Rebellion punk festival in Blackpool
- Thread starter kalidarkone
- Start date
bamalama
don't do that
trevhagl has done exactly what every other apologist on this issue has done,answered nothin,made himself out to be some sort of victim because people have the bloody minded cheek to point this stuff out,and tryin to undermine the people who've pointed it out...why, it's almost as if he's come across this before,in the ten odd years the argument's been going on in his "scene".Here, he's picked a row he can't finish.
Here's a recent article from a canadian site on this subject.It's about c*ndemned 84 another shite fence sittin band,and that's being generous imo.For me the most important part of the whole thing is the last two paragraphs...
http://condemned84.wordpress.com
Also from the thread about fascism and industrial music there's this from Fozzie Bear
Well I think this was the idea all along - the "cultural war" aspect of it. Getting people to use imagery /see things in a certain way - but not being explicit about it.
That about sums up the way these people are operating in my opinion,especially the drummer boy,who apparently has a "vision" of music for the masses,and is fond of the letters ISP on his promotional material(international skinhead pride),which is very reminiscent of the letters ISD,used to refer to ian stuart donaldson on the nazi bonehead circuit.He's very fond of appropriating the shite that comes from boneheadsville...
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Without getting in to the personal arguments, I must say this thread has been good at making me think about the current punk scene, as someone who is relatively young and never experienced much of the fascist side first hand... there is a lot of much younger people than me into it now and it is well to be careful of this kind of thing, particularly in these turbulent times.
http://bostonbrock.tumblr.com/post/17426097306/the-real-deal-by-phil-templar-on-wednesday-november
sent to me by the band. I shouldn't imagine it will make any difference to my 'friends' on here , but there you go .
sent to me by the band. I shouldn't imagine it will make any difference to my 'friends' on here , but there you go .
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
White text on a light background - what a brilliant idea!
aye thats something we WILL agree on!
Lars Iversen
Hi Trev! That was a lot of stuff to read; I hope I understood everything, there are some informal phrases I'm not really familiar with Of course this is nothing new for me; I joined Stomper 98 in August 2008, and that was shortly after the shitstorm against Stomper began (mostly on the internet of course ) Indeed, Stomper 98 as a band and members of the band did mistakes in the past, no doubt about that. All of these mistakes were made before I joined S98; don't get me wrong, this is not an excuse, just an explanation. Shortly after I joined I got to know all about these accusations, made up my mind and decided to stay. The most critized member of Stomper 98 seems to be Phil Templar; some of the "keyboard warriors" here in Germany even call him "Nazi Nigger", which is incredibly ridiculous. The person Phil Templar has been widely discussed in the "Rock Against Fascism" group on facebook nearly two years ago. Phil is old enough to speak for himself, and he did posting this statement: http://bostonbrock.tumblr.com/post/17426097306/the-real-deal-by-phil-templar-on-wednesday-november I think that says it all ... This "bamalama" guy is obviously a supporter of "superficial knowledge", isn'he? Of course it's (nearly) true when he says "particularly sebi the lead singer and lars the bassist who both played with fascist bands around that time.The bassist played with endstufe,can't remember who the lead singer played with", but that's definitely not the whole story. Back in the 80s, when I was 18, I started to play bass with ENSTUFE, which was by that time one of the leading skinhead bands in Germany, very much influenced by British Oi bands like 4Skins, Last Resort, Business, the like. After a bit more than one year, 2 gigs, and one album ("Skinhead Rock'n'Roll") I quit (in April 1990). In the beginning politics have never been a subject within the band, but when the band started to drift towards the right wing (while I was starting to make up my mind about politics in general), I left the band because of the politics. I became aware that I'm a skinhead and not a fucking nazi. At the age of 19 I lost 2/3 of my so-called "friends" over night, got blamed as a traitor (and worse). Quite hard times but in the end it was worth it. Sebi is five years younger than me, and he had quite the similar development, just five years later (just for the record, his band was called BOOTS BROTHERS, a band I don't even heard of before). I guess it was even harder for him because the "right wing scene" by that time was more closed in itself than it was in 1990. Remember Attila's poem "... you don't leave the master race ..." Alright mate, I hope that's enough for now, if you have any more questions feel free to ask! KTF, cheers, Lars
