Shane Meadows latest film This Is England

[llantwit]

I went to see Schindler's List in Bangalore... the Indian audience all laughed every time someone Jewish was killed

D'you know I'm glad you said that. I had a similar experience watching Alexander in Trivandrum - the bits of violence that weren't censored out were greeted with hoots of laughter that seemed utterly innapprpriate. I think what you saw might not ave been anti-semitism, but a wierd cultural difference that means Indian cinema audiences laugh at graphic violence. I'm gonna try and google this, now.
Or maybe I'll just start a thread about it.

 

[Wilf]

Some of it is funny though, like when the BoSelecta bloke takes a shit

oh, yes, agreed. Much of the film - particularly the first half was touching and even laugh out loud. However i was in a cinema (in Middlesbrough) where a few groups were laughing along with the racist rants and even the attack on the shopkeeper.

 

[zenie]

In fairness the friend I was sat with wen 'Ha!' when Sean called the shopkeeper a paki, not bvecause it was funny but in shock at what he heard ocme out of a childs mouth. i think people laugh, not because it's funny but because it's shocking.

He said he felt a few faces look at him in The Ritzy too!!

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

We finally managed to see the whole film last night. Thought it was a good, not great film. Some sterling perfomances from the cast, quite believeable characters and a story that was quite engaging, although at times, stretching credibility somewhat. I found it hard to accept Shawn going over to Combo from Woody, just because of the little Falklands speech - felt too much like a plot device simply inserted to move the story on, especially as Woody had even been given the seal of approval by ma just previously. And ma being oblivious to the presence of a psychopath in her son's life subsequently kept nagging away a bit as well.

Thomas Turgoose was great but Combo's character was even better imo - i lived next door to someone who was virtually identical to him when i first moved to London, and it was frightening how well Meadows captured the nature of someone so unhinged. I liked the way that aspects and facets of each character were drawn out in subtle ways and i thought the way that they fitted together was cleverly done. The ending was expected in many ways but no less explosive for all that. Good stuff, well worth a watch.

 

[foo]

i'm finally going to see this on friday.

 

[onenameshelley]

In fairness the friend I was sat with wen 'Ha!' when Sean called the shopkeeper a paki, not bvecause it was funny but in shock at what he heard ocme out of a childs mouth. i think people laugh, not because it's funny but because it's shocking.

He said he felt a few faces look at him in The Ritzy too!!

yeah i can see what you mean, its like when a small kid swears, its funny because its so inappropriate and its the shock that makes you laugh.

I am not remotely surprised he got given looks in the ritzy though it can be that sort of place Home made cake with your fanta anyone

 

[The_Reverend_M]

In fairness the friend I was sat with wen 'Ha!' when Sean called the shopkeeper a paki, not bvecause it was funny but in shock at what he heard ocme out of a childs mouth. i think people laugh, not because it's funny but because it's shocking.

Exactly, you laugh in disbelief at what you've just heard.

Finally got to see this last night and loved it - think everything that can be said pretty much has been over the last seven pages!

 

[raggamuffin]

I could barely sit through the whole thing. I felt unbelievably claustrophobic, tense and uncomfortable as soon as Combo steped into the sceen.

Combo reminded me so much of the bullies I knew when I was young, setting up excuses to start fights and just the whole personality. One of the best films I've seen in a long time but I certainly didn't enjoy it.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I could barely sit through the whole thing. I felt unbelievably claustrophobic, tense and uncomfortable as soon as Combo steped into the sceen.

Combo reminded me so much of the bullies I knew when I was young, setting up excuses to start fights and just the whole personality. One of the best films I've seen in a long time but I certainly didn't enjoy it.

Quite. Great film - everybody left in silent shock at the end. Probably not the best of films to do on a date - although she really enjoyed it!

Fantastic characters - fantastic acting.

Surely this will become one of the all time greats of British cinema

 

[Gramsci]

I am not remotely surprised he got given looks in the ritzy though it can be that sort of place Home made cake with your fanta anyone

Stopped doing home made cakes years ago when the original Ritzy closed for the redevelopment.Used to be this nice lady who made them every week for the Ritzy.

I dont drink Fanta that Nazi beverage .

 

[corporate whore]

false expectations

Saw this film on Saturday night at the Curzon Soho - the achingly long bus ride home gave me ample time to ponder.

