Sinead O'Connor's letter to Miley Cyrus

[Agent Sparrow]

where was the concern when the take that boys were being filmed wearing arseless chaps etc? but it's ok for young men to muck around and get naked because we don't assume they were talked into it by a record company boss.

Ok, I know I am out of touch with pop music, but does this male nudity/skimpy dress really happen to the same extent and to the same levels as female skimpy dress in pop music? And when it does happen, does it really have the same connotations? Surely one of the issues is that this sort of expectation is such a norm in female pop music, even The Norm. And as highlighted in the jezabel article posted by weepiper a few pages back, female almost nudity is so common in pop it's not shocking anymore. And when it stops being shocking and different, it starts to become what is expectated.

Tbf I had problems with the way Sinead made her point. The general point though, about the expectations of the industry, was an important one to make, just to show there are alternatives out there. Words are quite weak compared to actions though. Are there many young women in pop actually living an alternative ATM?

 

[ChrisD]

Did Sinead and Miley actually write the letters themselves or are they the work of their PR people? I assume that Miley had some help in digging up past indiscretions of Sinead. (Sorry if mentioned before..I haven't read whole thread)

 

[Cheesypoof]

Did Sinead and Miley actually write the letters themselves or are they the work of their PR people? I assume that Miley had some help in digging up past indiscretions of Sinead. (Sorry if mentioned before..I haven't read whole thread)

Sinead O connor definitely wrote it herself - and said so on the Late Late.

 

[Cheesypoof]

Ok, I know I am out of touch with pop music, but does this male nudity/skimpy dress really happen to the same extent and to the same levels as female skimpy dress in pop music?

no, it doesnt.

 

[DotCommunist]

no and the point is that when it does it's just chippendales ho-ho them cheeky lads with their posing pouches stuff whereas when a woman gets the goods out the moral crusaders make out like rome has fallen

 

[Cheesypoof]

no and the point is that when it does it's just chippendales ho-ho them cheeky lads with their posing pouches stuff whereas when a woman gets the goods out the moral crusaders make out like rome has fallen

same with the righteous brigade who defend Miley whooring herself, because she is in control!!!

it doesnt matter if she is or not - personally i dont agree with Sinead that Miley is being manipulated as her act looks slick to me - its still saying shitty things about what women have to do to get on in the world.

 

[spanglechick]

Ok, I know I am out of touch with pop music, but does this male nudity/skimpy dress really happen to the same extent and to the same levels as female skimpy dress in pop music? And when it does happen, does it really have the same connotations? Surely one of the issues is that this sort of expectation is such a norm in female pop music, even The Norm. And as highlighted in the jezabel article posted by weepiper a few pages back, female almost nudity is so common in pop it's not shocking anymore. And when it stops being shocking and different, it starts to become what is expectated.

Tbf I had problems with the way Sinead made her point. The general point though, about the expectations of the industry, was an important one to make, just to show there are alternatives out there. Words are quite weak compared to actions though. Are there many young women in pop actually living an alternative ATM?

The point I was making is, that no one assumes the lads weren't up for it when it does happen, so why has o'connor assumed Cyrus was pressurised to do this. The aesthetic of the nudity and semi nudity here is a long way from the lingerie sauciness the record industry usually favours at any rate.

Why is the default assumption that it wasn't her idea?

 

[8den]

Out of curiousity I watched some of SNL to see what the fuss about Miley Cyrus was about.

Who do I sue for the emotional trauma and time I will never get back?

 

[Cheesypoof]

The aesthetic of the nudity and semi nudity here is a long way from the lingerie sauciness the record industry usually favours at any rate.

what/who you on about?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

The point I was making is, that no one assumes the lads weren't up for it when it does happen, so why has o'connor assumed Cyrus was pressurised to do this. The aesthetic of the nudity and semi nudity here is a long way from the lingerie sauciness the record industry usually favours at any rate.

Why is the default assumption that it wasn't her idea?

That, yes I will definitely grant you. It may well have been Miley's idea, in fact no doubt was. After all, how many of us don't want to be seen as sexy when we're 20? No doubt it's been influenced heavily by her experiences and close society, but the same can be said about any of us.

