Plaid say "don't tax big business!"

[llantwit]

A Plaid government would be certain to use the resulting state revenues for the advantage of working class people, because the vast majority of people in Wales are working class people.

What kind of argument is that? The working class are the majority in every country, surely.

 

[lewislewis]

What kind of argument is that? The working class are the majority in every country, surely.

Exactly, so I don't see how spending tax revenue will not benefit the working classes.

 

[lewislewis]

Capitalism is a competitive system in which each and every country and enterprise exists in a state of constant hostility with all other countries and enterprises. One exprerssion of this competition is the constant seeking after advantages. The provision of tax breaks would be such an advantage for those companies benefitting from them.

It follows that those countries providing such benefits to the rapacious companies that will receive them will in turn have an advantage in the market. However as more and more countries follow suit the advantage which those adopting this policy once had will dissappear as their competitors adopt the self same policy thereby negating the advantage for all concerned.

Moreover such a policy to be of advantage to a country operating it cannot be operated in isolation to toher policies. Thus tax breaks for multinationals worked very well for that country in part because of increased investment in that countrys educational system in earlier years and the davabntages of being a relatively low wage economy in which the entire workforce speaks English. Advantages which Plaid cannot replicate with its educational and language policies.

It is naive in the extreme to believe that tax breaks which have helped boost the economies of some few countries can be equally beneficial if adopted by their competitors. It is however even more naive to claim that Plaid Cymru if it were ever to hold state power would distribute extra state income equitably simply because a majority of the population of Wales are working class. I note that where Plaid Cymru has been in power in local councils it has had no compunction to operate the same pro-boss financial regimen as the Labour Party.

Possibly but you seem to suggest that Wales' entire economy would be based around giving tax breaks to multi-nationals.
It is only one single policy that Plaid would only want to apply to two specific areas of Wales, to regenerate those areas in question. Economies in Europe aren't generally using this targeted policy.

Hang on, do you not think Wales has an English speaking, relatively low wage work force? It's lower wage then Ireland, England or Scotland : (

The state revenues, if Wales was run by a social democratic government (Plaid or similar), would benefit the people of Wales in general in building infrastructure, providing education and healthcare (for free- you shouldn't have to pay if you're already paying taxes). As far as local council goes, it is impossible to compare local groups of Plaid councillors (who are generally ordinary people, teachers, retired workers, workers) running councils to an active national government orchestrated by Plaid Cymru. It isn't what you're looking for because it does not accord to Marxist academia. However, I think it would create a country which would be better to live in than the current set up we have.

Possibly not equally beneficial (i'm not expecting Wales to turn into a European social democratic model overnight), but I think for the 2 poorest areas of Wales concerned, the policy would be beneficial. Lets have jobs being created rather than factories closing. Is that really such a bad thing?

 

[llantwit]

I think that Nep's main point is that the tax-cuts for business policy would end us up in the same place we're in now a bit further down the line, except that because of what few factories/businesses we have closing and relocating to follow the cheap labour they'd be closing to follow the bigger tax-cuts.
He's not an academic, btw.

 

[neprimerimye]

Possibly but you seem to suggest that Wales' entire economy would be based around giving tax breaks to multi-nationals.
It is only one single policy that Plaid would only want to apply to two specific areas of Wales, to regenerate those areas in question. Economies in Europe aren't generally using this targeted policy.

Hang on, do you not think Wales has an English speaking, relatively low wage work force? It's lower wage then Ireland, England or Scotland : (

The state revenues, if Wales was run by a social democratic government (Plaid or similar), would benefit the people of Wales in general in building infrastructure, providing education and healthcare (for free- you shouldn't have to pay if you're already paying taxes). As far as local council goes, it is impossible to compare local groups of Plaid councillors (who are generally ordinary people, teachers, retired workers, workers) running councils to an active national government orchestrated by Plaid Cymru. It isn't what you're looking for because it does not accord to Marxist academia. However, I think it would create a country which would be better to live in than the current set up we have.

Possibly not equally beneficial (i'm not expecting Wales to turn into a European social democratic model overnight), but I think for the 2 poorest areas of Wales concerned, the policy would be beneficial. Lets have jobs being created rather than factories closing. Is that really such a bad thing?

There is nothing in my post to suggest that I believe that any economic policy instituted by a Plaid Cymru govt would be based on the one policy you have discussed. It makes no odds however whether that policy were applied to the whole of Wales or specific regions in regard to its economic effectiveness as a pump primer which is its intended purpose.

That it can be of limited impact with regard to individual regions i do not dispute. But as you point out it is a policy already in place in various conutries and as such the point remains that as such it cannot confer an economic advantage if alrady in use throughout wide swathes of Europe. At best it can confer some advantage for specific regions and as such it must also confer some disadvatage for other regions. Snakes and ladders in other words.

Now it is certainly true that Wales has a low wage economy and is English speaking to boot. But the policy of tax breaks for super rich companies is, if I understand you correctly, advocated for regions in which Welsh is at least in part the more wodely spoken and is advocated by a party which is most asidous in its eforts to encourage the speaking of Welsh in part through development of the Welsh medium sector in education. Which I note is a very different policy to that of other Euopean countries which have sought to encourage the populace to learn second langauges which might give an advantage in commerce. Which cannot be true of Welsh.

With regard to your defense of the reationary policies followed by Plaids local councillors it is no defense at all. The members of Plaid are policial activists just as are those of their number who function as professional politicians by virtue of being elected representatives in Westminster or Cardiff Bay and are to be judged accordingly. Indeed if the local councillors are so weak, by virtue yo tell us of being 'ordinary people', to kowtow to reactionary policies when in office why do the members of Plaid select them? Why not select the revolutionary socialists in Plaid we were told of earlier inthis thread?

 

[neprimerimye]

He's not an academic, btw.

Ain't even got a degree mate.

 

[Ben Bore]

Now it is certainly true that Wales has a low wage economy and is English speaking to boot. But the policy of tax breaks for super rich companies is, if I understand you correctly, advocated for regions in which Welsh is at least in part the more wodely spoken and is advocated by a party which is most asidous in its eforts to encourage the speaking of Welsh in part through development of the Welsh medium sector in education. Which I note is a very different policy to that of other Euopean countries which have sought to encourage the populace to learn second langauges which might give an advantage in commerce. Which cannot be true of Welsh.

Not that I think that langugae has anything to do with it, but the Basque Country and Catalunia are the two most prosperous 'regions' in Spain, and they encourage the populace to learn a second langugae much more asidously (whatever that means) than here in Wales.

 

[neprimerimye]

Not that I think that langugae has anything to do with it, but the Basque Country and Catalunia are the two most prosperous 'regions' in Spain, and they encourage the populace to learn a second langugae much more asidously (whatever that means) than here in Wales.

Quite right langauge had nothing to do with the economic development of Catalunya and Euskadi. Imperialism did however.

Both developing as a result of the imperialist policies of Britain and not as a result of the economic policies of the Spanish government. Having achieved a level of economic develoment surpassing that of much of Spain they have maintained that lead but not as a result of the policies of the central state. In spite of them perhaps.

The role of a second language speaks, as it were, to the internationalised nature of the economy. Specifically in relation to the role that capital from non-British EU states has played in the development of the Celtic Tiger where the possession of a second language by sections of the workforce has had a major role in the investment of such capital. Ireland after all was one of the examples given as to how tax breaks for TNCs could benefit the people of Wales i note.

 

[lewislewis]

Quite right langauge had nothing to do with the economic development of Catalunya and Euskadi. Imperialism did however.

Both developing as a result of the imperialist policies of Britain and not as a result of the economic policies of the Spanish government. Having achieved a level of economic develoment surpassing that of much of Spain they have maintained that lead but not as a result of the policies of the central state. In spite of them perhaps.

The role of a second language speaks, as it were, to the internationalised nature of the economy. Specifically in relation to the role that capital from non-British EU states has played in the development of the Celtic Tiger where the possession of a second language by sections of the workforce has had a major role in the investment of such capital. Ireland after all was one of the examples given as to how tax breaks for TNCs could benefit the people of Wales i note.

Regarding languages, perhaps Ben means the Basque and Catalan languages, rather than languages that would be economically useful. Proves that countries can have language development for reasons that aren't economic. Which will be the same with Wales.

 

[lewislewis]

There is nothing in my post to suggest that I believe that any economic policy instituted by a Plaid Cymru govt would be based on the one policy you have discussed. It makes no odds however whether that policy were applied to the whole of Wales or specific regions in regard to its economic effectiveness as a pump primer which is its intended purpose.

That it can be of limited impact with regard to individual regions i do not dispute. But as you point out it is a policy already in place in various conutries and as such the point remains that as such it cannot confer an economic advantage if alrady in use throughout wide swathes of Europe. At best it can confer some advantage for specific regions and as such it must also confer some disadvatage for other regions. Snakes and ladders in other words.

Now it is certainly true that Wales has a low wage economy and is English speaking to boot. But the policy of tax breaks for super rich companies is, if I understand you correctly, advocated for regions in which Welsh is at least in part the more wodely spoken and is advocated by a party which is most asidous in its eforts to encourage the speaking of Welsh in part through development of the Welsh medium sector in education. Which I note is a very different policy to that of other Euopean countries which have sought to encourage the populace to learn second langauges which might give an advantage in commerce. Which cannot be true of Welsh.

With regard to your defense of the reationary policies followed by Plaids local councillors it is no defense at all. The members of Plaid are policial activists just as are those of their number who function as professional politicians by virtue of being elected representatives in Westminster or Cardiff Bay and are to be judged accordingly. Indeed if the local councillors are so weak, by virtue yo tell us of being 'ordinary people', to kowtow to reactionary policies when in office why do the members of Plaid select them? Why not select the revolutionary socialists in Plaid we were told of earlier inthis thread?

The policy wouldn't disadvantage other parts of Wales, most of Wales is economically developing, it's just the parts lagging behind we want to kickstart. At the same time, there must also be policies in place to help those who lose out from competition. In areas of social justice, pensions, minimum wage and housing Plaid would make a great impact (better than any other govt Wales has ever had).
It is a policy that has been used (not that widely), I could only find a handful of examples in Europe although tax breaks might be carried out elsewhere for other reasons. It certainly isn't in use throughout wide swathes of Europe, and if packaged with other incentives will boost those 2 areas of Wales.

Language does not come into it. Your take on the policy seems now to hint that, we're doing it to provide jobs in Welsh-speaking areas. This isn't true. Apologies if i've gotten you wrong. Welsh language has no relevance whatsoever to this single economic policy.

Finally, I think Plaid councillors do the best possible job out of all the parties in Wales that have had councillors elected. Their local govt policies are the most agreeable to me, although it's limited how much ideology we can actually implement at that level. That is my defence of them.

 

[neprimerimye]

Regarding languages, perhaps Ben means the Basque and Catalan languages, rather than languages that would be economically useful. Proves that countries can have language development for reasons that aren't economic. Which will be the same with Wales.

Like it or not all linguistic changes in this epoch cannot be other than connected with economic policies. But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness or otherwise of the tax breaks which Plaid Cymru proposes to gift the multinationals with.

 

[neprimerimye]

The policy wouldn't disadvantage other parts of Wales, most of Wales is economically developing, it's just the parts lagging behind we want to kickstart. At the same time, there must also be policies in place to help those who lose out from competition. In areas of social justice, pensions, minimum wage and housing Plaid would make a great impact (better than any other govt Wales has ever had).
It is a policy that has been used (not that widely), I could only find a handful of examples in Europe although tax breaks might be carried out elsewhere for other reasons. It certainly isn't in use throughout wide swathes of Europe, and if packaged with other incentives will boost those 2 areas of Wales.

Language does not come into it. Your take on the policy seems now to hint that, we're doing it to provide jobs in Welsh-speaking areas. This isn't true. Apologies if i've gotten you wrong. Welsh language has no relevance whatsoever to this single economic policy.

Finally, I think Plaid councillors do the best possible job out of all the parties in Wales that have had councillors elected. Their local govt policies are the most agreeable to me, although it's limited how much ideology we can actually implement at that level. That is my defence of them.

