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RIP Steve Albini

Spandex said:
Steve Albini said and wrote thousands of terrible things over the years as part of his I'm such a transgressive edgelord public persona. Racist, misogynistic, homophobic, generally rude and horrible. And yet I've never read anything from anyone who knew or worked with him suggesting he actually was racist, misogynistic, homophobic or horrible. Rude, certainly, but people who knew him don't seem to think that what he wrote back then actually reflected who he was. Yet these two articles in the Medium, which he wrote 40 years ago in his early 20s, have been taken out of that context, presented at face value and thrown at him now he's dead and can't respond.

They are horrific and I suspect Steve Albini would agree. When they first started circulating on the internet a few years ago, along with other nasty shit he wrote, it prompted him to post this thread on twitter:
Thread by @electricalWSOP on Thread Reader App

He followed up with interviews holding his hands up and expressing regret for some of the things he said, how he had contributed to coarsening society. It was quite widely reported at the time. krtek a houby posted one of the articles on page one of this thread.

Maybe there are some things you can't unsay. Being an edgelord is being a prick, something which Steve Albini seemed to realise later in his life. But the way it's been presented in the hit-piece on Medium to provoke such outrage that people are now refusing to listen to his music doesn't tell the whole story, and as such seems a little unfair.
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A little unfair? What even Michael Jackson was getting up to pales in comparison to this:


It's not a 'hit-piece'. For some reason the spoiler isn't showing but it's the 'spuzz' quote from that article.
 
Petcha said:
A little unfair? What even Michael Jackson was getting up to pales in comparison to this:


It's not a 'hit-piece'. For some reason the spoiler isn't showing but it's the 'spuzz' quote from that article.
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Jackson physically abused children. Lots of them. Repeatedly. To say that that isn't as bad as someone saying they liked CP mags (probably falsely) is grotesque. And exactly the kind of stupidity Albini was attacking.
 
Orang Utan said:
Can’t remember whether it was in the article I posted, or elsewhere, but he stuck by Peter Sotos, enough to call him a very good friend in a recent interview.
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as recently as in a very good 2022 interview (that has been widely quoted recently).

As I said before, I think it is grossly simplistic to simply say Sotos was a straightforward abuser. His work appears (I haven't studied it in any kind of detail) seems to be far more complex than that.
 
belboid said:
Jackson physically abused children. Lots of them. Repeatedly. To say that that isn't as bad as someone saying they liked CP mags (probably falsely) is grotesque. And exactly the kind of stupidity Albini was attacking.
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Yeh... but nah.... MJ was filth. but this guy wanking off to a toddler getting raped is just as bad and arguably worse.
 
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belboid said:
as recently as in a very good 2022 interview (that has been widely quoted recently).

As I said before, I think it is grossly simplistic to simply say Sotos was a straightforward abuser. His work appears (I haven't studied it in any kind of detail) seems to be far more complex than that.
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His work is not in question here.

Have fun with your new rep as a defender of paedophiles! So edgey! So brave!
 
I sent that article on to a mate of mine who is really angry about it. Not because of the shit he was into, no, because it's 'cowardly' to release this shit after he's dead :facepalm: Not gonna hang out with him for a bit.

Brings to mind Russell Brand, hiding in plain sight all that time, I mean it's in there black and white. He may never have acted on his 'tastes' but given his position he would have had access to a lot of people of the younger persuasion so very possibly did.
 
scifisam said:
Yup. He hadn't changed.

This is really extreme stuff. It can never ever be excused. I'm disgusted that a couple of you are defending it, TBH.
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Agreed. I'm genuinely disgusted by what I read earlier and I don't give a fuck if it was being 'edgy' or whatever. There's no coming back from statements like that, for me.

I'm also surprised it's not been discussed more in the interim.

Really genuinely shocked by this. It's fucking horrible.
 
belboid said:
Jackson physically abused children. Lots of them. Repeatedly. To say that that isn't as bad as someone saying they liked CP mags (probably falsely) is grotesque. And exactly the kind of stupidity Albini was attacking.
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You're asuming he was 'attacking' anything and not just being a sick cunt. I don't think we have any evidence that he even thought he was being a sick cunt for any kind of reason besides his own amusement.
 
belboid said:
well, I just got my copy of the new album and I am going to play it very loud very soon.

Toying with the child sex abuse rags is inexcusable, even if it was 'just' (as I said I suspect and see no reason to disbelieve) he was just doing it to shock. The Sotos stuff isn't simply straightforward child porn though (as far as I can tell, not having ever seen it), it's revolting and shocking, but thats its point. Showing the hypocrisy between mass media coverage of child abuse and the brutal reality of it. It certainly does sound like Sotos was way too 'fascinated' by dark and violent imagery of all kinds and took part in some incredibly dubious behaviour ( to say the least). But that is quite different to Albini himself genuinely 'loving child porn.'
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I've been reluctant to get involved with this conversation, but I agree with Belboid.