Hi Trev! That was a lot of stuff to read; I hope I understood everything, there are some informal phrases I'm not really familiar with Of course this is nothing new for me; I joined Stomper 98 in August 2008, and that was shortly after the shitstorm against Stomper began (mostly on the internet of course ) Indeed, Stomper 98 as a band and members of the band did mistakes in the past, no doubt about that. All of these mistakes were made before I joined S98; don't get me wrong, this is not an excuse, just an explanation. Shortly after I joined I got to know all about these accusations, made up my mind and decided to stay. The most critized member of Stomper 98 seems to be Phil Templar; some of the "keyboard warriors" here in Germany even call him "Nazi Nigger", which is incredibly ridiculous. The person Phil Templar has been widely discussed in the "Rock Against Fascism" group on facebook nearly two years ago. Phil is old enough to speak for himself, and he did posting this statement: http://bostonbrock.tumblr.com/post/17426097306/the-real-deal-by-phil-templar-on-wednesday-november I think that says it all ... This "bamalama" guy is obviously a supporter of "superficial knowledge", isn'he? Of course it's (nearly) true when he says "particularly sebi the lead singer and lars the bassist who both played with fascist bands around that time.The bassist played with endstufe,can't remember who the lead singer played with", but that's definitely not the whole story. Back in the 80s, when I was 18, I started to play bass with ENSTUFE, which was by that time one of the leading skinhead bands in Germany, very much influenced by British Oi bands like 4Skins, Last Resort, Business, the like. After a bit more than one year, 2 gigs, and one album ("Skinhead Rock'n'Roll") I quit (in April 1990). In the beginning politics have never been a subject within the band, but when the band started to drift towards the right wing (while I was starting to make up my mind about politics in general), I left the band because of the politics. I became aware that I'm a skinhead and not a fucking nazi. At the age of 19 I lost 2/3 of my so-called "friends" over night, got blamed as a traitor (and worse). Quite hard times but in the end it was worth it. Sebi is five years younger than me, and he had quite the similar development, just five years later (just for the record, his band was called BOOTS BROTHERS, a band I don't even heard of before). I guess it was even harder for him because the "right wing scene" by that time was more closed in itself than it was in 1990. Remember Attila's poem "... you don't leave the master race ..." Alright mate, I hope that's enough for now, if you have any more questions feel free to ask! KTF, cheers, Lars
and his other band (song 15...)
http://www.music-bazaar.com/greek-music/album/300771/Ox-Compilation-Vol-90-MAG/
http://www.music-bazaar.com/greek-music/album/300771/Ox-Compilation-Vol-90-MAG/
bamalama
don't do that
Don't be fooled into thinkin these are personal arguments,it's a well worn tactic used by some to avoid discussing the issues around this stuff...See post 218 above
bamalama
don't do that
Haven't enough time to reply to trevs posts now,i'll hopefully come back to it later.Here's an interesting article on the subject though,it's a sort of sister article to the one linked to by rutabowa earlier in the thread.This stuff is translated from german so it may read a bit "funny" for want of a better word
https://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/greyzone-in-germany-the-cult-of-randomness/#more-707
https://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/greyzone-in-germany-the-cult-of-randomness/#more-707
some of that is indeed true but i have been told that the people in germany who research dodgy bands have also labelled Gimp Fist , Stage Bottles and Crashed Out as 'greyzone' !! Which sorta devalues any logic arguments they may have - is this true?
bamalama
don't do that
Why are ye askin me if it's true,do ye not trust your source?
bamalama
don't do that
This is probably gonna be a long post trevhagl ,but i'll try and make it as short as i can,mainly because havin to synthesise stuff that's been around a good few years now for someone who should know this stuff is slowly sapping my will...
First of all the two statements that have been linked to from phil rigaud and lars inversen,are scanty, sneering, without any substance,either politically or in terms of self reflection.
They both indulge in the usual bollocks of tryin to undermine anyone who questions their behaviour/politics/motivation.They both refuse to address any of the questions/issues which have lead to the situation they find themselves in,willingly.
In rigauds case the whole thing is laced with nasty homophobic shite,no surprises there then,at least the man knows how to play to his audience of "real men".These people also insist on personalising the debate as opposed to addressing the politics of the thing,which gives them a framework they can work with,somethin that you've coveniently done on this thread trev...well done once again.