It goes exactly back to that thing though, about third wave feminism and the difference between individual choice and the impact that makes to society. Of course every woman should have the right to make their own decisions as to how they should dress, from both sides. However, what I think increasingly rarely gets addressed is that our choices never arise in a vacuum, and our choices, particularly if we're in the public eye, help shape trends, and further individual choices. And the discussion about "hang on, doesn't it seem a bit unequal that female objectification happens much more commonly than male objectification" just doesn't get had, or gets written of as "moral crusade" or bat shit old wave feminism, despite all the evidence that sexism remains, and if anything is increasing again.

So no, I don't necessarily agree with the assumption that Miley is exploited victim in this. And I don't necessarily agree with Sinead's personalised stance in the letter. I can, however, see how it's happened, given the current focus on individual "choice" above everything else.

 

[spanglechick]

what/who you on about?

Here, Cyrus has short hair, in the underwear shots she's wearing utilitarian white cotton and when naked she's wearing big workmen's boots. The aesthetic of most young women in pop is more traditionally appealing to the heterosexual male imagery: short skirts, black lace/leather/PVC, long hair, push-up bras, lots of cleavage. I'd say cyrus's nudity isn't as obviously titillating that this. I certainly find the aesthetic presented by britney spears at mire or less the same age as a scantily clad schoolgirl considerably more dubious. As for who? Beyonce, Rhianna, girls aloud...

 

[8den]

Why is the default assumption that it wasn't her idea?

I think the assumption comes from the fact that we've scene this behaviour before. A young singer/actress with a squeaky clean wholesome teenage imagine, becomes a adult, and attempts to reinvent themselves, by engaging in dubious behaviour (copious public drug use in Miley Cyrus' case), riskee performances etc etc...

See Britney, Mary Kate/Ashley etc

 

[DotCommunist]

same with the righteous brigade who defend Miley whooring herself, because she is in control!!!

it doesnt matter if she is or not - personally i dont agree with Sinead that Miley is being manipulated as her act looks slick to me - its still saying shitty things about what women have to do to get on in the world.

cheese, do you not understand that talking in terms of whoredome is not really on?

 

[spanglechick]

That, yes I will definitely grant you. It may well have been Miley's idea, in fact no doubt was. After all, how many of us don't want to be seen as sexy when we're 20? No doubt it's been influenced heavily by her experiences and close society, but the same can be said about any of us.

It goes exactly back to that thing though, about third wave feminism and the difference between individual choice and the impact that makes to society. Of course every woman should have the right to make their own decisions as to how they should dress, from both sides. However, what I think increasingly rarely gets addressed is that our choices never arise in a vacuum, and our choices, particularly if we're in the public eye, help shape trends, and further individual choices. And the discussion about "hang on, doesn't it seem a bit unequal that female objectification happens much more commonly than male objectification" just doesn't get had, or gets written of as "moral crusade" or bat shit old wave feminism, despite all the evidence that sexism remains, and if anything is increasing again.

So no, I don't necessarily agree with the assumption that Miley is exploited victim in this. And I don't necessarily agree with Sinead's personalised stance in the letter. I can, however, see how it's happened, given the current focus on individual "choice" above everything else.

But the problem with that style of feminism is that it comes across as "yes, you have every right to wear what you want, and yes on one level you chose it yourself, but *sigh* that's because you're being subconsciously manipulated and when you are enlightened like we are, you'll realise the error of your ways".

 

[twentythreedom]

All this debate is just avoiding the elephant in the room here, the real reason O'Connor's letter was a disaster: she clearly doesn't know the difference between "its" and "it's". That's far more shameful than taking all your clothes off to make a few quid.

Nail, head etc

 

[spanglechick]

I think the assumption comes from the fact that we've scene this behaviour before. A young singer/actress with a squeaky clean wholesome teenage imagine, becomes a adult, and attempts to reinvent themselves, by engaging in dubious behaviour (copious public drug use in Miley Cyrus' case), riskee performances etc etc...

See Britney, Mary Kate/Ashley etc

but lots of young people do that stuff without being manipulated. Otoh, there are people on similar trajectories who haven't had those problems.