A lot of the reviews I had read - and I'd avoided this thread! - got me expecting a politically driven film, dealing with nationalism and alienation to the backdrop of a shit war, with all the parrallels one can draw with today.

The montage at the start - riots, Falklands, Thatcher - heightened those expectations, but it was clearly a personal story, about Sean's personal experiences, his acceptance into a group and his search for a father figure that led him to Woody then Combo. So the scene-setting at the start kinda jarred. What was the point? Why make such a definitive statement when the film's story is so very local?

Think I need to see it again with that in mind. Perhaps I'll get more out of it watching it for what it is, rather tan what I expeced it to be.

Also, I share various posters' annoyance that Combo turned out to be nothing more than an emotionally stunted fuck up. The frightening fascists were wearing suits and driving Jaguars.

Quality clobber, mind. Milky's Crombie/hat number was particularly pleasing..

 

[Dubversion]

So the scene-setting at the start kinda jarred. What was the point? Why make such a definitive statement when the film's story is so very local?

quite obviously to give a context both for Sean's loss and the drift to nationalsim that was going on against the backdrop of the Falklands. The Falklands war was a key theme throughout - from Sean's story to Combo's speeches.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I don't know why but I have absolutely no desire to go and see this film. Maybe I'll watch it on DVD at some point in the future. Maybe it's something weird about me and the Eighties.

 

[corporate whore]

quite obviously to give a context both for Sean's loss and the drift to nationalsim that was going on against the backdrop of the Falklands. The Falklands war was a key theme throughout - from Sean's story to Combo's speeches.

Well yeah, but I saw that as making a statement: This is going to be a political film, with a message as relevant now as it was then. Meadows' insistence this should have a certificate that allowed a younger age group to see the film also led me to believe this to be the case.

For me, the film failed to deliver on that level. But, as I say, I'll see it again and enjoy it for what it is rather than what I thought it was going to be.

 

[Dubversion]

i didn't get any sense it was proposing an explicitly political statement in its opening minutes, more providing a context. And Meadows wanted kids to see it because of issues around race and stuff, not about the Falklands, Thatcher etc.

I think you've picked up on an intention that wasn't there and have found it wanting on that basis.

 

[corporate whore]

Possibly so. I reserve the right to be mildly disappointed.

 

[Dubversion]

just seems odd to me - not having a pop, honestly - to decide in error that the film has a message / theme and then being disappointed the message / theme isn't explored

 

[corporate whore]

No pop taken.

I didn't "decide" the film had a message, I was led to believe it did by what I'd read/heard in advance and the powerful opening montage only reinforced that belief.

From then on I was expecting the film to develop in that way and I only began to realise it wouldn't when Combo had his 'two minutes' with Woody's girlfriend.

Maybe I should stop reading so much.

There was plenty I did like - the characters, as ever with a Meadows flick, were superbly drawn and extremely well acted, particularly the little fella who played Sean.
The look was great as well, from the clothes they wore and the cars they drove to the 'Maggie is a Twat' graffiti on the church. The scene where Milky goes round to Combo's place was extraordinarily intense - I was in dread, waiting for it all to kick off.

 

[Part 2]

Tbh I thought a lot was made of the montage by almost every review I read.

Especially Roland Rat for some reason

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Well, RD Jr loved the montage

 

[spanglechick]

we saw this yeaterday, and while - on the whole - it was brilliant. so refreshing to see really good acting from an ensemble... - i share reservations, similar to gaijingirl's.

I'd actually read no reviews at all, so apart from seeing a trailer and knowing public opinion was good, i didn't have much preconception.

I thought it dealt with some interesting stuff - the schism in the skinhead 'movement', as some became so inextricably involved in white supremacy. all this told through the context of sean's needing a father figure.

but in the end, it just seemed a bit of a cop out. the only skinhead who didn't see the error of his ways was mentally and emotionally dysfunctional / damaged (or, arguably, gadget - but he wasn't the full quid). It wouldn't have taken away from any of the human elements of the story if the brightish, angry lad who initially joined with compo (vomit?) stayed with the NF cause.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I finally saw this last night on DVD and to be honest I was very dissappointed.

Lots of it came accross like a particulalry crap piece of Theatre in Education.

So much of it didn't ring true - from Woodys touchy feely, mulit cultural sunshine skinheads talking freely about their feelings with each other to the wierd inconsistancy of the accents.

