Plaid say "don't tax big business!"

[Udo Erasmus]

In the days of Old Labour, Denis Healy was even heard once to say that Labour would "tax the rich until the pips squeak" - something they didn't actually do.

Socialists have always stood for taxing the rich not the poor yet now Plaid once again reaffirm that they want to cut taxes for big business:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...d-stimulate-boom-in-poor-areas-name_page.html

This is further evidence that Plaid far from being an alternative to new Labour offer the same solutions with a nationalist twist - a low wage economy with generous handouts to multinationals.

Adam Price MP justifies this with reference to the Irish Celtic Tiger economy which most of Plaid elected representatives hold out as their model. But Ireland is a low wage economy of gross equality and poverty. Plaid accept all the arguments of the free market, globalisation and the results of this.

What is the difference between Plaid and Labour?

 

[snadge]

This is further evidence that Plaid far from being an alternative to new Labour offer the same solutions with a nationalist twist - a low wage economy with generous handouts to multinationals.

Erm, I don't think so.


Eire has been a champion to address wage cutting by adhering to previously agreed wage structures.

 

[meurig]

Ardderchog. Mae alla i cefnogi Plaid yn wir nawr.

 

[Brockway]

In the days of Old Labour, Denis Healy was even heard once to say that Labour would "tax the rich until the pips squeak" - something they didn't actually do.

Socialists have always stood for taxing the rich not the poor yet now Plaid once again reaffirm that they want to cut taxes for big business:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...d-stimulate-boom-in-poor-areas-name_page.html

This is further evidence that Plaid far from being an alternative to new Labour offer the same solutions with a nationalist twist - a low wage economy with generous handouts to multinationals.

Adam Price MP justifies this with reference to the Irish Celtic Tiger economy which most of Plaid elected representatives hold out as their model. But Ireland is a low wage economy of gross equality and poverty. Plaid accept all the arguments of the free market, globalisation and the results of this.

What is the difference between Plaid and Labour?

....so if you don't think we should support Labour or Plaid who do you suggest we lend our political support to?

 

[osterberg]

....so if you don't think we should support Labour or Plaid who do you suggest we lend our political support to?

Hmm..I wonder?
http://www.respectcoalition.org/

 

[Ben Bore]

I haven't read the proposals in detail yet, but personally I'd rather see businesses (of whatever size) paying less business tax as opposed to giving them a huge grant and see them piss off after around 5 years.

Whether or not your a fan of big business (i'm not), they play a huge part in the economy, everyone can't start their own business ar work for the public sector.

 

[lewislewis]

Udo, currently in terms of the social condition of Wales' poorest areas (which the article mentions- the tax cut would be for companies in Wales' poorest areas), most people would rather a well-paid job than to be unemployed.

This might not fit into your politics but it's true really. The interests of big business are obviously not to help others, they are to make money, but if we can get a job from it then it'll help people who want to work but don't really have the opportunity to do so.

I guess you see the Lebanon as a more important issue?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I haven't read the proposals in detail yet, but personally I'd rather see businesses (of whatever size) paying less business tax as opposed to giving them a huge grant and see them piss off after around 5 years.

Whether or not your a fan of big business (i'm not), they play a huge part in the economy, everyone can't start their own business ar work for the public sector.

Lewislewis your comment is somewhat Blairite - "we have to engage with the market". Isn't it odd that Old Labour were prepared to sometimes take on Big business but Plaid courts it. And why was the main focus of the coverage of Plaid conference on cutting taxes for the wealthy not on policies that help the poor and needy? Why are Plaid not calling for the taking of the commanding heights of the economy into public ownership, Scrapping anti-trade union laws, building more council houses, free education, decent pensions etc. etc.
I'm sure they support some of these things, but odd that Ieuan Wyn Jones sounded more like a New Labour minister in 1997 than Old Labour. Essentially Plaid unlike the rest of the left have made their peace with the neo-liberal consensus

The trouble with Plaid's courting of big business is that under their scheme they let big business set the terms. For example, is it better to have a job where you are unionised, paid decent wages etc than to have a McJob.