And why single out the sexualised imagery as being the (or even just "a") contributory factor. I'd say giving any teenaged girl who already likes the spotlight and who hasn't had a grounded childhood to give them solid roots, essentially unlimited amounts of both cash and attention is highly likely to end very badly. Who says the sexualised imagery is even an issue? Michael Jackson went off the rails serious-style without it being a skimpy clothes issue. Lindsey Lohan didn't flash her undies in pop videos and still managed to come off the rails spectacularly.

My problem with this outcry is that it seems to be about *other people's* discomfort surrounding a young woman's aggressively sexual imagery.

 

[Cheesypoof]

cheese, do you not understand that talking in terms of whoredome is not really on?

shut up ye auld whoor.

 

[8den]

but lots of young people do that stuff without being manipulated. Otoh, there are people on similar trajectories who haven't had those problems.

And why single out the sexualised imagery as being the (or even just "a") contributory factor. I'd say giving any teenaged girl who already likes the spotlight and who hasn't had a grounded childhood to give them solid roots, essentially unlimited amounts of both cash and attention is highly likely to end very badly. Who says the sexualised imagery is even an issue? Michael Jackson went off the rails serious-style without it being a skimpy clothes issue. Lindsey Lohan didn't flash her undies in pop videos and still managed to come off the rails spectacularly.

My problem with this outcry is that it seems to be about *other people's* discomfort surrounding a young woman's aggressively sexual imagery.

I really couldn't have given a crap except for two reasons
A) I fucking hate the Robin Thicke song she duetted on at the VMAs' it's a piece of misogynistic crap

B) Her laughing at Sinead O'Connor's mental illness was really fucking low

 

[Agent Sparrow]

But the problem with that style of feminism is that it comes across as "yes, you have every right to wear what you want, and yes on one level you chose it yourself, but *sigh* that's because you're being subconsciously manipulated and when you are enlightened like we are, you'll realise the error of your ways".

And so what is the alternative? Say absolutely nothing and (in your own opinion) see female equity take massive steps backwards? I mean, free speech is as much a right as free dress. Though tbf, as I said, I truly do think that people have every right to make their own decisions. What I think is a shame that certain alternative decisions just don't get the coverage or recognition to the norm.

It's been happening for ages though. As women are perceived as becoming more equal financially and professionally, it seems to go hand in hand with shedding clothes in the public eye. I mean, any judgements aside, isn't that actually a really interesting trend that deserves to be analysed?

We're all shaped by society, and our more private societies, and our own experiences. I don't think it's patronising if you recognise it as universal. It's more inviting personal reflection than anything else.

Edited to add: and that point above, in addition to Sinead's language of Miley "prostituting" herself, was what did grate. If you're making a general point, make it a less personalised essay. If you're hoping to invite reflection, then don't do it in a public letter which is obviously likely to cause defensiveness.

 

[Cheesypoof]

some of the responses on this thread are so politically correct - makes me wanna barf!!

 

[spanglechick]

And so what is the alternative? Say absolutely nothing and (in your own opinion) see female equity take massive steps backwards? I mean, feee speech is as much a right as free dress. Though tbf, as I said, I truly do think that people have every right to make their own decisions. What I think is a shame that certain alternative decisions just don't get the coverage or recognition to the norm.

It's been happening for ages. As women are perceived as becoming more equal financially and professionally, it seems to go hand in hand with shedding clothes in the public eye. I mean, any judgements aside, isn't that actually a really interesting trend that deserves to be analysed?

We're all shaped by society, and our more private societies, and our own experiences. I don't think it's patronising if you recognise it as universal. It's more inviting personal reflection than anything else.

but what about the power women can get from sex-positive imagery? this is our context. we cant reset the playing field by imaging that context doesn't exist. women as passive sex objects is weak, but women as strong and sexual beings (however they choose to manifest that) is, i believe, one of the most positive feminist statements.

 

[DotCommunist]

shut up ye auld whoor.

from what scant oral evidence we have after the roman massacred all of p-celt tradition in this side of the water earth-women were not whores but respected as providers to need

Whore is a preparative term, not to say selling sex in a capitalist framework is an act of liberation tho. Simply that whore is an ugly word sis.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

but what about the power women can get from sex-positive imagery? this is our context. we cant reset the playing field by imaging that context doesn't exist. women as passive sex objects is weak, but women as strong and sexual beings (however they choose to manifest that) is, i believe, one of the most positive feminist statements.