The depiction of the far right in the film was just wrong. The fash skins of the times marched around festooned with swastikers and sige hieling - they freely ranted about pakis and commies and singing genocidal ditties about what should be done to sort them out.

No way would they have been reticicent about using the word 'paki' (as Combo is in his early encoutner with the gang) - it was (and still is) common parlance in white working class areas. The sort of speeches depicted at the NF meeting were heard on the streets every day - from mouths of tory MPs. The NF were pretty much openly Nazi. Casusal rascism was widepsread and only just starting to be challenged - people like Jim Davidson were doing their 'chalky' routines on national TV. Their were anti-fash skinheads - but these were highly politicised - not like woodys lot.

A black skinhead would have been very usual - by the early 80s skinheads were strongly associated with football violence and far right politics.

The poiltical, socail backdrop - lazily established in the opening sequences - was then pretty much dithched. There was a passing reference to mass unemplyment and a picture of a few towerblocks and - apart from the falklands references - that was it. The characters seemed to operate in a vacumm apart from Combos rants.Their was no argument or debate between the charcters about racism, immigration, thatcher and unemployment.

The whole thing looked like it was an extended improvised piece - which meant a focus on interpersonal relationships - so yes you had some nice performances and moments (like the scenes with Sean and Smell) but also a lot of emo-babble which was totally inconsistant with how young working class people of the time would have communicated (certainly in the gang context). It also meant that the cast would be relyiing on there own understanding of the politics of the time and of the far right in particular - as a result it was all well off the mark (like the far right opposing the falklands war?!? ).

Combo ends up as a random psycho - his behavour explained though nods at his troubled emotional background - becasue obviously anyone who is racist and invovled in the far right must be either stupid or mad.

Also it pissed me off that we seemeed to get 'sad' piano tinlking everytime something racist happened.

The period and the politics all ended up been totally superflous and what was left was a film about the emotional interplay between a bunch of friends with some nice performances and some very clunky message about racism thrown in.

Very very dissapointing - especially after all the bigging up here and in the press.

See 'Made in Britain' for a far, far better treatment of the same subject.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Sorry you didn't like it KT

 

[Dubversion]

I finally saw this last night on DVD and to be honest I was very dissappointed.

Lots of it came accross like a particulalry crap piece of Theatre in Education.

So much of it didn't ring true - from Woodys touchy feely, mulit cultural sunshine skinheads talking freely about their feelings with each other to the wierd inconsistancy of the accents.

The depiction of the far right in the film was just wrong. The fash skins of the times marched around festooned with swastikers and sige hieling - they freely ranted about pakis and commies and singing genocidal ditties about what should be done to sort them out.

No way would they have been reticicent about using the word 'paki' (as Combo is in his early encoutner with the gang) - it was (and still is) common parlance in white working class areas. The sort of speeches depicted at the NF meeting were heard on the streets every day - from mouths of tory MPs. The NF were pretty much openly Nazi. Casusal rascism was widepsread and only just starting to be challenged - people like Jim Davidson were doing their 'chalky' routines on national TV. Their were anti-fash skinheads - but these were highly politicised - not like woodys lot.

A black skinhead would have been very usual - by the early 80s skinheads were strongly associated with football violence and far right politics.

The poiltical, socail backdrop - lazily established in the opening sequences - was then pretty much dithched. There was a passing reference to mass unemplyment and a picture of a few towerblocks and - apart from the falklands references - that was it. The characters seemed to operate in a vacumm apart from Combos rants.Their was no argument or debate between the charcters about racism, immigration, thatcher and unemployment.

The whole thing looked like it was an extended improvised piece - which meant a focus on interpersonal relationships - so yes you had some nice performances and moments (like the scenes with Sean and Smell) but also a lot of emo-babble which was totally inconsistant with how young working class people of the time would have communicated (certainly in the gang context). It also meant that the cast would be relyiing on there own understanding of the politics of the time and of the far right in particular - as a result it was all well off the mark (like the far right opposing the falklands war?!? ).

Combo ends up as a random psycho - his behavour explained though nods at his troubled emotional background - becasue obviously anyone who is racist and invovled in the far right must be either stupid or mad.

Also it pissed me off that we seemeed to get 'sad' piano tinlking everytime something racist happened.

The period and the politics all ended up been totally superflous and what was left was a film about the emotional interplay between a bunch of friends with some nice performances and some very clunky message about racism thrown in.

Very very dissapointing - especially after all the bigging up here and in the press.

