Royal Veteran/Loughborough Park Tavern on Coldharbour Lane/ Moorlands Rd SW9

[editor]

Try as I might I've never been able to unearth a single photo or decent reference to this pub. It was knocked down with the Moorlands Estate development of the 70s, and appears in maps as far back as 1864.

Note that there's also a Zoar Place next to the pub.

I've managed to track down a picture of the pub sign in 1950, when it was apparently called the Loughborough Park Tavern:

Anyone got anything on this?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

The occupants are listed on 1881 census.

One of their professions is down as "billiard marker"

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Atlantic, Warrior, Prince Albert, Green Man, The Plough (in Kennington) are listed as existing in 1881 census on here, but no Royal Veteran

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hitch/gendocs/pubs.html#R

but I found something earlier, unless that entry belonged to another pub on Coldharbour Lane. This is infuriating. I hate you Ed

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Loughborough 1881 (still can't find my billiard marker)

1881/Edward Dubbins/Licensed Victualler (Manager)/33/St Clements, Middlesex/Census
1881/Ellen Dubbins/Wife/26/Brixton, Surrey/Census
1881/Ellen Dubbins/Daughter/3/Brixton, Surrey/Census
1881/Thomas Lake/Servant (Inn)/17/Marylebone, Middlesex/Census
1881/Mary Shayler/Servant (Inn)/16/Islington, Middlesex/Census
1881/Emma Simmonds/Servant (Inn)/23/Lambeth, Surrey/Census
1881/William Dock/Servant (Inn)/21/London, Middlesex/Census

Source: http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/Camberwell/LoughboroughParkTavern.shtml

 

[editor]

I tried searching for "Zoar Place" SW9 but only came up with.. this thread!

But then I tried "Zoar Place" 'Brixton' and got quite a few results including this Old Bailey Proceedings, 19th September 1870 account:

I saw someone walking up and down at the door, and look in once or twice; that was just after Mrs. Ellis came in—Mrs. Waters said "Who was the man looking down?"and she said "You nasty cat, you have ruined me!"—she said that Mrs. Ellis had done her out of 8l. that night—I have been sent for letters very often; I used to go very nearly every morning, and some-times about four times a week—I used to go to the post office in Zoar Place in Brixton, and Cold Harbour Lane, and also one in the Mostyn Road; that was the nearest—I used to ask for letters addressed to Mrs. Oliver at Zoar Place, and at Cold Harbour Lane I used to ask for Mrs. Furley and Mrs. White—I used to get letters—sometimes four and sometimes six at Zoar Place—we used to get about half-a-dozen letters a day—I don't think I ever got more than half-a-dozen—I used to give them to Mrs. Waters—Mrs. Waters used to read them, tear them up, and burn them after she had done with them—I did not hear her say what they were about.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?path=sessionsPapers/18700919.xml

And...

James Friend, of No. 1, Zoar-place, Cold Harbour-lane,
Brixton, Lambeth, Surrey, Grocer and Cheesemonger,
and Licensed to Sell Tea and Tobacco.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21937/pages/3605/page.pdf

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I tried searching for "Zoar Place" SW9 but only came up with.. this thread!

But then I tried "Zoar Place" 'Brixton' and got quite a few results including this Old Bailey Proceedings, 19th September 1870 account:



And...

Yeah, they're the main two I came up with, along with a listing on a street index site. Ms Waters was sentenced to death!

 

[lang rabbie]

Zoar was one of the Cities of the Plain that was spared when God smote Sodom and Gomorrah!

Zoar, meaning "small" or "insignificance" in Hebrew

Possibly the earliest case of a cartographer's "trap street" gaining a real world existence by people fraudulently citing it as an address?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Zoar was one of the Cities of the Plain that was spared when God smote Sodom and Gomorrah!



Possibly the earliest case of a cartographer's "trap street" gaining a real world existence by people fraudulently citing it as an address?

Well according to the transcripts of that trial, someone was picking up post from the Post Office in Zoar Place

The Post Office must have records?

However, it does seem very strange that there's barely any mention of it, although it is mentioned in a few censuses/census/censii up to 1881 (the earliest being 1851)

 

[editor]

I feel a trip to the Minet Library coming on very soon as this is bugging me now.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I feel a trip to the Minet Library coming on very soon as this is bugging me now.

Excellent, 'cos I refuse to spend any more time on it! Was at it for hours last night.

There's one in Wales though

 

[miss minnie]

British Postal Museum and Archive...


http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/
http://twitter.com/#!/postalheritage

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I'll leave that up to you or Ed

 

[miss minnie]

I wonder if it shows up on this map...

