Socialist Party: good attempts at bridge building...

[treelover]

I just read this on Socialist Unity, this open pluralist approach inviting all to give their views on a new Workers Party has to be seen as a positive thing. and is precisely the way the left can get out its present dire state. I'm not sure i would join one after my experiences with the Socialist Alliance and the SWP, but full marks to them...

I understand that last weekend the officers group of the Socialist party inspired Campaign for a New Workers Party (CNWP) decided to hold an open Discussion Forum, with a Question and Answer session, for two hours at the beginning of the CNWP Conference on Sunday June 29.

They intend to invite speakers from the different left projects, including Respect Renewal, CNWP, the Labour representation Committee and the Green Left to debate the way forward for the left.

This is a very wekcome initiative from the leadership of the Socialist Party

http://socialistunity.com/

 

[Brainaddict]

 

[The Black Hand]

I just read this on Socialist Unity, this open pluralist approach inviting all to give their views on a new Workers Party has to be seen as a positive thing. and is precisely the way the left can get out its present dire state. I'm not sure i would join one after my experiences with the Socialist Alliance and the SWP, but full marks to them...

There is a campaign for a new Marxist party too;

http://www.marxistparty.org/index.html

 

[Das Uberdog]

There are too many.

 

[treelover]

I think in this case, the process, the debate, discussions, etc are just as important as the end result,

 

[gorski]

That is always the case!

 

[chilango]

I think in this case, the process, the debate, discussions, etc are just as important as the end result,

True.

But the debate will be framed with the premise that a "new workers party" is a good thing, no?

Hopefully the debate will start by investigating a) what we mean by "worker" and whether this is the most useful concept to using these days and b) what we mean by party, and what we intend to use it for...

Otherwise, as many here will point out, its the same old same old...

 

[Nigel]

Another Load Of Trottery

I think that this is a bit harsh. The SP argues that CNWP should be federative and democratic.

The main problem in my opinion, is that similar dynamics which have failed don't just go away, they linger on and dissipate over a long time period:
The Socialist Labour Party still apparentely has 2000 members, which I can believe.
Socialist Alliance still exists as Democratic Socialist Alliance
RESPECT is being brought back to life by the ISG, Socialism From Below et al
The SWP have their front Organisation(s) LEFT LIST with the AWL.
The IWCA are on their dieing legs, but I'm sure they will still have a presence in their two strongholds.

You'll have these, plus Labour Left, plus others like News Line (WRP) which still have strong holds in areas like West London.

The way they try and sell CNWP, falls into the same failed level of Trottery as before. For instance, instead of trying to offer support and networks for fundraising etc. for postal workers on their recent dispute, the SP in Oxford just went down to sell CNWP. Asking recently about their position on Anti Fascism, they just said that the politics of the SP through CNWP were all that were needed.

I hope that the CNWP does manifest itself into a credible organisation, but the almost inherent opportunistic nature of Trotskyism will just drag it down to to same level as these previous failures.

 

[dennisr]

The way they try and sell CNWP, falls into the same failed level of Trottery as before. For instance, instead of trying to offer support and networks for fundraising etc. for postal workers on their recent dispute, the SP in Oxford just went down to sell CNWP. Asking recently about their position on Anti Fascism, they just said that the politics of the SP through CNWP were all that were needed.

I hope that the CNWP does manifest itself into a credible organisation, but the almost inherent opportunistic nature of Trotskyism will just drag it down to to same level as these previous failures.

I think you are talking out of your arse - but hey, whats new

I should add - you have been through most left groups, I know for certain the anarchists hold you at arm's length as a bit of a 'want to know too much and blab about it' kind of individual, I think you probably get off on your superficial knowledge. I think 'opportunism' and a lack of seriousness is something you could find closer to home but weirdly do not recognise

 

[Nigel]

I think you are talking out of your arse - but hey, whats new

I should add - you have been through most left groups, I know for certain the anarchists hold you at arm's length as a bit of a want to know too much and blab about it kind of individual, I think you probably get off on your superficial knowledge. I think 'opportunism' and a lack of seriousness is something you could find closer to home but weirdly do not recognise

So is that it, just insulting me then.
I have'nt been involved in Anarchist circles for well over a decade.
From some individuals/elements within the 'Anarchist' movement thats more like projection: pot calling the kettle black.
I have been a member of three left organisations.
Are'nt you going to put up some argument for the CNWP, or just continue some personal slagging match.

 

[brasicritique]

maybe if the words 'workers' and 'marxists' were dropped from such parties they might be more appealing

 

[Jografer]

maybe if the words 'workers' and 'marxists' were dropped from such parties they might be more appealing

... as those involved are rarely either....

 

[Nigel]

maybe if the words 'workers' and 'marxists' were dropped from such parties they might be more appealing

The Campaign For A Marxist Party, from what I've come across are very eccentric organisation, much influenced by the CPGB, calling for one this workers militias to be established.