1) Why do Plaid hold out the Irish Celtic Tiger essentially a boom built on neo-liberal attacks on workers as their model?
2) On all the footage from the Plaid conference you see very little socialism, even Old Labour reformist socialism, instead you hear essentially the same Blairite rhetoric. So how would Plaid differ in any substantial way from New Labour (who in opposition talked far more radically than Plaid do today?
3) The point is big business does piss off, to wherever they can find workers paid the lowest wages with the least rights. We need to challenge the idea that big business can do what it wants and start fighting for working people. If McDonalds wants to leave Wales then they can leave!
4) I'm a member of Respect and also a revolutionary socialist. But whatever party your coming from it is clear that the key thing is not electoral politics but socialists organising at the grassroots of society, because the only way to build an alternative to neo-liberalism is for workers to organise (perferably but not exclusively) as workers - "we are many, they are few". This is also important for another reason, because reformist politics is anti-democratic, whereas we need politics which empowers everybody, as Marx said "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself". This seems abstract, but 30 years ago there were organised networks of shop stewards and rank and file movements of politicised trade unionists. The anti-war movement involved thousands in politics, I think the key (but a long and hard process) is to take this politicisation into the workplace, but either way we shouldn't kid ourselves that an independent Wales with Plaid in power would be any different from the UK today with New Labour in power.
What is disappointing is when you hear people like Ieuan Whinge Jones speak and realise that he is probably to the right of Kinnock in the 80s.

 

[lewislewis]

Lewislewis your comment is somewhat Blairite - "we have to engage with the market". Isn't it odd that Old Labour were prepared to sometimes take on Big business but Plaid courts it. And why was the main focus of the coverage of Plaid conference on cutting taxes for the wealthy not on policies that help the poor and needy? Why are Plaid not calling for the taking of the commanding heights of the economy into public ownership, Scrapping anti-trade union laws, building more council houses, free education, decent pensions etc. etc.
I'm sure they support some of these things, but odd that Ieuan Wyn Jones sounded more like a New Labour minister in 1997 than Old Labour. Essentially Plaid unlike the rest of the left have made their peace with the neo-liberal consensus

The trouble with Plaid's courting of big business is that under their scheme they let big business set the terms. For example, is it better to have a job where you are unionised, paid decent wages etc than to have a McJob.

1) Why do Plaid hold out the Irish Celtic Tiger essentially a boom built on neo-liberal attacks on workers as their model?
2) On all the footage from the Plaid conference you see very little socialism, even Old Labour reformist socialism, instead you hear essentially the same Blairite rhetoric. So how would Plaid differ in any substantial way from New Labour (who in opposition talked far more radically than Plaid do today?
3) The point is big business does piss off, to wherever they can find workers paid the lowest wages with the least rights. We need to challenge the idea that big business can do what it wants and start fighting for working people. If McDonalds wants to leave Wales then they can leave!
4) I'm a member of Respect and also a revolutionary socialist. But whatever party your coming from it is clear that the key thing is not electoral politics but socialists organising at the grassroots of society, because the only way to build an alternative to neo-liberalism is for workers to organise (perferably but not exclusively) as workers - "we are many, they are few". This is also important for another reason, because reformist politics is anti-democratic, whereas we need politics which empowers everybody, as Marx said "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself". This seems abstract, but 30 years ago there were organised networks of shop stewards and rank and file movements of politicised trade unionists. The anti-war movement involved thousands in politics, I think the key (but a long and hard process) is to take this politicisation into the workplace, but either way we shouldn't kid ourselves that an independent Wales with Plaid in power would be any different from the UK today with New Labour in power.
What is disappointing is when you hear people like Ieuan Whinge Jones speak and realise that he is probably to the right of Kinnock in the 80s.

I have a job for a corporation but i'm unionised. Unashamedly, I get paid ridiculously well for the amount of work I do.
You won't see me advocating tax cuts for the rich, but neither am I calling for McDonalds to be nationalised (though other things could and should be). I don't see what the problem is, my friends who work there need the money.

Plaid Cymru calls for a higher minimum wage, free education, no privatisation in health care etc etc

Your other points
1) Wales is not Ireland and I can't see its unique conditions being recreated here (and they were extremely unique). The fact it happened shows that capitalist countries can be independent and still function, which is the current stage Wales is at. I would argue Wales is essentially a socialist country at heart, but at the same time most people aren't revolutionaries or particularly radical. We are realistic.

2) I don't care about Labour talking radically. They have had their chances in power. Wait and see what the Plaid people do in power, and if they disappoint and aren't socialist enough, they are the kind of people you can go up to in person and hold them to account about it. Plaid's membership doesn't set the conditions of the media coverage. Plaid's leadership might want the party to seem softer as a better chance of getting elected. Again, this is reality and I hope we will form the next Welsh government.