Now without goin over old ground here's an important link to read with regards to this issue,something iversen doesn't even address in his "reply" to you.Try and read it this time trev...the whole thing
http://nomattimen.wordpress.com/201...d-cult-the-argument-about-oi-band-stomper-98/
The "sister" article of this one i linked to above is here
http://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/greyzone-in-germany-the-cult-of-randomness/
Read them both together to get a flavour of what's being discussed
So lets ignore the liguistic framework iversen uses to set out his stall,stuff like
"the shitstorm against stomper 98"
"mostly on the internet of course"
"these accusations"
"keyboard warriors"
"nazi n*gger"
Lets get down to the meat n veg of it.Never have i heard,anywhere,the phrase nazi n*gger used to describe rigaud,i don't believe that was used by anyone on the progressive side of this debate,and definitely not by anyone i know...sounds more like something rigaud and his right wing pals would've come up with themselves.So i'd like to see the evidence for this please...
The people who research this stuff,trev,are the same people who've been goin to the gigs for years,some are punters,some run record labels,some are in bands,some are promoters...almost all of them were active in smashing the fascists out of their scene when your pal iversen was consorting with the very same fascists,before he moved on(about the only thing he's been honest about).
Endstufe were not germanys biggest "skinhead band" whatever that means,they were however one of the most well known on the rightwing/neo nazi/bonehead scene,together with KdF and storkraft they were important to the nazi bonehead movement.They were extremely right wing at the time when you pal joined them although not openly neo-nazi,any german skinhead from the time who didn't know this was very naive or a liar.
The band had already been going for near six years by the time your pal recorded "skinhead rock n roll" with them,a phrase invented by ian stuart and his scarecrow cronies.Their first two lps,the second of which iversen played on were released on rock o rama records,a label which by the mid 80's released ultra nationalist and neo nazi "rock",and records by our oul friends skrewdriver...
Now i'm not sure why your mate has felt the need to muddy these facts up ,or misrepresent them , i have a theory,but we'll come to that later.
I don't really want to spend anymore time pullin your pals reply to you apart,because i think it's just playin into the hands of people who want to individualise the debate rather than deal with the politics of it,although the endstufe thing is important...
Sorry to disapoint larsy boy but he's actually fairly peripheral to this debate (and i think he'll jump ship in the next year or so,havin established himself as a "face " through playin with s98,that's just my personal view).
The two characters who really matter in the argument over s98 and the issue of "grey zone" bands /politics, are sebastian "sebi" walkenhorst and phil "templar" rigaud.The reasons are this,photos that have appeared of walkenhorst with nazis/right wing fuckers,and the fact that rigaud is one dodgy right wing cunt who is determined to spread his particular americanised version dodgy shite throughout europe, to youngsters, using himself as a brand through his shite bands/music,dj escapades,promotions and tshirt business.To establish a common anti left hegemony...for money
[contd
First of all the two statements that have been linked to from phil rigaud and lars inversen,are scanty, sneering, without any substance,either politically or in terms of self reflection.
They both indulge in the usual bollocks of tryin to undermine anyone who questions their behaviour/politics/motivation.They both refuse to address any of the questions/issues which have lead to the situation they find themselves in,willingly.
In rigauds case the whole thing is laced with nasty homophobic shite,no surprises there then,at least the man knows how to play to his audience of "real men".These people also insist on personalising the debate as opposed to addressing the politics of the thing,which gives them a framework they can work with,somethin that you've coveniently done on this thread trev...well done once again.
Now without goin over old ground here's an important link to read with regards to this issue,something iversen doesn't even address in his "reply" to you.Try and read it this time trev...the whole thing
http://nomattimen.wordpress.com/201...d-cult-the-argument-about-oi-band-stomper-98/
The "sister" article of this one i linked to above is here
http://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/greyzone-in-germany-the-cult-of-randomness/
Read them both together to get a flavour of what's being discussed
So lets ignore the liguistic framework iversen uses to set out his stall,stuff like
"the shitstorm against stomper 98"
"mostly on the internet of course"
"these accusations"
"keyboard warriors"
"nazi n*gger"
Lets get down to the meat n veg of it.Never have i heard,anywhere,the phrase nazi n*gger used to describe rigaud,i don't believe that was used by anyone on the progressive side of this debate,and definitely not by anyone i know...sounds more like something rigaud and his right wing pals would've come up with themselves.So i'd like to see the evidence for this please...
The people who research this stuff,trev,are the same people who've been goin to the gigs for years,some are punters,some run record labels,some are in bands,some are promoters...almost all of them were active in smashing the fascists out of their scene when your pal iversen was consorting with the very same fascists,before he moved on(about the only thing he's been honest about).
