Shane Meadows latest film This Is England

[Maurice Picarda]

The Falklands war was a key theme throughout - from Sean's story to Combo's speeches.

Which was odd. Because however important the loss of his dad was to Sean, Meadows treated the Falklands conflict more widely as an ultra-significant and brutalising experience for the British national character.

Which, IIRC, it wasn't. Although I wasn't that old at the time.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

And what the fuck was going on with Sean and smell? That just seemed really really odd.

Yes, but the actress who played her was only like two years older than the one who played Sean. I thought those scenes actually demonstrated quite well the huge gap in maturity between boys and girls when we're in our teens.

 

[Dubversion]

Which, IIRC, it wasn't. Although I wasn't that old at the time.

but it was, it really was. I got into a fight at school when I spoke out agains the war and some kid who's dad was out there thought I was dissing his father - there were lots of instances of that kind of social conflict. The war had a huge impact in lots of ways..

 

[Kaka Tim]

i also remember the period very well and knew lots of skins. Many fitted your stereotype, some didn't, and some actively opposed it.

What you don't seem to appreciate is that the story in the movie is pretty much based on Meadows' own real experiences at that time (dunno if you noticed that the kid is called Sean Fields) - specific incidents and characters he encountered, including one very horrible act of violence - so you can bang on as much as you want about it not being realistic, but he's telling his story, not seeking to offer a definitive docu-dramatic account of skinheads, the far right or Thatcher's Britain.

What sterotype? I know not all skins were fash, some were actively anti-fash, some were apolitical but many still induging in casual racism.

What I found hard to take was the just how gentle and kind woodys gang were - since when were teenage gangs so in touch with their feelings and undestadning of others?

What was being depicted was some sort of stange world where then only racist was the unhinged violent loon instead of it being a common attitude and far more commonly expressed than it is now - It was like an episode of grange hill.

Also the depection of the far right was totally inaccurate.

you say its SM's film about his own experiecnes rather than a dram doc - but by calling it 'This is england' and having an openign montage placing squarly in the early 80s he seemed to be trying to deliver a piece of social realism/commentary.

As it was the whole Skinhead thing, and the period it was set in, was almost entirly superflous. It could have been set anywhere. It looked liked a drama impro with young people with no real wider social context other than they were wearing the fashions of the time and you had a few shots of tower blocks to presumably suggest 'run down urban area'.

The inconsistent accents - Woody sounded like he was from Burnley, Combo sounded scouse, the asian shopkeeper sounded RP, woodys girlfreind sounded like she was south-est trying to do northern - it all jsut added to the lack of attention to detail.

I really liked 24/7 and i really wanted to like this - but there you go.

Have you seen Made in Britain dub?

 

[Kaka Tim]

but it was, it really was. I got into a fight at school when I spoke out agains the war and some kid who's dad was out there thought I was dissing his father - there were lots of instances of that kind of social conflict. The war had a huge impact in lots of ways..

I agree with you on this though.

 

[Dubversion]

What was being depicted was some sort of stange world where then only racist was the unhinged violent loon instead of it being a common attitude and far more commonly expressed than it is now - It was like an episode of grange hill.

Well that's nonsense for a start - Combo isn't the only racist in the film, by any means. He's just the one that impacts on the group

Also the depection of the far right was totally inaccurate.

you think? in what way? although this film isn't supposed to be a 'depiction of the far right', the Frank Harper character and those scenes seemed to be pretty much as i expected..

you say its SM's film about his own experiecnes rather than a dram doc - but by calling it 'This is england' and having an openign montage placing squarly in the early 80s he seemed to be trying to deliver a piece of social realism/commentary.

Do you think? i thought he was just giving it a context, i wasn't expecting a history lesson or some all-embracing exposition on Thatcher's Britain. I was expecting what Meadows always delivers - human stories on a small scale.

As it was the whole Skinhead thing, and the period it was set in, was almost entirly superflous. It could have been set anywhere. It looked liked a drama impro with young people with no real wider social context other than they were wearing the fashions of the time and you had a few shots of tower blocks to presumably suggest 'run down urban area'.

again, i don't see your point / the problem. Meadows was providing a slightly fictionalised account of a specific chain of event in his life. Surely it's 'anywhereness' serves to make it more accessible? i'm from the opposite end of the country but it felt exactly like that year did for me (i was the Shaun character's age, give or take, at that point).