3) Udo, if all those companies did leave (and not all are as evil as McDonalds), unemployment would increase massively. Things would get harder for us. Why would we want to force investors away ? We'd have less income?

4) "I'm a member of Respect and also a revolutionary socialist." You will never really influence the outlook of the Welsh people then. This is condescending of me and I am sorry, but you are still very useful for certain campaigns and I do appreciate your value on the ground. I think Respect members are usually good in the community, but you won't ever change laws etc. So it's good that you are doing your thing. I used to follow you Udo but gave that up long ago. Most people don't want to organise exclusively as workers : (

For my part I think Wales with Plaid in power would have a totally different outlook than Wales/UK with New Labour. Based on the people that are influential in Plaid, I can say that maybe we could create a Wales where the Middle England (and it is mainly England) mentality doesn't exist in big enough size to have any impact on life. Most people in Wales see themselves as working class, and the political priorities of the Welsh nation would reflect that. They are supposed to reflect it now, in the sense that everything is to the left in Wales.
I also think that we could create a consciousness where money and status isn't the only thing valuable in life, in Wales our culture is still geared towards things like communities, inclusiveness, internationalism, patriotism, in some cases workers organisations, and in some cases independent religion.
Another point, in the smaller European countries the political and media establishments are alot easier to deal with, and from a revolutionary socialist point of view you wouldn't be oppressed as much.

 

[lewislewis]

Also Udo, Ireland isn't really a nightmare or bad place to live is it? When I visit there i'm quite impressed, I could easily hold down a good job there and university tuition is free. Also if I get a degree from Uni, Ireland has all kinds of good paying jobs for educated workers, and average income there is higher than the UK or Wales.
That said, I don't intend to become an immigrant to Ireland. I just think by governing themselves they've moved the country in the direction their population wants to go, rather than in a direction decided by London.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Also Udo, Ireland isn't really a nightmare or bad place to live is it? When I visit there i'm quite impressed, I could easily hold down a good job there and university tuition is free. Also if I get a degree from Uni, Ireland has all kinds of good paying jobs for educated workers, and average income there is higher than the UK or Wales.
That said, I don't intend to become an immigrant to Ireland. I just think by governing themselves they've moved the country in the direction their population wants to go, rather than in a direction decided by London.

Ireland became independent in slightly different circumstances than Wales would. The 1916 Easter Rising struck a blow against the British Empire and sped its demise - if Wales became independent it would be much the same as England.
I personally think that rule from Cardiff or rule from London would - while there might be minor improvements (or not) - be in substance much the same.
I agree that Ireland is a nice country, though many feel that it has become less so since the boom.
You are correct that tuition fees were abolished in Ireland - not because the government were nice, but because unlike here where the NUS is in the pocket of the Labour Party, students successfully campaigned against them.
But ultimately across the Western world living standards are being squeezed in a neoliberal offensive that began in the late 70s - social democratic governments face a choice, decisively standing up against neoliberalism or capitulating, and I see little concrete sign that Plaid offer any alternative to Labour except some rhetoric that Welsh businesses might be better than English busineses

 

[lewislewis]

We'll never agree then, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

If you think that they do offer an alternative, then do tell why?
My own opinion of Plaid is that they have some good people in them, just as Labour has a few good people in them, but I don't see any concrete difference except that in opposition Plaid position themselves (slightly) to the left of New Labour.
Would you agree with me that the policy statements coming out of the Plaid conference (as reported in the media) were a little uninspiring? I certainly was expecting something more robust.

 

[lewislewis]

I think the focus was not on policy but was on the new image of the party. This doesn't surprise me because usually media coverage of Plaid is all about the image rather than actual detail.

I'm sure there were some inspiring debates at the party, but the general consensus is that we aren't going to change direction in terms of principles, policies or ideology. Plaid is just changing the way in which it communicates that message.

I think Plaid is an alternative to any other party in Wales because they are the only party that still represents proper Welsh socialist values, and because i'm a nationalist I believe our country would be alot better off without the shackles of Westminster. With a self-governing, independent Wales we could have a new kind of politics which is maybe a bit different to the normal UK consensus, something a bit more innovative and ideological, less about management and utility and more about ideas, values, principles and history. We could make huge progress as a country, strengthen our inclusiveness of ethnic minorities, have Wales as a progressive European state.
It isn't revolutionary, but it's something I believe in and will work towards. I want Wales as a role model. I think in current UK politics people's human needs are neglected, it's all about cash. That's part of the cultural legacy of Thatcher. I want an atmosphere in which we can heal the legacy of Thatcherism. There is no possible way we can do that without governing ourselves.

