Old Negatives

[cybertect]

Well, packhorses bridges wree built for centuries so it's hard to pinpoint what century it was built in. I've found stone packhorse bridges built in the 1500s and ones built a couple of hundred years later looking very similar. Maybe Cybertect can tell us if construction changed dramatically at any time, but as Cybertect seems to be ignoring anything I say...!

I think we should send Cybertect out with a camera and tell her to get up off her arse and find the answer

Well, if you will insist on calling me 'she'...

I'm not supremely well versed in the changes in construction techniques for small bridges, but I would suspect that the one in the photo dates from before the advent of the railways in the 1840s. After that, brick would likely have taken over from stone.

Before that, for small structures like this, they were liable to use traditional techniques that changed little over the centuries. Engineers like Thomas Telford were the first to start applying modern thinking to bridge design at the end of the 18th century.

Could have been on holiday or on some assignment?

FWIW, for most people, taking a holiday is itself fairly unlikely in the 19th century.

Taking a full plate camera (with tripod, etc.) with you on holiday is highly unlikely, especially if you were still using wet plate technology which meant literally carting a laboratory around with you in a van, like this one used by Roger Fenton in the Crimea.

There was a very brief window of opportunity between preparing the plate with chemicals, taking the photograph and then developing and fixing the image.

mick's already mentioned that the bridge image is a wet plate negative.*

If it was further afield, then some kind of commission or project would be a more likely reason for that.

* e2a: Dry plate technology, which was developed in Britain in the 1870s, enormously opened up the opportunities for photographing further afield with more lightweight equipment.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I really can't believe that I'm still googling fucking packhorse bridges

*get a life Minnie*

 

[cybertect]

BTW, has anyone else noticed the young lady peeping out of the window of the house?

Technical note: that suggests a relatively short exposure time, as her image is quite sharp.

 

[cybertect]

Other things to think about...

There's a stream and an industrial looking chimney. It's certainly not domestic.

One might suppose that there was a water wheel providing power for something (a mill or factory of some kind) that then was replaced by a steam engine.

You have to be able easily to supply coal to fuel the steam engine, so it's probably not far from a railway line or (maybe more likely) a canal.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Other things to think about...

There's a stream and an industrial looking chimney. It's certainly not domestic.

One might suppose that there was a water wheel providing power for something (a mill or factory of some kind) that then was replaced by a steam engine.

You have to be able easily to supply coal to fuel the steam engine, so it's probably not far from a railway line or (maybe more likely) a canal.

I already mentioned a mill/millhouse and the chimney.

I tell ya, I swear I'm talking to a brick bridge The reason I started looking for packhorse bridges was because I started looking at canals

 

[mick2007]

Ah! There is one of a water wheel...but it's dry plate so a lot later. Though the later batch could of been taken by the same person. Though I've yet to make any connection on that.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Well, if you will insist on calling me 'she'...
.

I know, and after I typed it, I thought "shit, must go back and change that" and forgot.

Anyway, why are all my suggestions and queries being ignored by you. I thought you were an architect or something. I'd like answers to my questions

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Well, if you will insist on calling me 'she'...

I'm not supremely well versed in the changes in construction techniques for small bridges, but I would suspect that the one in the photo dates from before the advent of the railways in the 1840s. After that, brick would likely have taken over from stone.

Before that, for small structures like this, they were liable to use traditional techniques that changed little over the centuries. Engineers like Thomas Telford were the first to start applying modern thinking to bridge design at the end of the 18th century.




FWIW, for most people, taking a holiday is itself fairly unlikely in the 19th century.

Taking a full plate camera (with tripod, etc.) with you on holiday is highly unlikely, especially if you were still using wet plate technology which meant literally carting a laboratory around with you in a van, like this one used by Roger Fenton in the Crimea.

There was a very brief window of opportunity between preparing the plate with chemicals, taking the photograph and then developing and fixing the image.

mick's already mentioned that the bridge image is a wet plate negative.*

If it was further afield, then some kind of commission or project would be a more likely reason for that.

* e2a: Dry plate technology, which was developed in Britain in the 1870s, enormously opened up the opportunities for photographing further afield with more lightweight equipment.

Absolutely no point in telling me about wet and dry plates as I know nothing about photography, although interesting to see that picture and how much someone would have to lug around if they were on holiday

Wouldn't it be great if that guy came forward into the future and you gave him a HD camera that fits in the palm of your hand. Like Back to the Future reversed

 

[mick2007]

Also I like the look on that womans face like 'What the fuck are you doing down there'..

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Also I like the look on that womans face like 'What the fuck are you doing down there'..