I do see what you're getting at, and yes, I think strong, sexually confident images of women are positive, and probably in part map on to increased control of our sexuality through changing mores and birth control. However, why is it that "strong female sexuality" tends to look a bit uniform or cliched, and very much like the old sexism? And personally I see a pair of boots rather than lace knickers as just a surface difference than changing the mould.

Also despite all this strong sexuality around, you still hear of younger women feeling coerced into sex, sometimes with the added pressure that it's not just what is expected from them by their partners, but also what is expected from them as an empowered woman. I've read about some of this happening at feminist parties which are supposed to be all about free sexual expression. Sure, the idea that women can and should be sexual is very beneficial also, but again, it's about visible choices.

But anyway, at this stage we should probably just note what we agree on and agree to disagree on the rest, because certainly I have a pile of work to get through now

 

[D'wards]

some of the responses on this thread are so politically correct - makes me wanna barf!!

Barf? Is this early 90's Minneapolis or something?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

but what about the power women can get from sex-positive imagery? this is our context. we cant reset the playing field by imaging that context doesn't exist. women as passive sex objects is weak, but women as strong and sexual beings (however they choose to manifest that) is, i believe, one of the most positive feminist statements.

http://www.gigwise.com/news/84774/amanda-palmer-pens-open-letter-to-sinead-oconnor-about-miley-cyrus

This is what Amanda Palmer has to say - I'm not hugely familiar with her tbh, beyond her response to the Daily Mail a few months ago, but I think she's someone who strongly takes that sort of line.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

this is our context. we cant reset the playing field by imaging that context doesn't exist.

Actually I will say one thing more. If it were a case of there being as many, or even just an obvious and mainstream sizeable minority of women in these fields who were trying to break context, then I wouldn't have an issue with any of this. Are there though? And when will there be?

 

[smmudge]

are ye fuckin serious???

Deadly srs. Oh, alright then.....

It goes exactly back to that thing though, about third wave feminism and the difference between individual choice and the impact that makes to society. Of course every woman should have the right to make their own decisions as to how they should dress, from both sides. However, what I think increasingly rarely gets addressed is that our choices never arise in a vacuum, and our choices, particularly if we're in the public eye, help shape trends, and further individual choices. And the discussion about "hang on, doesn't it seem a bit unequal that female objectification happens much more commonly than male objectification" just doesn't get had, or gets written of as "moral crusade" or bat shit old wave feminism, despite all the evidence that sexism remains, and if anything is increasing again.

I agree with this. It seems there's this notion that since women have been liberated, women stripping off in the public eye is all about sexual freedom and self-expression, and to say otherwise makes you a prude or a feminazi. Now maybe Miley Cyrus feels empowered doing what she does, it might well be the way she wants to perform her sexuality and that's great for her, but it's not all about Miley Cyrus. It's about this tricky notion of 'femininity' and, granted, while some aspects of her image go against the preconceived ideal of feminine beauty, many, many more of them don't. When I look at her video and wonder, is this empowering women or objectifying them? I have to lean on the objectifying side. And also kind of gross, because she's licking a sledgehammer and she doesn't know where that's been.

But it's definitely very tricky. The postcolonialists say that mimicry is the best way to show up the contradictions and ambivalence of oppressive discourse. Maybe this is a case of that?

 

[Glitter]

same with the righteous brigade who defend Miley whooring herself, because she is in control!!!

it doesnt matter if she is or not - personally i dont agree with Sinead that Miley is being manipulated as her act looks slick to me - its still saying shitty things about what women have to do to get on in the world.

Language like this is far more damaging to women than a young woman prancing around in her scanties.

 

[killer b]

some of the responses on this thread are so politically correct - makes me wanna barf!!

Where?

 

[Cheesypoof]

Where?

the sociology lectures from Ms spangles and Agent Sparrow.....

can folks lay off the academic lingo like? this aint an essay....