 

[rhys gethin]

Udo - the point is that we are all stuck with living under capitalism until we can get rid of the bugger. The question is whether - and how - we can shift it. Plaid Cymru has more chance of being politically effective than Respect, just now anyway, and Cymru is a very different place from England. Neither is going to shift the system much, but Plaid Cymru has not yet produced the huge disgust New Labour has - and, fair play, even Welsh Labour isn't quite so stomach-heavingly vomitous. So why not let us get on and make our own mistakes, while you get on and make yours?

 

[Brockway]

4) Marx said "the emancipation of the working class is the act of the working class itself". This seems abstract, but 30 years ago there were organised networks of shop stewards and rank and file movements of politicised trade unionists. The anti-war movement involved thousands in politics, I think the key (but a long and hard process) is to take this politicisation into the workplace, but either way we shouldn't kid ourselves that an independent Wales with Plaid in power would be any different from the UK today with New Labour in power.
What is disappointing is when you hear people like Ieuan Whinge Jones speak and realise that he is probably to the right of Kinnock in the 80s.

Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions. Today we live in one of the richest countries on earth. Sure there are economic inequalities in our society but being poor in Britain in 2006 ain't as scary as it used to be. And you have to come to terms with the reality that the working-class LIKE capitalism. You do a dull but not dangerous job and you go to Majorca for 2 weeks; you buy some computer games; you get a flat-screen tv; you get Sky. This may come as a shock to you but people are quite happy with that. Working-class people don't want to sit around reading Karl Marx that's for sure.

The anti-war movement (if you're on about Iraq) has largely bypassed the working-class, it is a topic that has mostly engaged the chattering classes, middle-class liberals and of course the media. The media is the real opposition to New Labour and as they can't really attack them over the economy which is in good shape then Iraq has become the stick to beat them with. Honestly most people you want to "emancipate" couldn't give a fuck about Iraq.

 

[lewislewis]

I agree with the first part of what Brockway said.

On the second part, I think alot of working class peeps were against the war but didn't participate in the actual movement, and didn't necessarily change their vote over it. It seems to have blown over a bit now, but it has definitely changed things. The UK won't be going to war with ease again, that's for sure.

 

[osterberg]

Marx wrote that when the working-class had to endure deplorable and dangerous working conditions. Today we live in one of the richest countries on earth. Sure there are economic inequalities in our society but being poor in Britain in 2006 ain't as scary as it used to be. And you have to come to terms with the reality that the working-class LIKE capitalism. You do a dull but not dangerous job and you go to Majorca for 2 weeks; you buy some computer games; you get a flat-screen tv; you get Sky. This may come as a shock to you but people are quite happy with that. Working-class people don't want to sit around reading Karl Marx that's for sure.

The anti-war movement (if you're on about Iraq) has largely bypassed the working-class, it is a topic that has mostly engaged the chattering classes, middle-class liberals and of course the media. The media is the real opposition to New Labour and as they can't really attack them over the economy which is in good shape then Iraq has become the stick to beat them with. Honestly most people you want to "emancipate" couldn't give a fuck about Iraq.

I do see where you're coming from . Things seem to have improved , We've got all this stuff we can go out and buy.

That's all true but it doesn't necessarily mean the working class like capitalism.They,most of them, just don't see an alternative.

There's debt,unaffordable housing,low pay,hospital waiting lists , not being able to get an NHS dentist , your kids joining the army and being sent off to be an instrument of U.S foreign policy,the council not sorting out the damp in the bathroom , the council closing the local school , the company you work relocating abroad and making the staff redundant.And so it goes on.

The question is what the working class can do about it . And that doesn't mean sitting about all day reading Marx and doesn't mean Plaid or Respect AM's doing it for them (although any Respect AMs being elected isn't going to happen any time soon) .

Working class people have to fight back for themselves and that means in in their communities , participating in their communities , in campaigns , in elections and most of all in their workplace and trade unions ( if they've got one ) as that's where they have actual economic power if they realised it.

And working class socialists have to be part of the sort of activities and not just there to say 'vote for me I'll sort it all out'.

People who say that won't sort it all out. But they will provide tax cuts for businesses so those businesses can supply all those lovely low paid jobs.