There is no suggestion on my part that by granting tax breaks to multimillionaires in return for some pitifully small investments in say Carmarthenshire that Cardiff would be thereby disadvantaged. the point is that such tax breaks will not guarantee investments given that Wales is not and cannot be unique in granting them to the super rich. In whch case it is not just Cardiff that Carmarthen would be competing with but towns and cities in Poland, Bulgaria and Roumania, etc. All other factors being equal who do you think will win in such a copetition to the bottom?

Now you say that it is a policy that has not been widely used in other parts of Europe. That is true but you do not say why. Ibn fact it is a policy that is not used and cannot be used by any government within the EU, whether Uk or an independent Wales is irrelevant, because the policy itself is deemed to breach all kinds of agreements as to competition within the EU. in short it is illegal and unless Plaid were to take Wales out of the EU it will remain illegal even under a Plaid administration. Although I further note that Plaid is actually in favour of the EU which makes any promise to grant tax cuts to MNC's a hollow lie.

Quite we agree that in itself langauge is not relevant to the efficacy of this single policy. Although it is worth noting that where this policy was succesfully used in the Irish free State, prior to accesion to the EU and current regulations rendering the policy defunct, the ability of the irish boss class to provide a workforce that had linguistic abilities rare in Wales was a factor in the policies temporary success.

Your defence of Plaid local councilors, that they are no more crap than any others, is pitiful. Certainly councillors have very few real powers these days but perhaps they might use their access to the media to actually point this fact of political life out to the populace? Or are they more comfortable accepting the largesse oof the state and bickering about how to implement cuts?

 

[lewislewis]

There is no suggestion on my part that by granting tax breaks to multimillionaires in return for some pitifully small investments in say Carmarthenshire that Cardiff would be thereby disadvantaged. the point is that such tax breaks will not guarantee investments given that Wales is not and cannot be unique in granting them to the super rich. In whch case it is not just Cardiff that Carmarthen would be competing with but towns and cities in Poland, Bulgaria and Roumania, etc. All other factors being equal who do you think will win in such a copetition to the bottom?

Now you say that it is a policy that has not been widely used in other parts of Europe. That is true but you do not say why. Ibn fact it is a policy that is not used and cannot be used by any government within the EU, whether Uk or an independent Wales is irrelevant, because the policy itself is deemed to breach all kinds of agreements as to competition within the EU. in short it is illegal and unless Plaid were to take Wales out of the EU it will remain illegal even under a Plaid administration. Although I further note that Plaid is actually in favour of the EU which makes any promise to grant tax cuts to MNC's a hollow lie.

Quite we agree that in itself langauge is not relevant to the efficacy of this single policy. Although it is worth noting that where this policy was succesfully used in the Irish free State, prior to accesion to the EU and current regulations rendering the policy defunct, the ability of the irish boss class to provide a workforce that had linguistic abilities rare in Wales was a factor in the policies temporary success.

Your defence of Plaid local councilors, that they are no more crap than any others, is pitiful. Certainly councillors have very few real powers these days but perhaps they might use their access to the media to actually point this fact of political life out to the populace? Or are they more comfortable accepting the largesse oof the state and bickering about how to implement cuts?

I'm not sure on the technicalities of it but I don't think any areas would be seriously disadvantaged. IF there was any disadvantage, it would perhaps even things out and close the regional disparity. But I don't think more prosperous parts of Wales that are already economically growing would lose out at all.
Competition with those countries depends on what services Wales offers, we still have an English-speaking, well educated workforce so for innovative things we'll do well.

Countries in the EU have already used this policy. Any country can lower corporation tax whenever it wants.

Plaid councillors overall do a great job thank you very much, we're always working with hands tied behind backs and on pitiful revenues.

 

[neprimerimye]

I'm not sure on the technicalities of it but I don't think any areas would be seriously disadvantaged. IF there was any disadvantage, it would perhaps even things out and close the regional disparity. But I don't think more prosperous parts of Wales that are already economically growing would lose out at all.
Competition with those countries depends on what services Wales offers, we still have an English-speaking, well educated workforce so for innovative things we'll do well.

Countries in the EU have already used this policy. Any country can lower corporation tax whenever it wants.