I reckon it's "you're late, you lazy little shit, I'm docking your wages"

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Is it possible that that particluar river may now have dried up or even been diverted making it not as recognisable as it once was?

 

[cybertect]

Those cutwaters (if that's the right term for those pier things) are completely different

Yes. That's the right term

Obviously it's not, but don't you think it's very similar to Hebden Bridge (although different arches)?

This Heben Bridge?

http://www.hebweb.notaproblem.co.uk/Nigel/page1/Pics2/Bridge.JPG

Er, not particularly. It's a stone bridge, but on a much different scale. They mostly work in similar ways.

I already mentioned a mill/millhouse and the chimney.

I tell ya, I swear I'm talking to a brick bridge The reason I started looking for packhorse bridges was because I started looking at canals

maybe you did, but you hadn't mentioned canals on the thread before that post.

Dare I say that I was also the first person to comment on the chimney...

My point was to put all of those things together to help narrow down the possible locations.

anyhow

Is it possible that that particluar river may now have dried up or even been diverted making it not as recognisable as it once was?

I think it's entirely possible. The stream is clearly silting up in the photo. Small rivers like that got paved over. Even relatively major rivers in London like the Fleet had been diverted underground by the nineteenth century, the only reminders we have are in names like Fleet Street.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Yes. That's the right term



This Heben Bridge?

http://www.hebweb.notaproblem.co.uk/Nigel/page1/Pics2/Bridge.JPG

Er, not particularly. It's a stone bridge, but on a much different scale. They mostly work in similar ways.



maybe you did, but you hadn't mentioned canals on the thread before that post.

Dare I say that I was also the first person to comment on the chimney...

My point was to put all of those things together to help narrow down the possible locations.

anyhow



I think it's entirely possible. The stream is clearly silting up in the photo. Small rivers like that got paved over. Even relatively major rivers in London like the Fleet had been diverted underground by the nineteenth century, the only reminders we have are in names like Fleet Street.

I'm pleased I got those cutwaters correct and have been sitting here all day waiting for you to confirm that they are indeed cutwaters. Thank you missus, er, mister!

Yes, I realise Hebden Bridge is much larger, the arches are a different shape etc. but I was talking more about the stonework itself, ie. block/brick style stonework as opposed to erm...

doesn't matter

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I think it's entirely possible. The stream is clearly silting up in the photo. Small rivers like that got paved over. Even relatively major rivers in London like the Fleet had been diverted underground by the nineteenth century, the only reminders we have are in names like Fleet Street.

The bridge is probably gone and been replaced by a council housing estate

 

[cybertect]

The bridge is probably gone and been replaced by a council housing estate

You've been looking at Nauls Mill House, haven't you?

[It's a fairly prominent landmark on the ring road; they built a park on the site at the end of the 19th century, using the mill pond as a boating lake, then repurposed it after the war]

Consulting with mrs c, there were loads of mills all over Coventry which have all been obliterated (Priory Mill and Henley Mill being some other notable examples).

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

You've been looking at Nauls Mill House, haven't you?

No, but will have a look now

On that house, what type of chimney pot is that called with the spikey effect?

Were chimney pot styles regional or more to do with particular years or just suppliers or none of the above?

eta: What a monstrosity

I'm going to give up on this soon and assume the council knocked the bridge down and built an estate over it

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Are there any hi res pictures of the single arched bridge Nick?

 

[mick2007]

Mick!..not at the moment but it could be arranged.

Also I agree with you about things being tarmaced over. There is a local mill that was demolished a while ago. In the foundations they discovered two, I guess packhorse bridges that were very old. They were around for a week or so for local people to have a good gawp at them. Then they got the tarmac treatment again, so people could park their cars over them, which I thought was a shame.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Mick!..not at the moment but it could be arranged.

Also I agree with you about things being tarmaced over. There is a local mill that was demolished a while ago. In the foundations they discovered two, I guess packhorse bridges that were very old. They were around for a week or so for local people to have a good gawp at them. Then they got the tarmac treatment again, so people could park their cars over them, which I thought was a shame.

Mick, Nick, what's a letter.... Anyway, stop nitpicking. At least I got your sex right

I'm too busy looking at bridges and millhouses and fashion to remember your name

Shame about them being tarmaced over. I reckon that's what's probably happened to these ones. Still, couldl be worth sending the pics to the local Coventry papers to see if anyone can place them

 

[mick2007]

Alas I forgot the other photo with the bridge on with the single arch, I don't have the negative for that..