By the way my job is dull but its potentially very dangerous . Dangerous jobs have not disappeared just cause the pits have closed.
And no,I can't afford a holiday in Majorca or a wide screen TV nor would I desire them .
I do buy computers games ( but usually second hand ).
I definitely don't get Sky but I do get freeview .

By the way I don't think Respect have a prayer at the assembly elections as Plaid and the Lib Dems tend to suck up the left of Labour vote . Of course that might change depending on Plaid's performance if they form the next assembly government.

As for the anti-war demos you'll find plenty of working class people on them.
After all most people have to work for a living and therefore are working class.
Military Families against the War were at last Saturday's demo in Manchester and they are definitely working class.As are the trade unionists on the march.There were many TU banners.

There is a good report on the demo here

I agree with lewis lewis when he says that the UK won't find it so easy to go to war again as a result of the demonstrations . At least possibly not on the same scale as the Iraq war.

By the way the above is all my own ramblings off the top of my head. It doesn't represent a Respect line or anything.
Please feel free to shoot it down in flames.

 

[osterberg]

Just than this list of Trade Union banners on the Manchester demo.

 

[Brockway]

Just than this list of Trade Union banners on the Manchester demo.

Yeah but Trade Union activists are politicos, they're not the council estates spontaneously rising up are they. And it's a day out.

 

[Brockway]

That's all true but it doesn't necessarily mean the working class like capitalism.They,most of them, just don't see an alternative.

No honestly they do like it. There's a basic human instinct for novelty for a start - if you give a child a grey toy and a toy that is brightly coloured and makes funny noises - it will play with the latter. Marxism is the grey toy, Capitalism is the sparkly one. Most working class people aren't against the capitalist sytem at all - they would love the opportunity themselves to be rich. They don't want an alternative they want a ticket in the lottery.

There's debt,unaffordable housing,low pay,hospital waiting lists , not being able to get an NHS dentist , your kids joining the army and being sent off to be an instrument of U.S foreign policy,the council not sorting out the damp in the bathroom , the council closing the local school , the company you work relocating abroad and making the staff redundant.And so it goes on.

People don't have to get into debt. There is low pay but you could educate yourself and get a better job. If you look hard enough you'll find an NHS dentist. You don't have to join the army. Some councils are good and some are crap. There's no real grinding poverty anymore.

The question is what the working class can do about it . And that doesn't mean sitting about all day reading Marx and doesn't mean Plaid or Respect AM's doing it for them (although any Respect AMs being elected isn't going to happen any time soon) .

The problem with this is that the working class are socialised into not sending their kids to University and so they don't get a detached view of the predicament they are in. Therefore they are never going to do anything about the undoubted inequalities in the class system. For me this has been the main fault with Labour during its term in office - they have done nothing significant to promote higher education among young working class people.

Working class people have to fight back for themselves and that means in in their communities , participating in their communities , in campaigns , in elections and most of all in their workplace and trade unions ( if they've got one ) as that's where they have actual economic power if they realised it.

But if working class people can't see those inequalities why should they suddenly start becoming politically active and campaigning against them. And whatever you say most working class people are relatively comfortably in material terms. If you really want to engage with the working class stop going on rallies with fellow politico chums and get down to Grand Avenue; or Ball Road; or Lansbury Park and convince THOSE people.

As for the anti-war demos you'll find plenty of working class people on them.
After all most people have to work for a living and therefore are working class.
Military Families against the War were at last Saturday's demo in Manchester and they are definitely working class.As are the trade unionists on the march.There were many TU banners.

I'd be willing to bet the majority of people on that march were middle-class.

 

[lewislewis]

I do differ to Brockway slightly but most of his points are right. I actually think the anti-war movement was superb and although it didn't revolutionise the working classes it had an impact on them, politicised some of them (not permanently) and had a significant impact on UK politics.

But yeah, I think we can solve some issues without fighting. You're right, we do have economic power, we should organise into unions always and should strike when we are exploited. I'm the first to support strikes and participate in them also.

 

[niclas]

I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)?

This thread manages to ignore the positives that came out of the conference...

