t see why something a lot clever than I describe above wouldnt cost 100 quid in bulk, in cars with any sort of cruise control.

Also re zipcar - the insurance is included, reducing their insurance costs makes them money.

Alex

What could possibly go wrong with integrating aftermarket third party "Cheap devices with gps [that] cost less than 50 quid" into the control system of a load of vehicles?

 

[mauvais]

Maybe sooner than you think -
All New Cars To Have Speed Limiters Fitted, Rules European Parliament

Pretty easy to retro fit such a system as well - it's basically just a GPS SatNav and a Cruise Control (which in many cars can be set a as a limiter). Potentially could be as simple as a software update at service...

I'm hoping none of you lot are engineers.

 

[thebackrow]

I'm hoping none of you lot are engineers.

I think you're misunderstanding how modern cars work - this isn't some jerry rigged cable attached to the engine, it's all electronic.The physical bits of the install (removing any bits of the dashboard or steering wheel to fit manual controls) will the most difficult. A tested and approved bit of electronics will connect to the comms bus that runs through the car and links to the engine management system then enabled through a software update done by the dealer. I'm not saying your mum could do it, but the tech is simple and connecting it to the car is just a matter of plugging it in.

Cruise control
retro fit cruise kit £50ish
Gra Cruise Control Retrofit Kit Steering Column Switch Cable Loom Set VW Golf for sale online | eBay

 

[mauvais]

I think you're misunderstanding how modern cars work - this isn't some jerry rigged cable attached to the engine, it's all electronic.The physical bits of the install (removing any bits of the dashboard or steering wheel to fit manual controls) will the most difficult. A tested and approved bit of electronics will connect to the comms bus that runs through the car and links to the engine management system then enabled through a software update done by the dealer. I'm not saying your mum could do it, but the tech is simple and connecting it to the car is just a matter of plugging it in.

Cruise control
retro fit cruise kit £50ish
Gra Cruise Control Retrofit Kit Steering Column Switch Cable Loom Set VW Golf for sale online | eBay

I know how cars work, ta. I'm just glad you're not in charge of em.

Safety-critical system - Wikipedia

 

[alex_]

I know how cars work, ta. I'm just glad you're not in charge of em.

Safety-critical system - Wikipedia

None of us are suggesting we build it - but that the core components are commonly available and cheap.

I’m sure the manufacturers will have prototypes available already if the eu are possibly going to make it manditory in 3 years. I can see them giving it to zipcar, in exchange for access to the data produced.

Alex

 

[mauvais]

None of us are suggesting we build it - but that the core components are commonly available and cheap.

I’m sure the manufacturers will have prototypes available already if the eu are possibly going to make it manditory in 3 years. I can see them giving it to zipcar, in exchange for access to the data produced.

Alex

They will absolutely not retrofit anything. It would not be cheap, and to think otherwise would be to gloss over a huge number of issues.

This is integration into safety critical systems and it would need to be type approved on each vehicle before anyone (like insurers or lawyers) took it remotely seriously. This is never going to happen.

Aside from that, companies like Zipcar have very little to gain from the capability, and quite a lot to lose.

 

[alex_]

They will absolutely not retrofit anything. It would not be cheap, and to think otherwise would be to gloss over a huge number of issues.

This is integration into safety critical systems and it would need to be type approved on each vehicle before anyone (like insurers or lawyers) took it remotely seriously. This is never going to happen.

Aside from that, companies like Zipcar have very little to gain from the capability, and quite a lot to lose.

Companies like zipcar buy thousands of new cars per year, and I’d imagine turn over their whole fleet every three years. In three years the capability will be manditory.

Alex

 

[mauvais]

Companies like zipcar buy thousands of new cars per year, and I’d imagine turn over their whole fleet every three years. In three years the capability will be manditory.

Alex

Sure, if it becomes mandatory fitment or even common as OEM equipment. But that isn't what we've been talking about, which is retrofit.

 

[alex_]

Sure, if it becomes mandatory fitment or even common as OEM equipment. But that isn't what we've been talking about, which is retrofit.

One person has said that, everyone else has just pointed out how cheap they are.

Alex

 

[teuchter]

Speed limiters should have been on cars for years already, even if all they did was set 70 as a maximum. The reason they haven't been is down to the petrolhead lobby who think they should be able to make their own decisions about what speed is safe. Years of evidence show that allowing drivers to judge safe speed by themselves results in thousands of people being killed and injured every year but we don't change anything. The technology is now ready to warn about and apply local limits but I bet it'll be a long wait until it gets applied universally in the UK. I reckon it'll basically take a generation or so dying out and younger drivers growing up with a different attitude to how much freedom they should be allowed over the control of their vehicle without their psyche and self identity being irreparably compromised. I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[mauvais]

Have you got any evidence for your idea of it being generational?

Also: the maximum speed limit is higher than 70mph in much of the world.

 

[teuchter]

I think that as technology makes cars more autonomous (which is going to be a slow process as far as I can see), it will become normal to new drivers that they cannot control all functions of their vehicles. I reckon the trend towards leased or short term rented vehicles will also have an impact on how people view their cars.

 

[technical]

Car put a reasonable dent in a house this afternoon on corner of Elm Park and craster rd. Still can’t quite work out how driver managed it

 

[Gramsci]

Have you got any evidence for your idea of it being generational?

Also: the maximum speed limit is higher than 70mph in much of the world.

A comparison could be to drink driving.

When I was much younger I remember people boasting about how much they could drink and still just about drive home.

I don't think its socially acceptable to do that now.

 

[Rushy]

All new UK cars to have speed limiters by 2022 under EU plans which will be mirrored in the UK.

 

[teuchter]

The speed limiter is one of a range of safety features to be made mandatory from 2022, along with automated emergency braking, electronic data recorders and improved visibility built into lorries for drivers to see vulnerable cyclists and pedestrians around the vehicle.

Another thing that should have been done ages ago.

 

[Ol Nick]

Another thing that should have been done ages ago.

You say that, but suppose it's 10pm and I'm driving up Dulwich Road on my way back from distant Surrey doing 20 because it's the limit and because it's a narrow road with lots of pedestrians. Well if we all had speed limiters, how's the bloke who's been tailgating me for 5 minutes going to overtake me near Effra Parade and speed off to the lights at Brixton Water Lane? He's not. And then he's going to only be the second car at the lights and what's that going to do to his self-esteem?

 

[teuchter]

This is Russia, not Lambeth. And some might say it's an extreme example. But when I see cars on the pavement, smashed into lamposts and garden walls, and watch drivers happily mount the pavement to get around obstructions, whether that's the planters that were installed to block the roadway during the road closure experiment, or the other week when someone had got knocked off their bike, and was still lying on the road, and drivers were hooting at me, on the pavement, to get out of their way as they bypassed that accident scene - I don't think the mindset of this guy is very far away from many drivers currently to be found in the Brixton area.

 

[Winot]

This is now up:

About Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood