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Paul Barnes gone

Moroccan Sunset said:
Tbh, I think so much of this could be dealt with if there was some board engagement on here. It's where a lot of fans congregate and discuss stuff, so why can't one of the 5 come here to answer questions/thoughts/concerns? When I buy something off Amazon they want to know what I thought of the service - they don't tell me that if I want to give feedback I have to make the effort to go to them.
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The club has its own Facebook page and Twitter feed. Surely that's the best place for club officials to address questions or concerns?
 
The Dulwich apologists are back in force after a week maybe of keeping quiet under the weight of evidence.

No doubt they will be asking whose fault it was in their cosy chats behind the goal why Barnes had his budget cut by 20% and who has resigned from the board to take responsibility for that?
 
Personally i would prefer a sense of distance between boardroom and fans whilst simultaneously having the former explaining the bigger decisions. All the time Ben is behind the goal, he's beyond open criticism for fear of fracturing any perceived chumminess.
 
Pink Panther said:
The club has its own Facebook page and Twitter feed. Surely that's the best place for club officials to address questions or concerns?
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I’m not a Facebook user, but have asked questions to the club’s official Twitter account before and they’ve not been responded to. I’ve seen plenty of other examples of that as well. Don’t think that’s how the club chooses to use those channels.

And lest we forget, one of the reasons the Discord was set up was to answer questions from supporters. But when the questions got too hard they were ignored, and eventually the channel was shut down.
 
AveryDave said:
Ben leads the Board and the decision making on critical matters that impact all areas of the club, why not address valid concerns from supporters in a clear and transparent way on a regular basis?
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I think he does. Open meetings have been held pretty regularly, particularly at critical points. It's also been made possible to attend online. Nobody pretends to be the expert and all help and guidance is - I think - really wanted and valued. That doesn't mean scanning and responding to points on this forum. Also ultimately someone has to make decisions and that can be quite a lonely place.
 
tonysingh said:
Personally i would prefer a sense of distance between boardroom and fans whilst simultaneously having the former explaining the bigger decisions. All the time Ben is behind the goal, he's beyond open criticism for fear of fracturing any perceived chumminess.
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This.

Unless I should have been emailing every CEO with observations about the business, like they said all along.
 
MrFouldsy said:
I think he does. Open meetings have been held pretty regularly, particularly at critical points. It's also been made possible to attend online. Nobody pretends to be the expert and all help and guidance is - I think - really wanted and valued. That doesn't mean scanning and responding to points on this forum. Also ultimately someone has to make decisions and that can be quite a lonely place.
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If alternative viewpoints were actually sought out, do you think its the case that not one person said it would be a bad idea to trick loads of fans down to the club under false pretences to announce a well-known gambling ambassador was going to be involved in the club (for a “reality” tv show).

Its amazing how little diversity of viewpoints there must be behind the goal considering their decision making.
 
MrFouldsy said:
I think he does. Open meetings have been held pretty regularly, particularly at critical points. It's also been made possible to attend online. Nobody pretends to be the expert and all help and guidance is - I think - really wanted and valued. That doesn't mean scanning and responding to points on this forum. Also ultimately someone has to make decisions and that can be quite a lonely place.
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A fan forum arranged at a week's notice in April 2022. I couldn't attend due to work commitments that couldn't be changed at short notice, but emailed the club in advance asking if it would be recorded and made available to those who couldn't attend in person or online. Didn't receive a response.

And an open training session in October 2022, again arranged at short notice, that had a 20 minute Q&A at the end.

Realise the pandemic would have stopped opportunities before then, but that's not a lot in the last 12 months, a period that's seen a lot of big changes take place.

Also, the forum in April 2022 was heralded as "a return to the forums we were able to run frequently before the pandemic" - approaching eleven months on, there hasn't been another one.
 
B.I.G said:
If alternative viewpoints were actually sought out, do you think its the case that not one person said it would be a bad idea to trick loads of fans down to the club under false pretences to announce a well-known gambling ambassador was going to be involved in the club (for a “reality” tv show).

Its amazing how little diversity of viewpoints there must be behind the goal considering their decision aking
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That whole saga was an absolute shit show - on so many levels 🤪
 
B.I.G said:
The Dulwich apologists are back in force after a week maybe of keeping quiet under the weight of evidence.

No doubt they will be asking whose fault it was in their cosy chats behind the goal why Barnes had his budget cut by 20% and who has resigned from the board to take responsibility for that?
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On the 20%… I think you can plausibly make a mathematical case that the playing budget was cut by that amount because it was the collective payoff amount. I don’t know if that’s the case at all. I’m just saying it’s plausible to imagine if you’re giving people one month per year seved severance that it’s going to eat into a playing budget to that extent, given the length of time served.

Not saying that’s right or wrong. Just offering it as a potential mathematical explanation.
 
scousedom said:
On the 20%… I think you can plausibly make a mathematical case that the plying budget was cut by that amount because it was the collective payoff amount. I don’t know if that’s the case at all. I’m just saying it’s plausible to imagine if you’re giving people one month per year seved severance that it’s going to eat into a playing budget to that extent, given the length of time served.