The inconsistent accents - Woody sounded like he was from Burnley, Combo sounded scouse, the asian shopkeeper sounded RP, woodys girlfreind sounded like she was south-est trying to do northern - it all jsut added to the lack of attention to detail.

so in your world nobody moves? Woody's girlfriend is from that part of the country, that's her own accent. Maybe Woody was from Burnley? fuck knows - that's a weird criticism. it's not Eddie Izzard doing hillbilly in the Riches, is it?

As for your comment re: it seeming impro-ed. That's one of the film's - and Meadows' - strengths, IMO. Those kids seemed like they really were a gang, the banter and conversation was totally convincing, totally natural, the way the scenes were set up (the Milky and Combo scene took hours of really intense improvised work) was so realistic it made the film that much more compelling.

I really liked 24/7 and i really wanted to like this - but there you go.

Have you seen Made in Britain dub?

Yeh, and it's a great film. It's also a very different film so i don't see why liking one would lead to criticising the other.

I think - still - you're criticising the film for not delivering on a promise it never made. You've watched it expecting it to be a certain type of film and you're criticising it on that basis.

I wasn't expecting a polemic, or a docu-drama, i was expecting a story about one young guy's experiences. And that's what I got.

 

[sam/phallocrat]

I reckon it was set in the East Riding somewhere.

(Oviosuly it wasn't actually set anywhere, but that's my guess)

 

[Loupylou]

What sterotype? I know not all skins were fash, some were actively anti-fash, some were apolitical but many still induging in casual racism.

What I found hard to take was the just how gentle and kind woodys gang were - since when were teenage gangs so in touch with their feelings and undestadning of others?

What was being depicted was some sort of stange world where then only racist was the unhinged violent loon instead of it being a common attitude and far more commonly expressed than it is now - It was like an episode of grange hill.

that was my thoughts exactly on seeing the film. Where i was brought up (North Kent) there were loads of skinheads & it was a (very successful) recruiting ground for the NF due to the large Asian population.
I didn't know any bloke who was caring/sharing like that with male friends- that part of the film made me squirm (even tho it was very sweet). The skinheads of the 80s were not the same as the earlier period in the 70s, they were racist just like most other people, apart from a few areas where there were exceptions (Brixton? i.e where the white skinheads couldn't have the upper hand). They were hypocrites who liked black music, even had black friends but would spout racism including in front of those friends. The idea of Woody being the leader of a skinhead gang is a joke.
I was intriguiged before I saw the film how it was going to deal with the very common casual racisim of the time, & this is how it dealt with it, by minimising it with the most of the main characters being very sympathetic and anti-racist and lovey-dovey.

But, I can understand the film maker's need to do that, it would have looked like, or been accused of being, a film glorifying racism & would have been unacceptable for our society as it is now.

 

[Loupylou]

The inconsistent accents - Woody sounded like he was from Burnley, Combo sounded scouse, the asian shopkeeper sounded RP, woodys girlfreind sounded like she was south-est trying to do northern - it all jsut added to the lack of attention to detail.

i agree with this as well - things like this really annoy me. I didn't notice the different accents cos I'm a southerner, but I do think, if you're going to make a film which is so clearly meant to be set in a certain area (no matter how universal the subject), get it right.

There was a film made about 10 years ago, can't remember the name, set against the backdrop of 80s Glasgow gangs. I went to see it with Glaswegians, who were very pissed off that they'd decided to change the location of those gangs whose names they'd kept, to different sides of the Clyde, which is very weird considering the whole point of the gang is the territory it covers and the massive rivalry between North & South side.
And also the main character (again, a young boy) had a posh Scottish accent even tho he was meant to be working class (even I picked up on that).
Cue lots of loud pisstaking from said weegies and getting slung out of the cinema !
Especially if you area from the area they are setting the film in, it really detracts from your enjoyment of the film and ability ot get into it cos it's fucking annoying and grates.

 

[Loupylou]

i also remember the period very well and knew lots of skins. Many fitted your stereotype, some didn't, and some actively opposed it.

What you don't seem to appreciate is that the story in the movie is pretty much based on Meadows' own real experiences at that time (dunno if you noticed that the kid is called Sean Fields) - specific incidents and characters he encountered, including one very horrible act of violence - so you can bang on as much as you want about it not being realistic, but he's telling his story, not seeking to offer a definitive docu-dramatic account of skinheads, the far right or Thatcher's Britain.

Yes I can see your point as well, but he did bring in the whole skinhead thing into it and also, there's been very few films with this culture in it so people were expecting more realism if you're going to portray it as real.

 

[Loupylou]

Yes, but the actress who played her was only like two years older than the one who played Sean. I thought those scenes actually demonstrated quite well the huge gap in maturity between boys and girls when we're in our teens.

