Revolutionary Islam

[seventh bullet]

So far you've touted Carlos and Che, two middle-class wanna-be revos with a taste for killing. If either had been born a generation earlier, they'd have probably been fascists.

More seriously, the 'success' of focalism in Cuba was down to luck and fortuitous timing in conditions where change was ripe for the picking anyway? It didn't do too well elsewhere, with the dead bodies of idealists where inspiration was lacking in other countries.

 

[goldenecitrone]

if you don't like islam or boxing then you'd have hated Ali lol

Not to mention Mike Tyson.

 

[DotCommunist]

didn't know tyson was of the book.

 

[goldenecitrone]

didn't know tyson was of the book.

Apparently so. You can see why it might appeal to him.

 

[Dillinger4]

I am with you brother. My new name is Farouk, he who discerns truth from falsehood. Down with the Great Satan, eath to infidels, Allahu Akbar

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nah, Killer B's alright.

You dodge the substantive point.

Either you examine Mohammad as a historical figure, look at his motives, the forces around him, the wars he fought, the people he killed and why, in a dispassionate historical way. And you study his religious 'revelations' in the same spirit.

Or you say he was some figure to be respected. And as soon as you say that, I tell you that there is enough about him and his life for me to counter 'nah, he was a wanker'.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My wife is a Muslim atheist.

No, that is not an oxymoron. Islam is a culture as well as a religion. That is why Islamophobia is racism.

There are ex-Muslims who disagree. You don't have any particular claim to authority on this point.

 

[Citizen66]

That's the death knell of the Western Left right there.

God forbid anyone should take away their "music, dancing and fun." They'll fight to the death to defend "music, dancing and fun."

They seriously will.

My knowledge of UK history is fairly weak but didn't the Monarchy get reinstated in order to get back music, dancing and fun? Oliver Cromwell era I think.

 

[Citizen66]

What nonsense you spout! There are millions of converts to Islam.

Reverts you mean?

 

[JimW]

My knowledge of UK history is fairly weak but didn't the Monarchy get reinstated in order to get back music, dancing and fun? Oliver Cromwell era I think.

AFAICT it was more that the what they used to call the "political nation", the gentry and a couple of other vested interests,couldn't see past (ETA or thought their interests best served by) monarchical government (this was the era of Hobbes writing Leviathan to praise the form) - they'd tried to get Cromwell to take the crown and though he ended up monarch in all but name he wouldn't take a formal step as he thought the army wouldn't wear it IIRC. Your actual democrats were still a revolutionary fringe in the army and wider populace with only a few gentry advocates. So once Cromwell died the personal/historical charisma of a Stuart trumped that of the Protector's less than impressive son.

 

[Greebo]

Reverts you mean?

That depends on who's talking - the more devout Muslims tend to claim that everyone was destined to be Muslim (after all, it's supposedly the final reveelation to man from God) so if you weren't actually born one you're reverting and not converting.

OTOH others (including some Muslims) would put that type of thinking on a par with Mormons retrospectively admitting all of their possible ancestors into the LDS church by baptising the dead.

 

[Citizen66]

That depends on who's talking - the more devout Muslims tend to claim that everyone was destined to be Muslim (after all, it's supposedly the final reveelation to man from God) so if you weren't actually born one you're reverting and not converting.

OTOH others (invcluding some Muslims) would put that type of thinking on a par with Mormons retrospectively admitting all of their possible ancestors into the LDS church by baptising the dead.

Yeah I heard it in the context of the former so was throwing it in mischievously.

 

[phildwyer]

A


Your wife is non a practising Muslim?

I'm curious Phil is that they way she describes herself? I'd describe myself as a Irish Atheist. Most non practising people of a certain religion might not not define themselves as part of religious group and a atheist.

Why doesn't your wife describe herself as a turkish atheist for example?

She would--obviously they're not mutually exclusive. Turks identify with their religious communities whether or not they practice the religion. It's just like the "are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist" question in NI.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

A


Your wife is non a practising Muslim?

I'm curious Phil is that they way she describes herself? I'd describe myself as a Irish Atheist. Most non practising people of a certain religion might not not define themselves as part of religious group and a atheist.

Why doesn't your wife describe herself as a turkish atheist for example?

I agree it sounds slightly odd, but then people are free to define themselves in whatever way they like, no matter how strange it may sound to others. I suppose for some the line may be blurred as well between where the culture stops and the religion starts, although I don't know if this applies in this particular case.