Endstufe were not germanys biggest "skinhead band" whatever that means,they were however one of the most well known on the rightwing/neo nazi/bonehead scene,together with KdF and storkraft they were important to the nazi bonehead movement.They were extremely right wing at the time when you pal joined them although not openly neo-nazi,any german skinhead from the time who didn't know this was very naive or a liar.
The band had already been going for near six years by the time your pal recorded "skinhead rock n roll" with them,a phrase invented by ian stuart and his scarecrow cronies.Their first two lps,the second of which iversen played on were released on rock o rama records,a label which by the mid 80's released ultra nationalist and neo nazi "rock",and records by our oul friends skrewdriver...
Now i'm not sure why your mate has felt the need to muddy these facts up ,or misrepresent them , i have a theory,but we'll come to that later.
I don't really want to spend anymore time pullin your pals reply to you apart,because i think it's just playin into the hands of people who want to individualise the debate rather than deal with the politics of it,although the endstufe thing is important...
Sorry to disapoint larsy boy but he's actually fairly peripheral to this debate (and i think he'll jump ship in the next year or so,havin established himself as a "face " through playin with s98,that's just my personal view).
The two characters who really matter in the argument over s98 and the issue of "grey zone" bands /politics, are sebastian "sebi" walkenhorst and phil "templar" rigaud.The reasons are this,photos that have appeared of walkenhorst with nazis/right wing fuckers,and the fact that rigaud is one dodgy right wing cunt who is determined to spread his particular americanised version dodgy shite throughout europe, to youngsters, using himself as a brand through his shite bands/music,dj escapades,promotions and tshirt business.To establish a common anti left hegemony...for money
[contd
bamalama
don't do that
[contd]
This whole scene in germany is relatively small and everyone knows,or has heard of everyone else,it's hard to keep a low profile especially if your in a fairly successful band.People had suspected sebastian "sebi" walkenhorst since he first appeared on the scene because (contrary to your mate lars' bullshit)they knew about his nazi past and the band he was in.
In short he wasn't trusted not least because he never showed any remorse for his previous actions/politics and just expected to be able to stroll into a scene that had been cleared of nazis,to sell his new bands records,worldview...for money.
It's important to note here that everyone recognises both him and lars walked away from their dodgy nazi scene.Wether sebi in particular left his contact with these people behind him is what's in question.
This came to a head in 2008 when photos emerged of walkenhorst at a right wing gig,organised by a group of boneheads (it's all layed out in the links above)with an incarnation of the 4skins and indecent exposure.This version of the 4skins is ,in fact,indecent exposure with the original 4skins singer.Apart from questions being asked as to why walkenhorst and other members of s98 were even at a dodgy gig,one of the photos shows walkenhorst (tryin to cover his face ,unsuccessfully,with a raised fist)arm in arm with a neo nazi friend of his,you guessed it ,the lead singer of endstufe,a wanker called jans brandt,fascist tats and all...Lars iversen seems to have totally forgotten that this photo of the singer of his current band with the fascist singer of his old band is what started the"shitstorm against stomper 98"...why?I call disingenuous cunt,but thats just me with my contrary ways ,eh trev?
Frankly trevhagl i could batter on about this stuff for pages and pages,but like i said earlier,it's sapping my will to have to cover so much old ground,for someone who should know this stuff...someone who appears to need to be told what to do/think when all the info that you need is already freely available.So that's me done for now,this has taken me far too long as it is.
For anyone who's interested google rotes hetzpamphlet and work from there,you should be able to find relevent photos and articles,although most is in german
This whole scene in germany is relatively small and everyone knows,or has heard of everyone else,it's hard to keep a low profile especially if your in a fairly successful band.People had suspected sebastian "sebi" walkenhorst since he first appeared on the scene because (contrary to your mate lars' bullshit)they knew about his nazi past and the band he was in.
In short he wasn't trusted not least because he never showed any remorse for his previous actions/politics and just expected to be able to stroll into a scene that had been cleared of nazis,to sell his new bands records,worldview...for money.
It's important to note here that everyone recognises both him and lars walked away from their dodgy nazi scene.Wether sebi in particular left his contact with these people behind him is what's in question.