I've just tried looking at the water wheel negative and it's nothing to really write home about. It's a dry plate neg and by the standard of photography alone, I presume it's another photographer other than the early wet plate stuff. I'll stick this on anyway, but I don't think we'll get any mileage out of it. It would just of been nice to try and make a connection between the early and later stuff and maybe even get some idea on the location of the double arched bridge.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Nah, don't think it's this as wheel looks too wide

Would be nice if it was this, but doesn't look right either

Hopefully someone else will get it by the time I wake up later on. Goodnight

 

[mick2007]

I think all thats been done to be honest, so seriously thanks for help on those. It was brilliant working all that stuff out.

If I could give it one more shot. I purchased a few of these buggers about 18 months ago, which was described as 1920's Art Deco on the cheap for what they are. Much to my delight on first inspection..they were not 1920's or indeed 'Art Deco', but something substantially better than that.

They are the originals as well..making these, I guess worth a few quid. There is two of these, I've never fully got to the bottom what was going on here and I don't know London that well. This shot was taken on Warwick Street in around the 1880's? I have had a google and Warwick Street looks nothing like this..it appears a lot smaller.

So where is this in this day and age. More importantly what is going on? It would appear to be something to do with Queen Victoria and some kind of celebration. Also who are characters in the carriage? Some kind of royalty by the looks of it.

I love this shot though more for all the characters on the roof or hanging out of the windows and on the high res really gives you a feel of being there. It sort of opens a window to long ago.

High Res

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5511097508_2f93e5c0f5_o.jpg

 

[cybertect]

Judging by the among of bunting and the costumes people are wearing, It could be Victoria's Diamond Jubilee celebrations in 1897.

 

[cybertect]

Yep, it looks rather like it was the parade in June

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=52109

e2a: at London Bridge Station

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/3360555/Hulton-Archive

 

[cybertect]

Picking up on the fact that the procession for Victoria's Diamond Jubilee went over London Bridge and down Borough High Street...

There used to be a Warwick Street in Southwark in 1897, it was renamed Milcote Street in 1912. [Google Map]

I haven't been able to find an itinerary for the parade, but it seems reasonable to surmise the route went this way and then right at St George's Circus, up Blackfriars Road and back over Blackfriars Bridge (which Victoria had opened in 1869) to the City and St Paul's for the big finale.


The building on the corner of Milcote [Warwick] Street and Borough Road is Murphy House, which was built two years later in 1899.

If the caption is accurate, I think what we're looking at is approximately this view in modern London.

 

[cybertect]

Ha!

http://www.museumoflondonprints.com/image.php?id=139371&idx=7&fromsearch=true

Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee: A View of the Processional Route from Borough Road. Oil painting, giving an impression of the decorations along the processional route for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, 22 June 1897. The viewpoint is from Borough Rd, Lambeth, looking west towards St. George's Circus. Examples of stands erected in front of buildings can be seen on the left, with Life Guards and other troops lining road, awaiting the procession.

Artist/Photographer/Maker
Mary Edith Durham

Date
1897 AD - 1897 AD

If I'm right, this painting was done from just about the same spot, but looking west instead of north east.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I woke up an hour ago and I was dreaming. I was down a mine shaft (that was 40,000 feet down)...













































looking for bridges

 

[cybertect]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_South_Bank_University

On 10 October 1894, the National School of Bakery and Confectionery (later the National Bakery School) was opened with 78 pupils. In 1897 the Polytechnic was let to sightseers who wished to see the Diamond Jubilee parade for Queen Victoria and in 1902 the Borough Road building was once again let to sightseers who wished to see the Coronation parade of King Edward VII. Through a donation from Mr Edric Bayley, the Edric Hall was built in 1908, along with the Lancaster Street extension buildings which gave the Polytechnic new bakery rooms, gymnasium, workshops and its triangular campus site.

LSBU is still on the same site, just opposite Milcote Street.

 

[mick2007]

Good grief Cybertect, thats an unbelievable amount of detective work and nailed what I've been trying to do for ages.

I was working on the idea that it could of been one of Queen Victoria's Jubilees or I wasn't sure if was some kind of Royal Wedding or something along those lines.

Also the fact that 'Warwick Street' was renamed didn't help matters. I recall, I think there is another Warwick Street somewhere in London and that didn't work out for whatever reason as well.

So cheers!

The high res link didn't seem to work on my browser so I've reloaded it.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5511097508_2f93e5c0f5_o.jpg

Minnie, I just thought it made a change from looking for probably long gone bridges.

Edit.

Yeah, 100% here is another image.

http://www.heritage-history.com/books/cambridge/primary/zpage213.gif

 

[cybertect]

No need to Google for that

It's outside the front of St Paul's Cathedral on the same day.

e2a: same photo as on this page

http://blog.londonconnection.com/?p=1262

Oh, hang on, that wasn't one of yours, was it?