See 'Made in Britain' for a far, far better treatment of the same subject.

sorry, i think you're wrong on pretty much every count. I'll come back to this but some of your criticisms are lazy bollocks. Weirdly inconsistent accents - wtf? That's their real accents, nothing being put on.

Haven't got time now, but i honestly think that while there are probably are some valid criticisms of the movie, yours are way off mark - very glib generalisations about the period. Just cos the characters don't fit your stereotypes of the period, doesn't mean they're wrong. And - by the way - it's a movie, not a documentary..

Combo was ONE racist skinhead. That was his take on things - Meadows isn't for a moment suggesting he was the norm.. I think you're criticising it for not doing something that it never intended to anyway

 

[Kaka Tim]

.

. Just cos the characters don't fit your stereotypes of the period, doesn't mean they're wrong. And - by the way - it's a movie, not a documentary..

Combo was ONE racist skinhead. That was his take on things - Meadows isn't for a moment suggesting he was the norm.. I think you're criticising it for not doing something that it never intended to anyway

They're not stereotypes - Im old enough to remeber the period very well. I knew plenty of skinheads, I was into the rude boy stuff myself. Not all skinheads were fash, but casual racism was pretty much the norm unless you were talking about the less numerous dedicated anti-facist skins. Terms like 'paki' and 'wog' were everyday parlance - the exception would not be someone using such terms - it was someone objecting to it.

And the depiciton of the far right is just way off the reality - which Im pretty supriesed about seeing as meadows is old enough to remeber and was - I understood - into the music and skin/rudeboy seen.

In the film Combo was depicted as some sort of abberation - rather than a particualrly extreme version of pretty common attitudes at the time.
As a result the period setting was almost entirely superflous - just a vehicle to hang some farily clunky psychodrama on. Rather than what the film seemed to be trying to be.

A far more interesting film would be if Woody had been the one with the rascist views/far right views - i.e a sympathetic charcter with an abhorent ideology.

 

[Dubversion]

i also remember the period very well and knew lots of skins. Many fitted your stereotype, some didn't, and some actively opposed it.

What you don't seem to appreciate is that the story in the movie is pretty much based on Meadows' own real experiences at that time (dunno if you noticed that the kid is called Sean Fields) - specific incidents and characters he encountered, including one very horrible act of violence - so you can bang on as much as you want about it not being realistic, but he's telling his story, not seeking to offer a definitive docu-dramatic account of skinheads, the far right or Thatcher's Britain.

 

[tommers]

I saw it recently too. I was also a bit disappointed. Not when i watched it - then I thought it was pretty decent but afterwards when i had time to digest it. It just all felt a bit rushed. One minute sean is with woody. One slightly dodgy speech later he's ditched woody and gone off with combo. Woody then basically doesn't appear in the film again. He has a couple of cameos and that's about it. It's like there's two separate films.

And what the fuck was going on with Sean and smell? That just seemed really really odd.

But still, when I watched it I liked it. It was only once I explained what happened in it to other people that I started thinking it was all a bit disjointed and heavy handed.

 

[Dubversion]

I saw it recently too. I was also a bit disappointed. Not when i watched it - then I thought it was pretty decent but afterwards when i had time to digest it. It just all felt a bit rushed. One minute sean is with woody. One slightly dodgy speech later he's ditched woody and gone off with combo. Woody then basically doesn't appear in the film again. He has a couple of cameos and that's about it. It's like there's two separate films.

i thought that was a brave bit of film-making. To introduce a character as charismatic and likeable as Woody (and Lol et al) and then dispense with them because of the narrative arc...

 

[tommers]

i thought that was a brave bit of film-making. To introduce a character as charismatic and likeable as Woody (and Lol et al) and then dispense with them because of the narrative arc...

welllll.... I suppose you could see it that way....

Maybe I just built it up too much in my mind. I thought it was going to be the best film I had ever seen... 80s, skinheads, bit of reggae... what more did it need? And it was pretty good. You know, I liked it and everything, but it just wasn't as good as I thought it would be.

 

[The Boy]

i thought that was a brave bit of film-making. To introduce a character as charismatic and likeable as Woody (and Lol et al) and then dispense with them because of the narrative arc...

Agreed. I've not read any interviews with Meadows, but I got the impression it was a very deliberate move - the boy in the film would have missed his old mate and we experience that seem thing when Woody becomes a minor character .