This came to a head in 2008 when photos emerged of walkenhorst at a right wing gig,organised by a group of boneheads (it's all layed out in the links above)with an incarnation of the 4skins and indecent exposure.This version of the 4skins is ,in fact,indecent exposure with the original 4skins singer.Apart from questions being asked as to why walkenhorst and other members of s98 were even at a dodgy gig,one of the photos shows walkenhorst (tryin to cover his face ,unsuccessfully,with a raised fist)arm in arm with a neo nazi friend of his,you guessed it ,the lead singer of endstufe,a wanker called jans brandt,fascist tats and all...Lars iversen seems to have totally forgotten that this photo of the singer of his current band with the fascist singer of his old band is what started the"shitstorm against stomper 98"...why?I call disingenuous cunt,but thats just me with my contrary ways ,eh trev?
Frankly trevhagl i could batter on about this stuff for pages and pages,but like i said earlier,it's sapping my will to have to cover so much old ground,for someone who should know this stuff...someone who appears to need to be told what to do/think when all the info that you need is already freely available.So that's me done for now,this has taken me far too long as it is.
For anyone who's interested google rotes hetzpamphlet and work from there,you should be able to find relevent photos and articles,although most is in german
bamalama
don't do that
Germany has very specific circumstances given its history and given how the "skinhead cult" as a mass thing was exported there in the early 80's...mainly by right wing squaddies.It was already changed from its original form by the 80's boneheads who exported it to the country they fetishised because of its nazi past.
This didn't sit well with some german skinheads who saw themselves as more traditionally reggae/soul orientated.Their tolerance for this kind of stuff is way lower than in england. For instance,the chances of nazi boneheads being able to walk around a festival in germany, of the rebellion kind,wearing fascist band tshirts and openly sieging,unchallenged/unmolested are slim at best...serious violence would be the likely result,as it was in the past where they got a fierce hiding every time they showed their ugly mugs,particularly in the early to mid 90's (although this may be starting to change because of the fence sitting behaviour of some...).That's how the german scene was cleared of this shite,literature within the scene propaganda outside it and fierce hand to hand confrontations.A lot of hard work,sometimes at personal risk to the individuals involved,was put into it.People have already done it and they don't want to have to do it again.They're concerned about the right re-establishing itself,and about the effect this could have on "a-political" youngsters who weren't there/don't remember it the first time. So they are very vigilant.
At one point ,like in england, the boneheads were briefly in the ascendancy,briefly,and it was hard to challenge them cos they were organised ,had a unifying ideology and were able to strut around spreading their shite and recruiting youngsters...and some people made excuses for them,and let them away with it.This is what they want again,it's got fuck all to do with music imo but it has everything to do with consolidating their influence in a mainly male,white scene which they see as their natural territory/sphere of operation/opportunity for recruitment.
What muggy idiots like s98 and our friend rigaud are doing...for money... is providing them with an atmosphere in which they become tolerated again ie a socially conservative (at best) atmosphere in which "political correctness" (whatever that is,although apparently sometimes it goes mad...) and the perceived left are sneered at and attacked (see rac). The values of the white hetero street fighting (heh) male are elevated as the (prefered) norm.The perfect sea for the neo nazi bones to swim in,and that's what they are increasingly doin,even attempting it in the reggae/soul areas.
What the singer sebi and the drummer rigaud are doin as regards to actually mixing with and socialising with these fuckers (enabled by their excusing fan club/bandmates)is much worse.It's normalising these nazi fucks in the eyes of younger or stupider,more naive sections of their audience,providing them with a direct "in".Rigaud in particular has a very americanised,rabid hatred of "communism",which for the likes of him has a very broad definition.This manifests itself in most of the shite bands he plays for,and most of the promotional stuff he does...for money...it's got fuck all to do with the colour of his skin (believe it or not new york was known for having a contingent of black "nazi" "skinheads" in the 80's),and everything to do with the colour of his dodgy political agenda...which by the way is "anti-politics"...apparently,however it seems to always manifest itself as anti-communism.Pretty much what ye'd expect from a musical fetishist who collects rac/white power/blood and honour records.His particular fetish is obscure right wing french bands from the eighties,like "the bleach boys","tolbiacs toads","snix", and the "evil skins".I'm typing this stuff off the top of me head and i'll withdraw any inaccuracies,that people can point out...Hopefully this clarifies some of what my opinion is on the subject,backed up by some facts trevhagl
This didn't sit well with some german skinheads who saw themselves as more traditionally reggae/soul orientated.Their tolerance for this kind of stuff is way lower than in england. For instance,the chances of nazi boneheads being able to walk around a festival in germany, of the rebellion kind,wearing fascist band tshirts and openly sieging,unchallenged/unmolested are slim at best...serious violence would be the likely result,as it was in the past where they got a fierce hiding every time they showed their ugly mugs,particularly in the early to mid 90's (although this may be starting to change because of the fence sitting behaviour of some...).That's how the german scene was cleared of this shite,literature within the scene propaganda outside it and fierce hand to hand confrontations.A lot of hard work,sometimes at personal risk to the individuals involved,was put into it.People have already done it and they don't want to have to do it again.They're concerned about the right re-establishing itself,and about the effect this could have on "a-political" youngsters who weren't there/don't remember it the first time. So they are very vigilant.