Plaid councillors overall do a great job thank you very much, we're always working with hands tied behind backs and on pitiful revenues.

Head in sand. Convergence.

 

[kate44]

i would like to big up adam price the plaid MP for caerfyrddin-(east) who started a campaign to impeach MR. ANTHONY BLAIR some time ago

 

[neprimerimye]

i would like to big up adam price the plaid MP for caerfyrddin-(east) who started a campaign to impeach MR. ANTHONY BLAIR some time ago

Such a tactic being an effective method of demobilising the anti-war movement as it places the emphasis on parliamentary action. In other words it is a tactic that is opposed to the oly method of combating imperialist war namely workers struggle.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Such a tactic being an effective method of demobilising the anti-war movement as it places the emphasis on parliamentary action. In other words it is a tactic that is opposed to the oly method of combating imperialist war namely workers struggle.

I have to disagree with you. Surely, you don't oppose Military Families against the War trying to get support in the courts for a public inquiry into the case for going to war? I think that if Blair was impeached it would surely be a victory for the anti-war movement, but if we are brutally honest the campaign has been failure, there is no chance of Blair being impeached. The supporters of the campaign could have used it as a good publicity stunt to publicise Blair's war crimes - in a similar manner to the Russell-Sartre International War Crimes Tribunal, but it looks like Adam Price MP was more locked into the game of trying to get support from other politicians rather than building mass public meeetings across the UK.

Niclas is a joker when he claims that Plaid are anti-imperialist. They seriously wobbled over opposing the occupation of Iraq. In the 2003 Assembly elections they took the safe option of "don't mention the war", because their had recently been a surge of support in the early weeks of the occupation. This is quite typical of reformist parties who are prepared to sell out an occupied people if it will gain them votes.

I remember an article in 2003/4 in Heddwch (magazine of CND Cymru) where the deputy leader of Plaid, Jill Evans MEP wrote: "we can't just walk away". A slightly stupid statement as the imperialist occupiers of that country have no intention of walking away until they set-up a pro-western client state that will let them fleece the natural resources of Iraq or are driven out by the resistance.

But more fundamentally, Plaid's position of the occupation of Iraq is fundamentally misguided and blatantly not anti-imperialist. They don't call for all foreign troops to leave Iraq, they actually call for foreign troops to be sent to Iraq!

Plaid want to pull out US/UK troops and replace them with Muslim troops. They seem to forget that the Americans have already used Muslim Iraqi troops to massacre and crush uprisings in Fallujah, Mosul and elsewhere.

Leaving aside, the question of whether any Muslim country would want to send troops to Iraq. Where would these Muslim troops come from? Iran, Syria, Lebanon or Palestine? Of course not, these countries are not client-states of the US. The US would insist that they came from the regimes that they prop-up. I'm sure that Muslim Turkey would love to send troops into Iraqi Kurdistan!

Plaid also now talk of neutral UN troops. It is clear that things have moved beyond the stage where changing the colour of the helmets would help things and I can guarantee that the UN will have as much success in Iraq as NATO in Afghanistan.

Imagine a situation where the US was being forced to withdraw, how would they continue to dominate Iraq? They would go for the UN figleaf. American troops are getting seriously bogged down in Iraq, they might well soon hope to be bailed out by UN troops. The idea that UN troops in Iraq would be independent of the foreign-policy objectives of the United States is naive.

Plaid's support of a UN occupation also fails to look at the evidence of other countries where the UN have stepped in, such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti

In Kosovo, Imperialist Viceroy, Paddy Ashdown is a dictator who can sack democratically elected governments and there have been demonstrations against the UN. In Kosovo, under the UN dictatorship, UN forces and their paid surrogates have been running a mini-Guantanamo. In the Congo, UN troops are involved in sex-trafficking. In a country like Iraq where nationalist sentiment is far higher, a UN occupation would prolong the agony of the Iraqi people.

 

[niclas]

Adam Price leads a v high-profile campaign to impeach Blair and yet Plaid is accused of playing down its anti-war stance. Yeah, sure.

This posturing about "we're considerably more anti-imperialist than you" would be funny if we weren't dealing with such a serious subject. I remember Respect trying to score points in the last election about how immediate the withdrawal should be. Unless you were calling for UK troops out in an instant "beam me up Scotty" sense, you were a sell out.