I published one of the first critiques of Sotos online back in the 1990s (not written by me) and I have no love for the guy. But there is no evidence that he is actually a paedophile and even less that Albini is.

I accept that for most people this is a distinction so tiny that it is not worth discussing. And defending this material is by no means a hill I want to die on.

I think it is important that Albini has apologised comprehensively and over many years for his edgelord behaviour and I would like to believe that the stuff mentioned on this thread is covered by that. My guess is that most people will choose not to accept that apology when faced with the writing being quoted here. That's fine.

For me I don't think some stupid behaviour in the last century completely negates all his work.
 
Fozzie Bear said:
I've been reluctant to get involved with this conversation, but I agree with Belboid.

I published one of the first critiques of Sotos online back in the 1990s (not written by me) and I have no love for the guy. But there is no evidence that he is actually a paedophile and even less that Albini is.

I accept that for most people this is a distinction so tiny that it is not worth discussing. And defending this material is by no means a hill I want to die on.

I think it is important that Albini has apologised comprehensively and over many years for his edgelord behaviour and I would like to believe that the stuff mentioned on this thread is covered by that. My guess is that most people will choose not to accept that apology when faced with the writing being quoted here. That's fine.

For me I don't think some stupid behaviour in the last century completely negates all his work.
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Nope, paedophile doesn't just apply to people who directly abuse children, it applies to users and creators of child porn too. Which Albini and Sotos both were. They were, by definition, paedophiles.

"Stupid behaviour in the last century." Wow.

I've read the article, and he does apologise convincingly for saying horrible things, but it's clearly the racism and bigotry he's apologising for. Paedophilia is not covered by that. And a year later he was still defending Sotos, so forgive me for thinking he didn't actually regret consuming and promoting child torture porn at all.

You should have stuck with your instincts and not posted.
 
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Fozzie Bear said:
I've been reluctant to get involved with this conversation, but I agree with Belboid.

I published one of the first critiques of Sotos online back in the 1990s (not written by me) and I have no love for the guy. But there is no evidence that he is actually a paedophile and even less that Albini is.

I accept that for most people this is a distinction so tiny that it is not worth discussing. And defending this material is by no means a hill I want to die on.

I think it is important that Albini has apologised comprehensively and over many years for his edgelord behaviour and I would like to believe that the stuff mentioned on this thread is covered by that. My guess is that most people will choose not to accept that apology when faced with the writing being quoted here. That's fine.

For me I don't think some stupid behaviour in the last century completely negates all his work.
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Well yeh I get that. I still love Michael Jackson's music and Polanski's films. It's a bit weird though that this wasn't more widely known about, and I say that as a musician myself and someone who loves at least some of Albini's work, definitely not all. I won't stop listening to it as I can separate the art from the dodgy shit all these fuckers got up to. Albini seems to have been particularly extreme shit mind you. I doubt Cobain would have let him in to the studio during In In Utero if he had known about this and Frances Bean may have been there.
 
I have no idea what 'the quote' is so can hardly respond to that.

But I definitely find the idea that claiming to enjoy something vile is worse than actually doing it is absurd. There is no defence of his words, the fact that they are not as bad as something else doesn't make them 'okay' - as some seem to be implying I am saying.
 
scifisam said:
His work is not in question here.
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Sorry, whose work?
scifisam said:
Have fun with your new rep as a defender of paedophiles! So edgey! So brave!
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I'm. not trying to be fucking edgy or anything so pathetic. I am trying to understand why I guy I have admired for years said (and possibly said up until his death) some horrific things, and to understand the extent to which he did regret and speak out against his earlier views. There is no point in me not trying to say what I think he was doing at the time, as I want to get my head round it. Transgressive art takes many forms, by its nature it will sometimes go beyond what should be acceptable. And it certainly can go so far as to become pornographic and to be encouraging abuse. I honestly dont know what to make of Sotos, if and when he crossed a line, if he had always been beyond it, or what. I just do think that sometimes it does get complicated.
 
belboid said:
Sorry, whose work?

I'm. not trying to be fucking edgy or anything so pathetic. I am trying to understand why I guy I have admired for years said (and possibly said up until his death) some horrific things, and to understand the extent to which he did regret and speak out against his earlier views. There is no point in me not trying to say what I think he was doing at the time, as I want to get my head round it. Transgressive art takes many forms, by its nature it will sometimes go beyond what should be acceptable. And it certainly can go so far as to become pornographic and to be encouraging abuse. I honestly dont know what to make of Sotos, if and when he crossed a line, if he had always been beyond it, or what. I just do think that sometimes it does get complicated.
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Dude...

He's on record proudly claiming he 'loves that sort of thing' about a toddler being 'past crying' as she is 'destroyed'
 
belboid said:
Sorry, whose work?

