Plaid say "don't tax big business!"

[osterberg]

"LOL"you say?
I am hurt
I do apologise that our several milion Respect members have not covered every single working class estate in the entire universe and have been unable to visit your humble abode.

Why do you see huge queues on telly of people trying to get NHS dentists?
Must be a figure of my fevered imagination.

I went to uni when there were no fees and there were plenty of working class students.Mind you I went to the Uni of Glam.

Very cynical,aren't you?

I'm not talking to you anymore,you're making me depressed.

 

[lewislewis]

Nice party political broadcast.
Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.

But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.

 

[osterberg]

But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.

Your point is?

 

[zog]

But he was actually at the conference, you and I were not.

Now I was at this years confrence, though not as a Plaid member, would that make my opinions more valid?

 

[llantwit]

Now I was at this years confrence, though not as a Plaid member, would that make my opinions more valid?

But aren't you inglish?
Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.

 

[zog]

But aren't you inglish?
Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.

Sssshhhhh. They've allready started spraying green paint over the English signs in Splott. Must be the invading hordes from Pontcanna.

 

[niclas]

Nice party political broadcast.

Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.

Agreed. The point is to change the world, not just to pass resolutions to change it.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Agreed. The point is to change the world, not just to pass resolutions to change it.

Niclas gives a spirited defence of Plaid - but if this is what Plaid really stand for, it is odd that these are not the policies that they have chosen to highlight to the media? And these weren't policies that were highlighted by Ieuan Wyn Jones, the leader.

Plaid are hardly unequivocally anti-imperialist. Only a handful of your elected representatives deign to actively support the anti-war movement and Plaid's position on the occupation of Iraq is frankly crap. Plaid oppose an immediate withdrawal of troops and want a phased withdrawal with the UN taking over. Let me assure you Niclas that UN troops would have about as much credibility in Iraq as NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists? Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.

 

[Brockway]

But aren't you inglish?
Watch out. Brockway'll be torching yer shed.

I've been checking your ancestry llantwit and I've discovered some Anglo-Saxon imperialist blood so you'd better watch your step sunshine. Zog's already on my repatriation list for being a bit cheeky.

 

[niclas]

Niclas gives a spirited defence of Plaid - but if this is what Plaid really stand for, it is odd that these are not the policies that they have chosen to highlight to the media? And these weren't policies that were highlighted by Ieuan Wyn Jones, the leader.

Policy is what is passed democratically at conference. The speech was about highlighting the need to win back trust and such generalities.

Plaid are hardly unequivocally anti-imperialist. Only a handful of your elected representatives deign to actively support the anti-war movement and Plaid's position on the occupation of Iraq is frankly crap. Plaid oppose an immediate withdrawal of troops and want a phased withdrawal with the UN taking over. Let me assure you Niclas that UN troops would have about as much credibility in Iraq as NATO troops in Afghanistan.

We all know how well you treated one of Plaid's most prominent anti-war activists in Cardiff STW... don't lecture me about the war and who organised against it.

Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists? Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.

That hurts... coming from a Respectoid.

 

[lewislewis]

Which members of Plaid likely to be elected are revolutionary socialists? Personally, I find the idea that members of Plaid are revolutionary laughable.

George Galloway?

 

[lewislewis]

Your point is?

My point is you don't know what exact policies were decided, you'll only know what was in the media (until Nicdafis shared some points with us).

I still think Plaid is the most progressive political force in Wales.

 

[Ben Bore]

(until Nicdafis shared some points with us).

I don't think niclas is NicDafis (unless there's two of them)

 

[osterberg]

My point is you don't know what exact policies were decided, you'll only know what was in the media (until Nicdafis shared some points with us).

I still think Plaid is the most progressive political force in Wales.

I was not disputing what Niclas said about the conference.

A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )

I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.

 

[Karac]

I was not disputing what Niclas said about the conference.

A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )

I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.

I personally dont think Plaid is anywhere near becoming the next Assembly govt-tho i do think there will be a few gains.
Labours going to lose a few seats guaranteed-the Tories have probably peaked and the Lib-dems could go either way.
A Labour/Lib Dem coalition has to be the most likely scenario

 

[Karac]

. But Ireland is a low wage economy of gross equality and poverty. Plaid accept all the arguments of the free market, globalisation and the results of this.

Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!

Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?

 

[snadge]

Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!

Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?

I already pointed that out to him in post 2#, when he ignored it and spouted once more I gave up...

Eire has made previously agreed wage structures a priority, whenever new labour is taken on, unions are involved...