 

[gentlegreen]

She would--obviously they're not mutually exclusive. Turks identify with their religious communities whether or not they practice the religion. It's just like the "are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist" question in NI.

Thankfully, on mainland UK, we can accurately define ourselves as atheist atheists.

 

[Greebo]

Thankfully, on mainland UK, we can accurately define ourselves as atheist atheists.

Perhaps you can and do. Even so, which beliefs and practices Atheists reject vary. One Indian Atheist (sorry don't remember who) said to George Bernard Shaw that they refused to believe in the existence of completely different gods and therefore couldn't possibly have Atheism in common.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Perhaps you can and do. Even so, which beliefs and practices Atheists reject vary. One Indian Atheist (sorry don't remember who) said to George Bernard Shaw that they refused to believe in the existence of completely different gods and therefore couldn't possibly have Atheism in common.

I like that. It neatly shows how atheists are as different in terms of their view of atheism as are followers of any religion. Everyone has their own take on things.

 

[gentlegreen]

The Hindus have some much cooler gods to not believe in.

 

[Greebo]

The Hindus have some much cooler gods to not believe in.

The festivals tend to be more fun too. Shame about the caste system. </derail>

Sorry, back to revolutionary Islam, or at least the possiblity of the Muslim equivalent of a slightly more vehement cultural christian existing...

 

[Spymaster]

One Indian Atheist (sorry don't remember who) said to George Bernard Shaw that they refused to believe in the existence of completely different gods and therefore couldn't possibly have Atheism in common.

If he was serious, he was an idiot, unless he believed in some gods and not others, in which case he wasn't an atheist.

 

[cesare]

There's a caste system in some Muslim countries too eg Pakistan

 

[Greebo]

If he was serious, he was an idiot.

And you say that because?

If you've grown away from the faith which surrounded you (or maybe still surrounds you) some of the default values will linger; be they actively rejected, or clung to as "I'm no [insert rejected religious path of choice] but I still don't do that or approve of this".

 

[Spymaster]

And you say that because?

Because whilst atheism comes in all different shapes and sizes, a common factor is the lack of belief that any god exists. His atheism may well have differed to that of GBS but not on the basis that they rejected different gods. Atheists reject all gods. Someone who accepts any god is a theist.

If you've grown away from the faith which surrounded you (or maybe still surrounds you) some of the default values will linger; be they actively rejected, or clung to as "I'm no [insert rejected religious path of choice] but I still don't do that or approve of this".

I see that as something different. One can reject organised religion or parts and teachings of it, and still not identify as an atheist by allowing space for the existence of a god or gods. I'm like that. Equally, one can subscribe to some religiously espoused principles and cultural aspects and still be an atheist if the deity is rejected.

 

[DownwardDog]

Oh yes, Cat Stevens...

Franck Ribéry. Although his particular interpretation of Islamic doctrine doesn't preclude smashing teenage whores.

 

[DotCommunist]

what a pleasant turn of phrase you have

 

[butchersapron]

Franck Ribéry. Although his particular interpretation of Islamic doctrine doesn't preclude smashing teenage whores.

Have a good long look at it folks - the culture that produced Jimmy Savile in all its glory.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've been doing a fair bit of reading around Islam and Islamism recently as it happens. I have not read the Koran and do not intend to; I haven't read any L Ron Hubbard either but I am comfortable in dismissing Scientology as a load of old pony as well.

The Koran is quite informative, read alongside Jewish and Christian scripture - you can see the points of variance, whereas nothing Elron ever wrote is worth reading, unless you're researching what a sociopathic mind can produce.

 

[Libertad]

Franck Ribéry. Although his particular interpretation of Islamic doctrine doesn't preclude smashing teenage whores.

Yuck.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More seriously, the 'success' of focalism in Cuba was down to luck and fortuitous timing in conditions where change was ripe for the picking anyway?

Yes. Had a chuckle at "ripe", given the involvement of the United Fruit Company.

It didn't do too well elsewhere, with the dead bodies of idealists where inspiration was lacking in other countries.

Also, as part of that failure, post-Cuba the US shifted a lot more money toward exercising the Monroe Doctrine - even more than they'd traditionally spent.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. Had a chuckle at "ripe", given the involvement of the United Fruit Company.



Also, as part of that failure, post-Cuba the US shifted a lot more money toward exercising the Monroe Doctrine - even more than they'd traditionally spent.

It was a bit more than that in Bolivia. Guevara did not understand the conservative peasant mentality. He encountered a bunch of poor people who didn't want his brand of liberation, and didn't quite know how to react to it.