Not saying that’s right or wrong. Just offering it as a potential mathematical explanation.
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Plausible. For sure.

I’d assume there was someone to blame if that was the case and for that person to have stepped down as a result.

Since it cost someone their job and nearly relegated the club.

Isn’t it the case that somehow, that those at the top of any organisation never really carry the can?

Not when its their mates that say you got this one wrong, better luck next time.
 
Bugpowder Dust said:
Ben is behind the goal almost every week, why not have a chat?

Always been friendly and approachable, even though some people on here paint him as some sort of anonymous malign controlling influence.
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Yeh, I think that's an option, but I still think this is where the discussion is happening - going up to him behind the goal and trying to unpack this lot would take a bloody monologue. And for me, that's still the fans going to the board: like I say, it should be the board coming to the fans (or if you want to put it crudely, the customers). If you want to try and build a bond with us, then come to us, hold out the olive branch. There'll be some initial sniping certainly, but as long as your patient, honest and listen to people I think that will ease off.

For the record, I don't see him as malign (and I know you weren't targetting me specifically there.) When I raffled the signed shirt for Shayne Mangodza's family before the pandemic, he personally did something remarkably kind and generous in helping the cause. He asked me to keep it to myself, and I absolutely will so won't share details, but I thought it was a really compassionate thing to do.

I think he's just clumsy at times, and makes bad decisions, which combined with the lack of engagement can make him look much more sinister than I think he is.
 
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B.I.G said:
Plausible. For sure.

I’d assume there was someone to blame if that was the case and for that person to have stepped down as a result.

Since it cost someone their job and nearly relegated the club.

Isn’t it the case that somehow, that those at the top of any organisation never really carry the can?

Not when its their mates that say you got this one wrong, better luck next time.
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On the basis an averagely successful manager is one who probably gets, I dunno, 40% of transfers right I think you’re allowed to get a couple of manager picks wrong.

Does keeping Gavin on at the start of the season count as one? Maybe, maybe not. I’d respect both sides of that argument.

But ultimately this all goes to arguing for 100% fan ownership and democratic appointment of all posts by said fans.
 
Moroccan Sunset said:
And for me, that's still the fans going to the board: like I say, it should be the board coming to the fans (or if you want to put it crudely, the customers).
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Completely agree with this. The “we’re behind the goal chat when you want” line is bullshit and ignores the imbalanced power dynamic of fan approaching owner and mates.

Plus, there’s enough pricks behind the goal not watching the game anyway…
 
scousedom said:
On the basis an averagely successful manager is one who probably gets, I dunno, 40% of transfers right I think you’re allowed to get a couple of manager picks wrong.

Does keeping Gavin on at the start of the season count as one? Maybe, maybe not. I’d respect both sides of that argument.

But ultimately this all goes to arguing for 100% fan ownership and democratic appointment of all posts by said fans.
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Good point. How long has the current trust representative to the board been appointed?

Are they thinking of being made a permanent appointment? Maybe give then the title of emperor? Or is there a limit on how long their membership of the board can last?
 
B.I.G said:
Good point. How long has the current trust representative to the board been appointed?

Are they thinking of being made a permanent appointment? Maybe give then the title of emperor? Or is there a limit on how long their membership of the board can last?
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There are two. Both have been there a couple of years I think? But I’ll be honest Covid time has done me and it could be longer. In any case Ben pre-dates both by (I think) several years.

As I remember (and it may have changed), they are still subject to standing for the Trust Board on a maximum three year cycle (can be two) and the Trust Board decides post every election cycle who the two people are who go onto the Club board. But that’s as I remember, please someone correct if I’m wrong.

I’m not sure what your angle is there though. On the basis one is a pure volunteer and the other a paid employee - none have any equity, much less that which Ben has.
 
scousedom said:
There are two. Both have been there a couple of years I think? But I’ll be honest Covid time has done me and it could be longer. In any case Ben pre-dates both by (I think) several years.

As I remember (and it may have changed), they are still subject to standing for the Trust Board on a maximum three year cycle (can be two) and the Trust Board decides post every election cycle who the two people are who go onto the Club board. But that’s as I remember, please someone correct if I’m wrong.

I’m not sure what your angle is there though. On the basis one is a pure volunteer and the other a paid employee - none have any equity, much less that which Ben has.
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The angle is that there should be a term limit for any appointed position as good practice.

There also shouldn’t be any paid employees at all as its impossible to appear to be independent of the person that signs the cheques. If I understand correctly and the paid employee is appointed as a trust representative then that is totally unacceptable. I had assumed that wasn’t the case.
 
B.I.G said:
The angle is that there should be a term limit for any appointed position as good practice.

There also shouldn’t be any paid employees at all as its impossible to appear to be independent of the person that signs the cheques. If I understand correctly and the paid employee is appointed as a trust representative then that is totally unacceptable. I had assumed that wasn’t the case.
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I don’t really want to get into this. It’s talking about individuals. Specific individuals who are specifically the best individual the club could possibly find for the multiple roles they do, better than anyone else could.