Map of London, 1881, finding number: POST 21/72

Title 'London drawn and engraved expressly for the Post Office Directory'
Date 1881
Description Map Type: District map.
Scale: 7.5 cm : 1 mile.
Geographical Area: London, England.
Medium: Printed.
Cartographer: Not known.
Engraver/Printer: Not known.
Publisher: 'Kelly and Co., Post Office Directory Office, 51 Great Queen Street, London, WC'.
Surveyor: Not known.
Annotation: The map Includes postal district boundaries. District and Sub Offices added in red and blue ink.
Annotation Date: Not known.
Printed notes: The main London stations are included.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I did have a thought last night. How exactly do you know that the Royal Veteran was a pub?

 

[miss minnie]

I wonder if it shows up on this map...

Map of London, 1881, finding number: POST 21/72

Bah, I just viewed the large image and the map goes as far as Southwark. They do say they have more maps though.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

On an entirely different note, I found that the reason the Russell used to have that neon Brady's sign is probably because there was a landlord/owner called Luke Brady (listed in the Post Office Directory in 1938)

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Bah, I just viewed the large image and the map goes as far as Southwark. They do say they have more maps though.

What are those red squares, POs? It doesn't look like there's many of them. Or are they sorting offices?

 

[editor]

I did have a thought last night. How exactly do you know that the Royal Veteran was a pub?

Well, it may not have been, but I can't think what else would be called the "Royal Veteran" and be situated in the exact location where the pub was.

 

[miss minnie]

What are those red squares, POs? It doesn't look like there's many of them. Or are they sorting offices?

...

Annotation: The map Includes postal district boundaries. District and Sub Offices added in red and blue ink.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I refuse to look at any more maps

http://archivemaps.com/mapco/whit1865/whit58.htm

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Well, it may not have been, but I can't think what else would be called the "Royal Veteran" and be situated in the exact location where the pub was.

No doubt you came across loads of members of Royal Veteran Battalions as well. I was wondering if they had homes for old soldiers or something, a bit like Chelsea? Alternatively, some depot or garrison? Or old boys social club or something?

 

[geminisnake]

Not helpful for your enquiries but there's a Zoar Inn in Forfar about 17 miles away from me.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, it may not have been, but I can't think what else would be called the "Royal Veteran" and be situated in the exact location where the pub was.

yeh, it was the loughborough park tavern for years, till well after the fifties. but it's not listed in the *london* postal directories till about 1940 (as the loughborough park tavern). you'll need to go to the archives and have a look at the local directories and documents to find out more about it.

 

[boohoo]

Zoar was one of the Cities of the Plain that was spared when God smote Sodom and Gomorrah!



Possibly the earliest case of a cartographer's "trap street" gaining a real world existence by people fraudulently citing it as an address?

Zoar Place looks like it is the name of the dwelling - so, address would be Zoar Place, Coldharbour lane, sw9... etc...

Also found this pub: Sussex Arms - Sussex Road, Brixton, LAMBETH [1881] - Could this be the pub but a Sussex Road address?

 

[boohoo]

no ... not sussex arms... Back to the drawing board...

 

[Belushi]

Nonconformist Chapels were sometimes called Zoar or Soar.

(In my village in wales we had Soar, Salem and Sion)

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I wonder whether it was some sort of 'old soldiers' club or hall? There was a big hall owned by the Territorial Army* on Minet Road where the scrapyard/Damien Hirst's workshops used to be, I remember an old lady who told me of going to big dinner dances there and I know that as far as clubs and places of entertainment went, there were lots, even if you don't count Music Halls.


* who still have a base on Flodden Rd in Camberwell

 

[boohoo]

A slight derail but another lost pub

This view is feels odd because in the distance you can see the loughborough hotel - you are basically looking at the view from near the kebab shop across the road from Jamm and pretty much everything in the view is now gone.

 

[miss minnie]

Zoar Place looks like it is the name of the dwelling - so, address would be Zoar Place, Coldharbour lane, sw9... etc...

I found it on a couple more maps and it looks like a cul-de-sac behind the large building facing CHL, entry from Sussex Road.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

No doubt you came across loads of members of Royal Veteran Battalions as well. I was wondering if they had homes for old soldiers or something, a bit like Chelsea? Alternatively, some depot or garrison? Or old boys social club or something?

I wonder whether it was some sort of 'old soldiers' club or hall? There was a big hall owned by the Territorial Army* on Minet Road where the scrapyard/Damien Hirst's workshops used to be, I remember an old lady who told me of going to big dinner dances there and I know that as far as clubs and places of entertainment went, there were lots, even if you don't count Music Halls.


* who still have a base on Flodden Rd in Camberwell

I was thinking along the same lines