So maturity-wise she is about 5 years older and she's a young woman and he's a little pipsqueak.

So she wouldn't have been getting off with a little boy.
(I thought the main actor altho alright at acting was badly cast for that reason).

Along with the lovey-dovey blokes, this also made me squirm.

 

[Part 2]

When I was 11 my mate and I used to meet 2 girls who were in the 5th year at the time.

I'd say our own experiences were very much like Shaun's, bit of a grope, big sloppy frenchies and giving us hard ons.

There was nowt wrong with it

 

[mhwfc]

I reckon it was set in the East Riding somewhere.

(Oviosuly it wasn't actually set anywhere, but that's my guess)

It's set in Nottingham I'd have thought, it was filmed in Lenton apart from the closing scene which was in Grimsby, and Shane Meadows is from Nottingham and it's based on his adolescent experiences.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Well that's nonsense for a start - Combo isn't the only racist in the film, by any means. He's just the one that impacts on the group

Well yes you have the other fash - but they are perifaral characters and that still doesn't detract from my point that the only people with rascit attitudes are the violent freaks of the NF.

you think? in what way? although this film isn't supposed to be a 'depiction of the far right', the Frank Harper character and those scenes seemed to be pretty much as i expected..

They were more like the present day BNP - the NF then were pretty much openly neo-nazi - you'd have had a room full of skinheads sieg-hieling. They also didn't oppose the falklands war and would have had a far more coherent argument than what was put accross by combo. Its like we're not allowed to see why facism has an appeal or that they were (and still are) tapping into widely held fears, prejudices and concners - depicting as isolated loons is an insult to the intelligence of the audience.

Do you think? i thought he was just giving it a context, i wasn't expecting a history lesson or some all-embracing exposition on Thatcher's Britain. I was expecting what Meadows always delivers - human stories on a small scale.

But if you setting that context iy needs to serve more of a purpose than set dressing. The whole alienated youth and the attempts of the far right to expliot that only makes sense in the context of mass unemployment and the thatchers deveastration of industrial britian. Otherwise its just set dressing. Billy Elliot is simialrly flawed on this front. TBH it would have a much better film without the context.

compare with trainspotting - firmly and convincinly set in the 80s dole and drug culture yet definitely not a trot polemic.

so in your world nobody moves? Woody's girlfriend is from that part of the country, that's her own accent. Maybe Woody was from Burnley? fuck knows - that's a weird criticism. it's not Eddie Izzard doing hillbilly in the Riches, is it?

I think your making excuses here. If its supposed to be some urban working class area than you'd expect homogenous accents. Someone with a different accent would not be that unusual - but it would be remarked upon. Its just seemed a bit lazy on the part of the film-maker.

As for your comment re: it seeming impro-ed. That's one of the film's - and Meadows' - strengths, IMO. Those kids seemed like they really were a gang, the banter and conversation was totally convincing, totally natural, the way the scenes were set up (the Milky and Combo scene took hours of really intense improvised work) was so realistic it made the film that much more compelling.

Its a technique which is great when it works - i.e. the scenes between Sean and Smell or the stuff about flairs (which was historically spot on as well! ).
However some of it didn't - like the touchy feely stuff between the gang members- and looked to me like poor youth drama impro.

Yes, the scene with milky and combo was convincingly performed - but it pissed me off as well - it was all about combo building up for his big violent outburst - explaining away his racism and violence as a result of his 'issues', rather than as a product of the social context he was living in - thus taking the politics out of the film and making it unchallenging and far more 'safe' for its audience (ditto the pussyfooting around the racist language) . Your essentailly told what to think and feel throughout the film - something that I can handle in me hollywood fluff but its not the mark of supposedly challenging and hard hitting drama.

Yeh, and it's a great film. It's also a very different film so i don't see why liking one would lead to criticising the other.

I think - still - you're criticising the film for not delivering on a promise it never made. You've watched it expecting it to be a certain type of film and you're criticising it on that basis.

I wasn't expecting a polemic, or a docu-drama, i was expecting a story about one young guy's experiences. And that's what I got.

Like I said it wasn't set up (or promoted) as that - from the title, to the poster to the opening montage.

 

[Dubversion]

i still completely disagree. ah well

 

[Kaka Tim]

And there wasn't nearly enough ska.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I don't get why people criticise the accents thing. The UK is a titchy country, which (as far as I know) has no laws (unlike China) requiring people to live in certain areas. Yet even in China, we meet Chinese people who originate all over China, that's despite it's restrictive laws. Expecting the people in one area to have one accent exclusively is just stupid IMO. As dub said, people move!!!!! It isn't illegal! Nor do the government tell people where to live!