 

[lewislewis]

I don't think niclas is NicDafis (unless there's two of them)

Oops, i've confused two different posters on two different forums,
who have similar names and are both respected by myself.

 

[lewislewis]

I was not disputing what Niclas said about the conference.

A fine set of policies(the ones I read in Niclas' post that is )

I'll be interested to see if they'll be implemented if Plaid become the next assembly government.

If Plaid was part of a governing coalition, i'll wager some of those policies will come into play (if London allows it).

 

[lewislewis]

Ireland has a better living standard than the ffycing UK!!!!

Its not a low wage economy compared to Wales.
In fact Ireland has bloomed during its independence-why?
They make the most of EU subsidies,tax reliefs for companies -why doesnt Wales do the same?

It's ridiculous.

We could save the Burberry factory workers jobs in one easy swoop to make the company stay.

I've just been looking at some graphs about economy and such. It seems the European, typically social democratic countries have the smallest gaps between rich and poor than anywhere else in the West.

 

[neprimerimye]

I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)?

<snip>

Plaid's programme for the coming Assembly elections is radical reformist - like the WSA was and the CNWP and Respect are now. The difference is that Plaid will get people elected and some of them will be revolutionary socialists (and, no, I don't just mean Leanne).

Niclas the points you make are good one's but they leave me baffled as to the nature of Plaid Cymru. You tell us that it's program is 'radical reformist' but I can find no radical reforms in that program. You list a set of positions which Plaid has adopted but for the most part such positions as 'anti-imperialism' are abstract lacking in practical content. The only serious, if minor, reform i can discover in said program is for an increase in the minimum wage.

Furthermore you tell us that Plaid, in power, will seek to encourage the creation of jobs by granting businesses tax cuts in named areas. This may be a good policy for those areas, although I'm not fully convinced it is, and is certainly a good policy for the businesses in question but in no sense can such a policy be portaryed as a reform of any kind. n fact the granting of tax breaks to businesses is a pro-capitalist policy contrary to the interests of working people who must bear the burden of decreased state revenues.

To take your post at face vlaue then you would seem to be suggesting that revolutionary socialist members of Plaid Cymru would, if in power, subsidise big business. But surely revolutionary socialists fight for the destruction of the bourgeois state and big business and are not concerned with administering the state to the benefit of big business?

 

[neprimerimye]

Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions.

Marx wrote nothing of the kind. His position was that the exploitation of the working clas would lead to the progressive immiseration of that class. In 2006 only a fool would understand that conception to refer to the absolute immiseration of the exploited. Rather it should be taken as a reference to the ever higher rate of exploitation of the working class.

 

[phildwyer]

Marx wrote nothing of the kind. His position was that the exploitation of the working clas would lead to the progressive immiseration of that class. In 2006 only a fool would understand that conception to refer to the absolute immiseration of the exploited. Rather it should be taken as a reference to the ever higher rate of exploitation of the working class.

And of course to psychological alienation. BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.

 

[neprimerimye]

And of course to psychological alienation. BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.

Plaid Cymru can more easily drop nationalism than the language issue.

Indeed given that Plaid is in favour of remaining within the imperialist cartel that is the EU it could be argued that they have already dropped the demand for an independent national state.

One cannot but wonder whether the so called revolutionary socialists within Plaid are in favour of remaining within the EU.

 

[rhys gethin]

And of course to psychological alienation. BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.

I had wondered what you'd been doing to offend so many people. I see that the problem is writing bullshit. Give it up!

You mean the Newlabour-type 'power' to administer the same old squalor? There are very good class objections to adopting that plan, but to go for Anglo-chauvinist grovelling as well, no, I don't think so.

 

[lewislewis]

n fact the granting of tax breaks to businesses is a pro-capitalist policy contrary to the interests of working people who must bear the burden of decreased state revenues.

In all cases where the business tax cut has been used strategically, state revenues have ended up being increased. Adam Price thoroughly researched and checked it to make sure.

The key taxation principle behind parties like Plaid, the SNP et al is actually to increase taxation in general (e.g Plaid's policy of 50% or maybe 75% top rate income tax) if it guarantees an improved performance by the state.
Cutting corporation tax is a (very clever) strategic economic policy to create jobs in impoverished parts of Wales. The economic growth in those areas can then be taxed normally and if Norway & Ireland's corporation tax cuts are anything to go by, state revenue will end up being more than before within 5 years or so.