I await the next instalment of "Plaid to blame for Congolese rapists" with interest.

 

[snadge]

jesus wept, this thread has become so derailed it's like the teletubbies against big business.

My observations still haven't been addressed.

Giving tax concessions to business should come with proviso's, ie follow the Eire model.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

This posturing about "we're considerably more anti-imperialist than you" would be funny if we weren't dealing with such a serious subject. I remember Respect trying to score points in the last election about how immediate the withdrawal should be. Unless you were calling for UK troops out in an instant "beam me up Scotty" sense, you were a sell out.

I await the next instalment of "Plaid to blame for Congolese rapists" with interest.

Niclas avoids answering a serious point. Respect and the anti-imperialist wing of the anti-war movement stand for the removal of all foreign troops from Iraq, and an end to foreign intervention in Iraq - because the people who have brutalised Iraq cannot be part of the solution. The withdrawal of British troops is not particularly science-fictional as Niclas claims - the Spanish government withdrew their troops in 6 weeks. Compare this with the Italian government who support Plaid's option of a "phased withdrawal". They are withdrawing their troops over a 12 month period from Iraq (to be sent to Afghanistan) and arranging for American/British troops to take-over their posts.

Plaid (including "left wingers") have consistently argued that the UN should take over from Iraq, they have also argued for the replacement of coalition troops with Muslim troops/UN troops - I have already explained why this proposal is bullshit and would in effect prolong the agony of the Iraqi people, because UN involvement in Iraq would just be another face for Western interference and dominance of that country.

You can't be anti-imperialist and support the thieves kitchen that is the UN.
Plaid's UN option panders to the racist view that Iraqis are not capable of self-determination.

I have heard Adam Price MP speak on the war several times, what is notable is that he always only talks about the lies in the run-up to the war and has little to say about what to do now - this is a cop-out.

Plaid also wobbled over whether to oppose military intervention in Afghanistan too, though commendably they did, somewhat later than the Welsh Socialist Alliance, eventually come out against the war. But were they absolutely opposed to military intervention - take a look at this interview with the leader of Plaid in the House of Commons on the eve of the Afghan War. No analysis of the war within the context of the opening up of a huge swathe of resource-rich territory with the collapse of the USSR between the caspian sea and balkans, no mention of the Project for the New American Century, no mention of imperialism, instead the suggestion that maybe possible military intervention should be linked to a peace plan!!!???

Is this the voice of one of Plaid's anti-imperialists?

I think if there is firm evidence about who perpetrated these crimes and groups can be pinpointed without any risk of killing innocent people, then I can fully understand the need to attack.

Any retaliation action would be carried out by the US and NATO.

And whatever military action will be taken will have to be proportionate.

Any loss of innocent life will create a situation which could lead to large-scale war.

But this is clearly not legally a war because there are no states involved, as such, that are being held responsible as of yet. And who exactly are we going to attack?

'War momentum'

President Bush has called this a war and Mr Blair has declared a war on terrorism, but I think it is inappropriate to use that word.

With what they are saying at the moment, it does look like things are gaining momentum and heading for a war. I hope to God I am wrong.

Before British troops are used, any military action should be debated carefully in parliament.

President Bush has taken his time in announcing a course of action, and that is entirely appropriate because immediate war will not be helpful.

I just hope that his time lag does not disguise the fact that he has already made up his mind on what to do next.

The prime minister has given Mr Bush carte blanche support, but he wheeled back a little, when he said any retaliation must be based on firm evidence.

We must now open up all channels of communication to displaced Muslim communities and the Muslim world generally and ask ourselves if we are creating martyrs by imposing harsh sanctions on people in the Middle East region.

This is a very good opportunity to bring peace to the Middle East.

Hand-in-hand with any retaliation, we need to make efforts to rejuvenate the peace process.

Bringing that process back on track would help a lot.

 

[lewislewis]

That was the eve of the Afghan war...key point.

Um Udo where is Plaid consistently calling for UN or 'Muslim' troops to go in?