 

[Dubversion]

I don't get why people criticise the accents thing. The UK is a titchy country, which (as far as I know) has no laws (unlike China) requiring people to live in certain areas. Yet even in China, we meet Chinese people who originate all over China, that's despite it's restrictive laws. Expecting the people in one area to have one accent exclusively is just stupid IMO. As dub said, people move!!!!! It isn't illegal! Nor do the government tell people where to live!

AND the cast are all speaking in their own accents. And all come from the area, roughly.

It's a bollocks argument, frankly

 

[goldenecitrone]

Which was odd. Because however important the loss of his dad was to Sean, Meadows treated the Falklands conflict more widely as an ultra-significant and brutalising experience for the British national character.

Which, IIRC, it wasn't. Although I wasn't that old at the time.

I remember when the Falklands War was just starting and my best mate's dad was working for BNFL at the time. They were pretty conservative folk and my mate had made a poster of the Argentine flag with a cruise missile in the middle with the slogan 'Trident Now, Nuke the Bastards!' which he put in the back of his dad's car. That was the first time I started to have reservations about the people I was growing up with.

 

[strummerville]

And there wasn't nearly enough ska.

But by the time the film was set, most of the Skins were into Oi by then. Two Tone had pretty much died out and the whole original Ska thing was long gone. I remember going to a Sham gig (not strictly Oi I know) in '81 and it being full of Skins kicking off with Punks everywhere. Scariest gig I've been to.

People forget how fucking aggressive Skins were then, if you were on a tube and a gang ogf them got on, you'd shit yourself. Didn't think the film got that aspect right as they made out it was just Compo and his pals. The whole point about being a Skin in the early 80's was alot about violence.

It seemed to me Meadows made a film more about late '60's Skin culture set in the early 80's. But then again, maybe that was his take from his memories of where he grew up.

 

[chico enrico]

not meaning to be a pedant but i think ur wrong mate. i was at sham 69's last ever gig at glasgow apollo and im pretty sure it was 1979 cos it was before i went to secondary school. could google but cant be bothered. it's late. very sure they'd split before 1981 tho.

yes, there's lots of 'innaccuracies' in the film and i didnt particularly like it but basically what dub is saying is right. it's a 'personal voyage' film with a degree of 'artictic licence' for expediency of narrative so should be simply taken like that and allowances made.

ok?

now...pub time

 

[mhendo]

This is England has FINALLY come out over here. It's on at the local independent cinema house, and i'm off to see it this weekend. Really looking forward to it.

 

[saucisson]

I quite enjoyed it, not the best fillum ever but an intresting personal story. I also enjoyed spotting RAF newton (near where I grew up) where they bust up the old houses....still sitting there and derelict now...interestingly in real life they were going to use the old RAF buildings to house asylum seekers but local pressure (and the more understandable reason that there no appropriate local facilities) made them reconsider.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/3872823.stm

 

[Badgers]

Just got this last week but not seen it yet...

Maybe tonight

 

[girasol]

I've finally managed to see this today, and having forgotten about the hype and what it was about I wasn't quite sure what to expect - I was crying at the end of it. Maybe it's the New Year Blues or something...

...But I think it's the best film I have seen in a long time.

I really don't give two figs about the 'innaccuracy of accents/clothes', it tells a story so well I already want to watch it again.

 

[mozzy]

Phew!! I bumped this thread as I only got round to watching this last night and blinkin heck - what a film!!! I loved it - it was nostagic, harrowin, funny and shocking and also a little disapointing.

I wondered if Compo's psyconess and bittness towards other races was due to the fact he was actually half caste and his father had walked out of him as a child which is why he hated Milky - he was a "happy" Jamacian, whereas Combo was a lonely confused one. I was disapointed that this was not the case, but after readin others posts on this thread, at least I was correct in my judgement that Combo in Rl is from a mixed race backround.

My initial thougts to this film was an acute ashamedness of being white and livin through this hatred (I remember the attitudes some of my elders during my childhood of this time), but I also think Shane Meadows wanted the viewer to understand that that the white workin class and ethnic minorites were all victims of the same sword - Thatchers Capatilism.

I thought the music was excellent and the comedy was brilliant but didn't quite believe the scenes with Shaun and Shell - a bit wierd that!!!! I am guessing this may have been a little childhood fantasy of Meadow's prehaps!!

 

[Orang Utan]

Yeah, Compo was a nutter wasn't he?

 

[mozzy]

Whooops post ammended <cringes>