 

[Ben Bore]

And of course to psychological alienation. BTW Plaid's stance on big buisness is practically irrelevant, for they will never stand a chance at power until they drop the language issue.

Shit, those sneaky bastards trying to blind us with a proposal to reform company tax (in the hope of encouraging businesses big and small to set up in Wales and stay), and thinking we'd not notice that their other policies include forcing everyone at gunpoint to speak Welsh.

Sneaky, very sneaky

 

[neprimerimye]

In all cases where the business tax cut has been used strategically, state revenues have ended up being increased. Adam Price thoroughly researched and checked it to make sure.

The key taxation principle behind parties like Plaid, the SNP et al is actually to increase taxation in general (e.g Plaid's policy of 50% or maybe 75% top rate income tax) if it guarantees an improved performance by the state.
Cutting corporation tax is a (very clever) strategic economic policy to create jobs in impoverished parts of Wales. The economic growth in those areas can then be taxed normally and if Norway & Ireland's corporation tax cuts are anything to go by, state revenue will end up being more than before within 5 years or so.

The problem is that your model simply doesn't work as it is based on the constant expansion of the economy. Now IF the economy is expaning and IF you can attract large quantities of new capital then you may increase state revenues that is true.

But in the real world the economy does not constantly expand and is subject to periods of recession and even slump. In addition to which if the trick works as well as you suggest then other countries will follow suit and offer similar tax breaks at which point the tax breaks Wales might offer would have no competitive advantage.

Moreover even alowing that the trick might work there is absolutely no guarantee that increased state revenues would be used to the advantage of the working people. The best then that might be expected if the tax cuts worked is a series of low paying isecure low tech jobs that could be easily shifted to another country.

What is for certain is that there is nothing socialist, leave alone revolutionary, about such pro-imperialist measures.

 

[lewislewis]

The problem is that your model simply doesn't work as it is based on the constant expansion of the economy. Now IF the economy is expaning and IF you can attract large quantities of new capital then you may increase state revenues that is true.

But in the real world the economy does not constantly expand and is subject to periods of recession and even slump. In addition to which if the trick works as well as you suggest then other countries will follow suit and offer similar tax breaks at which point the tax breaks Wales might offer would have no competitive advantage.

Moreover even alowing that the trick might work there is absolutely no guarantee that increased state revenues would be used to the advantage of the working people. The best then that might be expected if the tax cuts worked is a series of low paying isecure low tech jobs that could be easily shifted to another country.

What is for certain is that there is nothing socialist, leave alone revolutionary, about such pro-imperialist measures.

I'm not outlining a one-size economic solution to Wales' problems.

I just pointed 1 single policy of lowering corporation tax to get businesses to set up and stay.
The policy has not yet failed to work. I am confident that the correct research and feasability study would be applied by Wales' financial community (i.e the capitalist bloodsuckers).

A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.
We are not talking about low-paid insecure jobs, we're talking about an alternative to unemployment and to heroin being the biggest industry in the valleys.

 

[neprimerimye]

I just pointed 1 single policy of lowering corporation tax to get businesses to set up and stay.
The policy has not yet failed to work. I am confident that the correct research and feasability study would be applied by Wales' financial community (i.e the capitalist bloodsuckers).

A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.
We are not talking about low-paid insecure jobs, we're talking about an alternative to unemployment and to heroin being the biggest industry in the valleys.

Capitalism is a competitive system in which each and every country and enterprise exists in a state of constant hostility with all other countries and enterprises. One exprerssion of this competition is the constant seeking after advantages. The provision of tax breaks would be such an advantage for those companies benefitting from them.

It follows that those countries providing such benefits to the rapacious companies that will receive them will in turn have an advantage in the market. However as more and more countries follow suit the advantage which those adopting this policy once had will dissappear as their competitors adopt the self same policy thereby negating the advantage for all concerned.

Moreover such a policy to be of advantage to a country operating it cannot be operated in isolation to toher policies. Thus tax breaks for multinationals worked very well for that country in part because of increased investment in that countrys educational system in earlier years and the davabntages of being a relatively low wage economy in which the entire workforce speaks English. Advantages which Plaid cannot replicate with its educational and language policies.

It is naive in the extreme to believe that tax breaks which have helped boost the economies of some few countries can be equally beneficial if adopted by their competitors. It is however even more naive to claim that Plaid Cymru if it were ever to hold state power would distribute extra state income equitably simply because a majority of the population of Wales are working class. I note that where Plaid Cymru has been in power in local councils it has had no compunction to operate the same pro-boss financial regimen as the Labour Party.