I'm. not trying to be fucking edgy or anything so pathetic. I am trying to understand why I guy I have admired for years said (and possibly said up until his death) some horrific things, and to understand the extent to which he did regret and speak out against his earlier views. There is no point in me not trying to say what I think he was doing at the time, as I want to get my head round it. Transgressive art takes many forms, by its nature it will sometimes go beyond what should be acceptable. And it certainly can go so far as to become pornographic and to be encouraging abuse. I honestly dont know what to make of Sotos, if and when he crossed a line, if he had always been beyond it, or what. I just do think that sometimes it does get complicated.
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"Whose work?" Who the fuck do you think? Who's the thread about?

I honestly don't understand how you can have read that article and still be wondering if Sotos crossed the line. It wasn't "transgressive art," it was child torture porn. And Albini specifically described the violent child porn he loved best and how much he got off on it (I'm not going to directly quote it). There's a really no debating that. It's not complicated. Some situations can be, but not this one.

You won't be able to "get your head around it" if you're actually wondering whether distributing images of raped and murdered toddlers for sexual gratification crosses the line or not.

If we were talking in person, there is no way I'd continue this conversation or indeed be willing to be in the same room with you, so I'm doing the next best thing and putting you on ignore. And, you know, being an edgelord would have been better than you defending and downplaying extreme child porn.
 
Petcha said:
Well yeh I get that. I still love Michael Jackson's music and Polanski's films. It's a bit weird though that this wasn't more widely known about, and I say that as a musician myself and someone who loves at least some of Albini's work, definitely not all. I won't stop listening to it as I can separate the art from the dodgy shit all these fuckers got up to. Albini seems to have been particularly extreme shit mind you. I doubt Cobain would have let him in to the studio during In In Utero if he had known about this and Frances Bean may have been there.
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There are definitely lots of arguments in favour of separating the art and the artist - at least after they've died and are no longer getting money or status from your consumption of it. But that doesn't mean you have to start pretending the artist wasn't an abuser/racist/etc. I mean, I love James Brown's music, but he was an abusive bastard - I'll never defend his reputation or try to find excuses for it.
 
scifisam said:
This is really extreme stuff. It can never ever be excused. I'm disgusted that a couple of you are defending it, TBH.
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I'm not defending it, but I can see a difference between some punk in the 80s saying "I love child abuse" to be outrageous and actual child abuse.

You seem to be taking what he wrote as being literal truth rather than shitty edgelordism.

Do you think Siouxsie Sioux was a nazi because she wore a swastika armband?

I appreciate that child abuse is an emotive issue. I've worked with abused children and seen the effects. It was a stupid thing to say. Steve Albini thought it was a stupid thing to say in retrospect, but there's no take backs once something is in print.
 
Spandex said:
I'm not defending it, but I can see a difference between some punk in the 80s saying "I love child abuse" to be outrageous and actual child abuse.

You seem to be taking what he wrote as being literal truth rather than shitty edgelordism.

Do you think Siouxsie Sioux was a nazi because she wore a swastika armband?

I appreciate that child abuse is an emotive issue. I've worked with abused children and seen the effects. It was a stupid thing to say. Steve Albini thought it was a stupid thing to say in retrospect, but there's no take backs once something is in print.
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You didn't read the article either then, did you. And yes, I think to write what he wrote, defend the people he defended and consume the material he was consuming, it's not him just being an edgelord.

I suppose his actions in 2022 were just being a young punk too.
 
scifisam said:
You didn't read the article either then, did you
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Yes I did. It's a hit piece, taking a few disgusting things he said over the decades, removing all context and stitching it together create something to make people angry for clicks.
 
trashpony said:
Do you want them with context @Spandex? Because they don’t read any better in the context of a longer article.
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Do I want what with context? Descriptions of child abuse images?

No. I'd rather have never read it.

But that's not the context I'm referring to, is it? Its the difference between idiot boys thinking it was funny to say they love it 40 years ago to be edgy and those idiot boys being actual risk to the public abusers.
 
trashpony said:
Also - can we stop with the child porn. The word porn is typically used to mean consensual sex.

There’s no such thing as child porn. It’s rape and sexual assault, not porn.
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I agree it's never consensual and is rape and assault, but I think it still falls into the definition of pornography, consent is nothing to do with it, as far as dictionary definition goes . There's endless abuse, trafficking, rape etc in adult porn
 
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ska invita said:
I agree it's never consensual and is tape and assault, but I think it still falls into the definition of pornography, consent is missing to do with it, as far as dictionary definition goes . There's endless abuse, trafficking, rape etc in adult porn
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It normalises it. Anyway, let’s not get distracted.

I don’t know what context you’re referring to Spandex. He remained close friends with a paedophile his whole life. That gives me all the context I need.
 
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