 

[brasicritique]

workers militias

Maybe they are time travllers who are going to go back and import some vangaurdist russion revolutionary gaurd or somthing

 

[dennisr]

So is that it, just insulting me then.
I have'nt been involved in Anarchist circles for well over a decade.
I have been a member of three left organisations.
Are'nt you going to put up some argument for the CNWP, or just continue some personal slagging match.

if you had raised political points I would have answered them - why do you believe I should engage in a serious fashion with you? you just come out with half-digested and uninformed rubbish? so wat would be the point - entertaining an ejet is not my idea of 'discussion'

The anarchists still made a point of warning me about you when you were claiming some affilitation to the SP. maybe thats becasue they have nowt better to do - but then the same is true of you

 

[dennisr]

The Campaign For A Marxist Party, from what I've come across are very eccentric organisation, much influenced by the CPGB, calling for one this workers militias to be established.

They are idiots

 

[dennisr]

... as those involved are rarely either....

The list of those calling for a new workers party seem to consist of trade unionists. what class would you consider them to be?

 

[Nigel]

if you had raised political points I would have answered them - why do you believe I should engage in a serious fashion with you? you just come out with half-digested and uninformed rubbish? so wat would be the point - entertaining an ejet is not my idea of 'discussion'

The anarchists still made a point of warning me about you when you were claiming some affilitation to the SP. maybe thats becasue they have nowt better to do - but then the same is true of you

I am sympathetic to the CNWP, signed up to it, have made donations towards it, supportive of work done by the SP in Trade Unions.

I am also critical of Trotskyism and other left ideologies based around Bolshervism, and the short term strategy of the SP.

The points of view that I put across in the post you got hostile too are based on first hand personal experience.

 

[nightbreed]

The Socialist Labour Party still apparentely has 2000 members, which I can believe.
.

I find that very hard to believe. I would be surprised if the SLP had 200 members.
I think you might be refereing to the SP itself which I believe have around 2000 members.

(Saying that I think the SPGB probably have about 2000 members as well, 1800 of which are dead!!)

 

[Jean-Luc]

They don't want to form a "new workers party" but to re-form the ancient trade union-based "Labour" party of yore again and repeat that fiasco. I suspect too that the real reason they want a bigger party is so they can infiltrate it and keep up the tricks they did when they were the Militant Tendency.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I think you might be refereing to the SP itself which I believe have around 2000 members.

Even the SWP, the biggest far left organisation, doesn't have this many active members......

In terms of the CNWP my main problem with it is that revolutionaries can't be open revolutionaries.

The reason for this is because all the organisations like the SLP, RESPECT and the CNWP have failed to attract any real forces outside the far left. So much so that in all those organisations the far left dominate despite the fact that they are about 0.0001% of the population. So to attract reformists the revolutionary socialists in it have to act as shadow reformists because a revolutionary manifesto would put them off.

Any real workers part would have to come out of real forces, such as the trade unions. If that was the case then revolutionaries could be open about their politics and vote for them because they would be a small minority and would only win over reformists through class struggle.

I understand the SP argument of putting a marker in the sand but I just don't think it will work. I think the left is better off building united fronts at the moment.

 

[dennisr]

They don't want to form a "new workers party" but to re-form the ancient trade union-based "Labour" party of yore again and repeat that fiasco. I suspect too that the real reason they want a bigger party is so they can infiltrate it and keep up the tricks they did when they were the Militant Tendency.

oh ys, thats us exposed.... its the level of in-depth understanding of 'reality' that faws me to the posters on these boards

 

[dennisr]

I understand the SP argument of putting a marker in the sand but I just don't think it will work. I think the left is better off building united fronts at the moment.

Do you? ... thats nice

 

[Nigel]

I find that very hard to believe. I would be surprised if the SLP had 200 members.
I think you might be refereing to the SP itself which I believe have around 2000 members.

(Saying that I think the SPGB probably have about 2000 members as well, 1800 of which are dead!!)

I don't no.
there are quite a few old tankies around, there are a few branches i know of.
Arthur might take into account members of Lankashire NUM pensions fund all being members, just in case he has to push through another block vote.

Not sure of the relationship of Morning Star supporters group, with the SLP.
You're probably right though, I should imagine some would have re-joined the CPB.

 

[Brainaddict]

<no thank you - FM>

 

[cockneyrebel]

What a disgusting picture!

Do you? ... thats nice

I knew you'd appreciate that viewpoint

As it goes the SP don't disagree with the united front bit, you just think the CNWP is a valid tactic as well. Not something that in any way gets in the way with me working alongside SP members and if you turn out to be right and I'm wrong then all the better!

 

[Brainaddict]

What a disgusting picture!

It was meant to be. Still not quite charred or decomposed enough to represent what some people are still trying to flog into life on this thread though

 

[Nigel]

ed: no!

That is a really horrible picture.

 

[gorski]

Some people have this fascination with death, sphincters, faeces, "still life" and all that...

Enter Prado and go to the Dutch etc.[northern] section and see all the dead shite...

And then see the southerners...

Anal retention and art.

I feel a paper coming.

From a loo-roll...

 

[dennisr]

It was meant to be. Still not quite charred or decomposed enough to represent what some people are still trying to flog into life on this thread though

good point, well made