- the launch of "Muslims for Plaid" grassroots movement - the party has three Muslim county councillors.
- the party is affiliated to Defend Council Housing and at the forefront of that battle in various councils.
- its members are leading the campaigns against landfill in Hafod quarry, the hospital closures in Withybush and Llandudno and solidly against the LNG pipeline across the south.
- a majority of its members are women (quite a surprise for me in macho Welsh politics) and many of them are going to be AMs come next May?
- it gave the Burberry workers a great reception as well as Mark Serwotka of the PCS.
- it is unequivocably anti-war and anti-imperialist.
- the launch of practical (i.e. achievable within a four-year term) policies to tackle issues such as affordable housing, student debt and elderly health care. From door knocking we've done locally, these are key issues.

Plaid's programme for the coming Assembly elections is radical reformist - like the WSA was and the CNWP and Respect are now. The difference is that Plaid will get people elected and some of them will be revolutionary socialists (and, no, I don't just mean Leanne).

 

[osterberg]

Yeah but Trade Union activists are politicos, they're not the council estates spontaneously rising up are they. And it's a day out.

Well I never said anything about council estates spontaneously rising up.
Maybe the TU activists are 'politicos' (not that there is anything wrong with that) but they're also working class.If they are shop stewards or union reps it is because they were elected to those positions by workers.
People didn't go to the demo for a day out,they went to demonstrate their anger at Blair and his warmongering ways.
A four and a half bus trip to Manchester is not fun.
If I wanted a good day out last Saturday there a lot of other things I could have done.

 

[Brockway]

Well I never said anything about council estates spontaneously rising up.
Maybe the TU activists are 'politicos' (not that there is anything wrong with that) but they're also working class.If they are shop stewards or union reps it is because they were elected to those positions by workers.
People didn't go to the demo for a day out,they went to demonstrate their anger at Blair and his warmongering ways.
A four and a half bus trip to Manchester is not fun.
If I wanted a good day out last Saturday there a lot of other things I could have done.

But TU activists are a minority and it is their duty to go on such rallies - they are not representative of the working class as a whole (whether they are elected in a work situation or not). Politicos don't count. Where were the council estate working class on that rally?

 

[osterberg]

deleted

 

[osterberg]

That's all true but it doesn't necessarily mean the working class like capitalism.They,most of them, just don't see an alternative.

No honestly they do like it. There's a basic human instinct for novelty for a start - if you give a child a grey toy and a toy that is brightly coloured and makes funny noises - it will play with the latter. Marxism is the grey toy, Capitalism is the sparkly one. Most working class people aren't against the capitalist sytem at all - they would love the opportunity themselves to be rich. They don't want an alternative they want a ticket in the lottery.

There's debt,unaffordable housing,low pay,hospital waiting lists , not being able to get an NHS dentist , your kids joining the army and being sent off to be an instrument of U.S foreign policy,the council not sorting out the damp in the bathroom , the council closing the local school , the company you work relocating abroad and making the staff redundant.And so it goes on.

People don't have to get into debt. There is low pay but you could educate yourself and get a better job. If you look hard enough you'll find an NHS dentist. You don't have to join the army. Some councils are good and some are crap. There's no real grinding poverty anymore.

The question is what the working class can do about it . And that doesn't mean sitting about all day reading Marx and doesn't mean Plaid or Respect AM's doing it for them (although any Respect AMs being elected isn't going to happen any time soon) .

The problem with this is that the working class are socialised into not sending their kids to University and so they don't get a detached view of the predicament they are in. Therefore they are never going to do anything about the undoubted inequalities in the class system. For me this has been the main fault with Labour during its term in office - they have done nothing significant to promote higher education among young working class people.

Working class people have to fight back for themselves and that means in in their communities , participating in their communities , in campaigns , in elections and most of all in their workplace and trade unions ( if they've got one ) as that's where they have actual economic power if they realised it.

But if working class people can't see those inequalities why should they suddenly start becoming politically active and campaigning against them. And whatever you say most working class people are relatively comfortably in material terms. If you really want to engage with the working class stop going on rallies with fellow politico chums and get down to Grand Avenue; or Ball Road; or Lansbury Park and convince THOSE people.

As for the anti-war demos you'll find plenty of working class people on them.
After all most people have to work for a living and therefore are working class.
Military Families against the War were at last Saturday's demo in Manchester and they are definitely working class.As are the trade unionists on the march.There were many TU banners.

I'd be willing to bet the majority of people on that march were middle-class.

Aren't you being a bit patronising about the working class? We ( and that includes you , Brockway . I assume you have to work for a living ) are not all thick bastards slobbed out in front of the telly all day bought off by all those lovely consumer goods.Working class people don't all wear tracksuits and baseball caps and smoke Lambert and Butler.

