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Plaid say "don't tax big business!"

Udo Erasmus said:
No. But the EU are in the game of trying to force countries that are part of them to implement neo-liberal measures. To join the Euro, you have to sign up to neo-liberal measures, the European Constitution similarly contained clauses which bound signatories to restructuring their economies on neo-liberal measures. Anyway, for us socialist's capitalism is outdated too!

Where did Plaid stand on the Euro & the European Constitution? It fully supports them.

Across Europe, alliances of the trade union movement, socialists, communists, left wing members of social democrat parties etc. forced the defeat of the European Constitution. In Wales, Plaid would be fighting against the left to support it!

Euro workers legislation has been better than anything we've gotten from the UK though.

Plaid didn't 'fully support' the EU Constitution at all, their position was to have a referendum. And the single currency hasn't really come up in relation to Wales yet.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid? The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly. There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.

Don't pretend you're all clean though, Galloway's lifestyle is questionable considering the politics he supports. I don't mind though, because he doesn't call himself a revolutionary socialist.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Lewislewis, you must be aware that Plaid policy is for Coalition troops to be replaced with "peace-keepers", that is to say, the UN is not just to play a "humanitarian role" but also a "military role". Plaid call for the troops to be pulled out and replaced with different troops! This couldn't but be interpreted as evidence that they don't believe that Iraqis are capable of handling their own affairs. In a sense, the head of the British army has come out to the left of Plaid because he argues that foreign troops exacerbate the security problem in Iraq rather than solve it, whereas Plaid argue that foreign troops (albeit from "neutral" countries are needed to oversee security)

I have heard numerous Plaid members outline either the "muslim troop" option or the "neutral UN troops" if you just look up the archives of Western Mail/South Wales Echo you can find Jill Evans MEP, Leanne Wood AM, Bethan Jenkins, Adam Price MP (all considered to be on the left of the party) arguing this - it's no secret. I also at an election hustings heard Plaid candidate, Neil McEvoy carefully distance himself from speakers from RESPECT and the Socialist Party who were arguing for an immediate and unconditional withdrawal of ALL foreign troops from Iraq & argued for a phased withdrawal with troops from Muslim countries sent in.

To be fair, Plaid's oposition to the war has been more principled and consistent than the LibDems, and socialists can work with Plaid members, but they can hardly be considered to be anti-imperialist.

To deal with your final point, that is acknowledged, the reason you are so opposed to Plaid is because you worry we could soak up left support that you wish would instead go to your organisations, the SWp & Respect.

It is possible that UN troops would be needed but the actual Plaid policy is withdraw from Iraq.
Plaid members can argue for UN peacekeepers in that country if necessary, I don't think the UN peacekeeping record is as bad as not sending them in. It is likely that more powerful countries than us will decide this anyway, and I don't think a force under the banner of the UN (thus subject to international scrutiny) would be as irresponsible as forces of the Iraqi puppet government in things like guarding refugee camps, safeguarding humanitarian supplies etc. But we'll see how things the develop. The key issue should be to withdraw our troops, then if necessary I would argue that the war-making countries should pay reparations to Iraq.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
I have to disagree with you. Surely, you don't oppose Military Families against the War trying to get support in the courts for a public inquiry into the case for going to war? I think that if Blair was impeached it would surely be a victory for the anti-war movement, but if we are brutally honest the campaign has been failure, there is no chance of Blair being impeached. The supporters of the campaign could have used it as a good publicity stunt to publicise Blair's war crimes - in a similar manner to the Russell-Sartre International War Crimes Tribunal, but it looks like Adam Price MP was more locked into the game of trying to get support from other politicians rather than building mass public meeetings across the UK.

Niclas is a joker when he claims that Plaid are anti-imperialist. They seriously wobbled over opposing the occupation of Iraq. In the 2003 Assembly elections they took the safe option of "don't mention the war", because their had recently been a surge of support in the early weeks of the occupation. This is quite typical of reformist parties who are prepared to sell out an occupied people if it will gain them votes.

I remember an article in 2003/4 in Heddwch (magazine of CND Cymru) where the deputy leader of Plaid, Jill Evans MEP wrote: "we can't just walk away". A slightly stupid statement as the imperialist occupiers of that country have no intention of walking away until they set-up a pro-western client state that will let them fleece the natural resources of Iraq or are driven out by the resistance.

But more fundamentally, Plaid's position of the occupation of Iraq is fundamentally misguided and blatantly not anti-imperialist. They don't call for all foreign troops to leave Iraq, they actually call for foreign troops to be sent to Iraq!

Plaid want to pull out US/UK troops and replace them with Muslim troops. They seem to forget that the Americans have already used Muslim Iraqi troops to massacre and crush uprisings in Fallujah, Mosul and elsewhere.

Leaving aside, the question of whether any Muslim country would want to send troops to Iraq. Where would these Muslim troops come from? Iran, Syria, Lebanon or Palestine? Of course not, these countries are not client-states of the US. The US would insist that they came from the regimes that they prop-up. I'm sure that Muslim Turkey would love to send troops into Iraqi Kurdistan!

Plaid also now talk of neutral UN troops. It is clear that things have moved beyond the stage where changing the colour of the helmets would help things and I can guarantee that the UN will have as much success in Iraq as NATO in Afghanistan.

Imagine a situation where the US was being forced to withdraw, how would they continue to dominate Iraq? They would go for the UN figleaf. American troops are getting seriously bogged down in Iraq, they might well soon hope to be bailed out by UN troops. The idea that UN troops in Iraq would be independent of the foreign-policy objectives of the United States is naive.

Plaid's support of a UN occupation also fails to look at the evidence of other countries where the UN have stepped in, such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti

In Kosovo, Imperialist Viceroy, Paddy Ashdown is a dictator who can sack democratically elected governments and there have been demonstrations against the UN. In Kosovo, under the UN dictatorship, UN forces and their paid surrogates have been running a mini-Guantanamo. In the Congo, UN troops are involved in sex-trafficking. In a country like Iraq where nationalist sentiment is far higher, a UN occupation would prolong the agony of the Iraqi people.

No I do not oppose the Military Families Campaign. But like the International War Crimes thingy it is irrelevant to mobilsing working people to oppose imperialist wars. As for the rest of your post I agree with it in broad outline but attacking a bourgeois party like Plaid is easy.
 
niclas said:
The good Lord has been a semi-detached member of Plaid (and possibly the human race) for some years now... no, he's not one of the socialists in Plaid.

Would you please name the so-called socialists in Plaid? Do they hold right wing imperialist views similar to yours by any chance?
 
neprimerimye said:
Would you please name the so-called socialists in Plaid? Do they hold right wing imperialist views similar to yours by any chance?

I feel Wales' future can only be safeguarded by a full scale invasion of the Congo, the Police Constable of Llandrindod Wells leading the counter-revolutionary vanguard (Howard Marksist-Lennonist).
 
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