If somebody needs to preside over security in Iraq, it will have to be the Iraqis. However there will obviously be a humanitarian role for the UN to play.

I don't know what you're trying to achieve. Plaid Cymru opposed the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq and supported both anti-war movements. Plaid also opposed the first Gulf War.
What are you talking about when you suggest 'Muslim troops' or Plaid demanding an immediate UN invasion of Iraq?

 

[lewislewis]

Plaid's UN option panders to the racist view that Iraqis are not capable of self-determination.

You are hilarious. Plaid Cymru is the party of Welsh self-determination...

 

[nwnm]

not since it accepted the 'Wales in Europe' strategy. Wot get a Welsh parliament only to secede power to the European one?

 

[Karac]

not since it accepted the 'Wales in Europe' strategy. Wot get a Welsh parliament only to secede power to the European one?

At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.

No. But the EU are in the game of trying to force countries that are part of them to implement neo-liberal measures. To join the Euro, you have to sign up to neo-liberal measures, the European Constitution similarly contained clauses which bound signatories to restructuring their economies on neo-liberal measures. Anyway, for us socialist's capitalism is outdated too!

Where did Plaid stand on the Euro & the European Constitution? It fully supports them.

Across Europe, alliances of the trade union movement, socialists, communists, left wing members of social democrat parties etc. forced the defeat of the European Constitution. In Wales, Plaid would be fighting against the left to support it!

 

[Udo Erasmus]

That was the eve of the Afghan war...key point.

Um Udo where is Plaid consistently calling for UN or 'Muslim' troops to go in?

If somebody needs to preside over security in Iraq, it will have to be the Iraqis. However there will obviously be a humanitarian role for the UN to play.

Lewislewis, you must be aware that Plaid policy is for Coalition troops to be replaced with "peace-keepers", that is to say, the UN is not just to play a "humanitarian role" but also a "military role". Plaid call for the troops to be pulled out and replaced with different troops! This couldn't but be interpreted as evidence that they don't believe that Iraqis are capable of handling their own affairs. In a sense, the head of the British army has come out to the left of Plaid because he argues that foreign troops exacerbate the security problem in Iraq rather than solve it, whereas Plaid argue that foreign troops (albeit from "neutral" countries are needed to oversee security)

I have heard numerous Plaid members outline either the "muslim troop" option or the "neutral UN troops" if you just look up the archives of Western Mail/South Wales Echo you can find Jill Evans MEP, Leanne Wood AM, Bethan Jenkins, Adam Price MP (all considered to be on the left of the party) arguing this - it's no secret. I also at an election hustings heard Plaid candidate, Neil McEvoy carefully distance himself from speakers from RESPECT and the Socialist Party who were arguing for an immediate and unconditional withdrawal of ALL foreign troops from Iraq & argued for a phased withdrawal with troops from Muslim countries sent in.

To be fair, Plaid's oposition to the war has been more principled and consistent than the LibDems, and socialists can work with Plaid members, but they can hardly be considered to be anti-imperialist.

 

[nwnm]

At least they dont wear wigs and pledge allegiance to some outdated Saxon feudocracy.

Thats why all bar one of Plaid's AM's were present inside the new Assembly building when Queenie came to open it then..... I don't know if any of them wear toupes though

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Thats why all bar one of Plaid's AM's were present inside the new Assembly building when Queenie came to open it then..... I don't know if any of them wear toupes though

Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid? The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly. There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.

 

[rhys gethin]

Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid? The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly. There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.

And hardly any MPs either? There are, obviously, all sorts of questions to be asked about 'compromising with the system' or being 'purist' in opposition - but it does seem to me that they are rather silly ones at the moment. The questions is, what can WE do NOW? Stop being self-righteous might be a start, in my view.

 

[niclas]

Does Niclas claim Lord Dafydd Ellis Thomas as one of the revolutionary socialists in Plaid? The former "marxist" leader of Plaid now presiding officer of the Assembly. There are no aristocrats in my organisation, and we have no seats in the House of Lords.

The good Lord has been a semi-detached member of Plaid (and possibly the human race) for some years now... no, he's not one of the socialists in Plaid.

Which organisation are you referring to Udo, SWP or Respect?