There are hundreds of legitimate ways you can have a go at the way the club is being run. This is emphatically not one of them.
 
scousedom said:
I don’t really want to get into this. It’s talking about individuals. Specific individuals who are specifically the best individual the club could possibly find for the multiple roles they do, better than anyone else could.

There are hundreds of legitimate ways you can have a go at the way the club is being run. This is emphatically not one of them.
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Its not talking about individuals. Its talking about the method and rules about how trust representatives are appointed to the board of the football club. I think its a critical point of discussion so I will make a separate thread about it.
 
Bugpowder Dust said:
Ben is behind the goal almost every week, why not have a chat?

Always been friendly and approachable, even though some people on here paint him as some sort of anonymous malign controlling influence.
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Pick out the chairman for a chat in amongst a noisy crowd of 3k+ (hopefully) passionate fans when a game is going on that presumably both are actually interested in watching and where one or both of the parties may have consumed a beer or more? Given that in most instances chat is likely to be critical of current goings on at the club this is hardly the sort of atmosphere where both fans and board can actually have a frank exchange of thoughts is it?
 
Moroccan Sunset said:
Tbh, I think so much of this could be dealt with if there was some board engagement on here. It's where a lot of fans congregate and discuss stuff, so why can't one of the 5 come here to answer questions/thoughts/concerns? When I buy something off Amazon they want to know what I thought of the service - they don't tell me that if I want to give feedback I have to make the effort to go to them.

I think a lot of the anger and belligerence that's on here at the moment stems from the fact that no one from the board bothers with Urban, all valid concerns are just ignored, presumably because some of us are critical of the board's decisions. But the worst thing you can do with people who are pissed off is ignore them - it'll just make them angrier, more suspicious.

The tactic seems to be to let Tom and Liam soak up the shit, but that's not fair. They're not the ones making the decisions.

I, for example, would love to know why it took us to Tues/Weds to sack Barnes when he'd lost his last game on Saturday. We've lost at least one very valuable training session, and short of an announcement this afternoon, we're likely to lose another tonight. Why was Barnes's contract not terminated on Saturday evening, Sunday latest? It means the new manager will have had much less time with the squad than he should have had.

I don't know why I bothered writing this. The board don't read Urban anyway.
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Me neither. Reckon we're gonna win Sat. Boom
 
editor said:
But those concerns rarely get addressed. See: Crouch/Discord.
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That's a failing of the club that needs to be addressed. I don't see how it would work better for club personnel to invite questions and give representative answers via an independent channel, when it has its own media platforms.

More frequent supporters forums at the club wouldn't go amiss either. Perhaps the club should aim to hold one three or four times a year during a predictable month on a Thursday evening , so it becomes a regular event.
 
Pink Panther said:
That's a failing of the club that needs to be addressed. I don't see how it would work better for club personnel to invite questions and give representative answers via an independent channel, when it has its own media platforms.

More frequent supporters forums at the club wouldn't go amiss either. Perhaps the club should aim to hold one three or four times a year during a predictable month on a Thursday evening , so it becomes a regular event.
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This is the heart of it for me - regular, structured, club-led opportunities for the supporters to ask questions and receive quality answers.

I'm struggling to think of any club at any level that offers a 24/7 route in for questions beyond the most straightforward of information requests on platforms like Twitter or Facebook, and rightly so - apart from being open to misuse, something like that would be more or less impossible to run effectively.

The absence of that structured, club-led engagement causes frustration, which can then turn into dissatisfaction, with the gap in communication filled by others like liamdhfc or baleboy_93 as far as they're able, which is an entirely unfair position for them to be in.

And I'd imagine editor offering this forum as a means of engaging with a good sized section of the supporters was borne out of the frustration that there's no clear plan from the club to fill the communication gap, so why not use something that already exists, even if not perfect for that particular purpose.

All of that is to say, I don't think this is a unique problem - you see supporters of other clubs at all levels express frustration with the same issue all the time - and I daresay the chairman of most of those clubs probably wouldn't be found behind the goal on matchdays happy to have a chat.

But we tell ourselves that we're not like other clubs, for all kinds of reasons - so it needs to be time for the Board to acknowledge that, and start communicating with the whole supporter base in a way that shows they do care about all concerns, not just those that paint them in a good light.
 
In my time on the committee there was definitely a “need to know” basis for communication with supporters. Apart from the irregular fans forums, it tended to be a rather one-sided relationship communicating with fans when we needed to get them on board for the proposed ground developments or bums on seats at games. That hasn’t really changed despite the arrival of club personnel dedicated (and of course paid) to communicate. It’s something that needs to be addressed going. Now that I’m part of the committee set up with my women’s/nonbinary club, I’m seeing a whole different way of doing things where input is gathered from members (we have over 200) about everything from the leagues we play in to proposed sponsors to tours to the club nights we put on to raise funds to sustain the club. Not saying this is a route Dulwich Hamlet would or could go down but there’s definitely a model to ensure fan involvement & engagement.
 
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