We are all affected by capitalism.We don't have to be living in grinding poverty or on a council house.

By the way have you ever tried to get an NHS dentist?

I was just trying to make the point that working class have the ability to change society through their own self organisation without relying on elected representatives to do it for them ( which they won't because they're to tied into the system ) . I wasn't saying the working class were going to rise up tomorrow.

There have been plenty of working class kids who have gone to uni.
The reason is harder is loans and fees.That nasty capitalism again.

Us 'politicos' do by the way try to do stuff in working class areas.Not being politically active yourself you would'nt.We might not be terribly effective but hopefully that will change.

Thanks for taking time to reply.There are a lot of people who think like you and its interesting what you have to say.

 

[osterberg]

But TU activists are a minority and it is their duty to go on such rallies - they are not representative of the working class as a whole (whether they are elected in a work situation or not). Politicos don't count. Where were the council estate working class on that rally?

Oh you little hairsplitter,you.
Tell you what,next demo I go on I'll go round asking if anyone lives on a council estate.
Or maybe I'll be able to tell by their whippets and flat caps?

 

[osterberg]

I thought the plan was to cut tax for businesses in the depressed Valleys and W Wales (i.e. the Objective One areas)?

This thread manages to ignore the positives that came out of the conference...

- the launch of "Muslims for Plaid" grassroots movement - the party has three Muslim county councillors.
- the party is affiliated to Defend Council Housing and at the forefront of that battle in various councils.
- its members are leading the campaigns against landfill in Hafod quarry, the hospital closures in Withybush and Llandudno and solidly against the LNG pipeline across the south.
- a majority of its members are women (quite a surprise for me in macho Welsh politics) and many of them are going to be AMs come next May?
- it gave the Burberry workers a great reception as well as Mark Serwotka of the PCS.
- it is unequivocably anti-war and anti-imperialist.
- the launch of practical (i.e. achievable within a four-year term) policies to tackle issues such as affordable housing, student debt and elderly health care. From door knocking we've done locally, these are key issues.

Plaid's programme for the coming Assembly elections is radical reformist - like the WSA was and the CNWP and Respect are now. The difference is that Plaid will get people elected and some of them will be revolutionary socialists (and, no, I don't just mean Leanne).

Nice party political broadcast.
Lets see if you carry out all those radical poicies if you get elected at the next assembly elections.

 

[Brockway]

Aren't you being a bit patronising about the working class? We ( and that includes you , Brockway . I assume you have to work for a living ) are not all thick bastards slobbed out in front of the telly all day bought off by all those lovely consumer goods.Working class people don't all wear tracksuits and baseball caps and smoke Lambert and Butler.

No, working class people aren't thick, though in the context of the society we live in they are certainly undereducated. They are also unhealthier. I don't know a single person working class or otherwise who doesn't want more and better material possessions.

We are all affected by capitalism.We don't have to be living in grinding poverty or on a council house.

Of course we are all affected by Capitalism - and the overwhelming majority of people are quite happy with that.

By the way have you ever tried to get an NHS dentist?

Yup, an absolute doddle. Next door to the MacDonalds on St Mary Street if you live in Cardiff.

I was just trying to make the point that working class have the ability to change society through their own self organisation without relying on elected representatives to do it for them ( which they won't because they're to tied into the system ) . I wasn't saying the working class were going to rise up tomorrow.

They have the ability but do they want to? Most people are happy with the current system. People are wary of change especially when they turn on their TVs and see so many other parts of the world worse off than wealthy and comparatively safe Britain. Why jeopardise that?

There have been plenty of working class kids who have gone to uni.
The reason is harder is loans and fees.That nasty capitalism again.

Absolute bollocks. I'm working class and I went to university before loans and fees were introduced. During that time I only ever met one other student who was working class. The idea that loans and fees have stopped working class people going to university is a myth - they weren't going in the first place. The working classes are socialised into not going to university, after all someone has to do the shit jobs. By the way loans and fees for middle-class students is absolutely justified. University has always been a middle-class scam.

Us 'politicos' do by the way try to do stuff in working class areas.Not being politically active yourself you would'nt.We might not be terribly effective but hopefully that will change.

I've never seen a member of Respect on my estate. Politicos gravitate towards other politicos instead of the people they profess to emancipate. This always amuses me.

Thanks for taking time to reply.There are a lot of people who think like you and its interesting what you have to say.

LOL