At one point ,like in england, the boneheads were briefly in the ascendancy,briefly,and it was hard to challenge them cos they were organised ,had a unifying ideology and were able to strut around spreading their shite and recruiting youngsters...and some people made excuses for them,and let them away with it.This is what they want again,it's got fuck all to do with music imo but it has everything to do with consolidating their influence in a mainly male,white scene which they see as their natural territory/sphere of operation/opportunity for recruitment.
What muggy idiots like s98 and our friend rigaud are doing...for money... is providing them with an atmosphere in which they become tolerated again ie a socially conservative (at best) atmosphere in which "political correctness" (whatever that is,although apparently sometimes it goes mad...) and the perceived left are sneered at and attacked (see rac). The values of the white hetero street fighting (heh) male are elevated as the (prefered) norm.The perfect sea for the neo nazi bones to swim in,and that's what they are increasingly doin,even attempting it in the reggae/soul areas.
What the singer sebi and the drummer rigaud are doin as regards to actually mixing with and socialising with these fuckers (enabled by their excusing fan club/bandmates)is much worse.It's normalising these nazi fucks in the eyes of younger or stupider,more naive sections of their audience,providing them with a direct "in".Rigaud in particular has a very americanised,rabid hatred of "communism",which for the likes of him has a very broad definition.This manifests itself in most of the shite bands he plays for,and most of the promotional stuff he does...for money...it's got fuck all to do with the colour of his skin (believe it or not new york was known for having a contingent of black "nazi" "skinheads" in the 80's),and everything to do with the colour of his dodgy political agenda...which by the way is "anti-politics"...apparently,however it seems to always manifest itself as anti-communism.Pretty much what ye'd expect from a musical fetishist who collects rac/white power/blood and honour records.His particular fetish is obscure right wing french bands from the eighties,like "the bleach boys","tolbiacs toads","snix", and the "evil skins".I'm typing this stuff off the top of me head and i'll withdraw any inaccuracies,that people can point out...Hopefully this clarifies some of what my opinion is on the subject,backed up by some facts trevhagl
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cos you seem to know more than me
bamalama
don't do that
I appear to know more than you (although i'm not convinced by that) because i make it my business to know,although my "business" is not selling/distributing these records...for money...yours is .You should be makin it your business to know about this stuff.
I'm assuming that you also have contact with the bands you mentioned,why don't ye ask them?
bamalama
don't do that
I think you're refusing to take any of this on board,you've tried every wriggle in the book,the exact same ones that have been used by the people who've been making excuses for themselves and the various bands who consort with/knowingly play to fascists,whilst at the same time "slagging them of".
The problem for yourself seems to be not the actions/behaviour of the bands etc in question but the sheer audacity of the people who draw attention to it.Are you actually sayin that someone who has embedded themselves in your "scene",yet keeps contact /friendly and enabling relations with fascists,shouldn't be pulled up on it,and when they lie,talk shite and try to undermine the people who pull them on it,they should just be ignored or excused?
Who do you mean when you say "you" by the way?The sheer weight of numbers amongst punters, zines, labels on your 'scene" who have drawn attention to this stuff?
What about a bit of analysis here mate,even a vague opinion based on what you know would do,and less of the inane shite.Bit of respect for the people on here who buy stuff off ye might be nice eh?
People aren't mugs trev... nudge,nudge...and when they ask questions of bands who expect them to buy their records,they deserve straight answers or they're gonna smell a big fuckin rat...and there's a lot of people smelling a big fuckin rat on this subject.
josef1878
Well-Known Member
bamalama
don't do that
What?
josef1878
Well-Known Member
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ta to elbows: Please help the conspirator anti-semite.
I'd hate to have those guys on my side. The whole "he's not a nonce or an anti-semite it is all smears" schtick doesn't help his case. Perhaps all the holocaust denial crap on his website and the stuff I actually heard him say about Kate Middleton being part of a Jewish plot to hijack the crown was also part of an elaboarate plot by the plod.
