Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Pressure can be applied, even if it means ditching and reforming the Central Office.
Now that the Labour party has finally died, we should have a funeral.
- Thread starter Hocus Eye.
- Start date
Pressure can be applied, even if it means ditching and reforming the Central Office.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Doggie time, be back in a bit. This is a good thread.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I've been debating this for 15 years, and there's really no way,given how "stitched up" the party infrastructure is, to apply pressure.
The only way to go (if you agree with electoral politics) is to construct a new socialist party that is by and for the people, and doesn't merely take them for granted as vote-fodder. Unfortunately, most of the various left cliques and sects operate on a principle of encouraging their supporters to "vote Labour without illusions" when local elections or a general election come around, so rather than solving the problem, they perpetuate the problem by subordinating any possibility of real change to short-term electoral gain.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need eh, you secret marxist
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
I can see the difficulties, indeed posts passim advocate the solution of forming a new party. The change needs to come from constituency level though, if the local organisations threaten to disaffiliate from Labour Central in big enough numbers to threaten to derail the gravy train, Labour Central will listen. It isn't as if they would have to abandon principles to participate in a new order, they haven't got any.
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DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
it would also require the big unions to disaffiliate. Yes a certain amount of labours war chest comes from the largess of super rich cunts who like to think they are machiavelli by buying MP's, but the bread and butter still comes from the unions coffers. Thats the thing, it was supposed to be the political wing of the wider labour movement. Thats got chucked under the bus a long time ago. tail wagging dog etc etc ad nauseum
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Yep, which is also an example of why setting up a new one won't work. The problem is not "the Labour Party's been captured, let's start a new one" but "the game is rigged, any political party must play by rules which will over time eviscerate its original intent, we need extra-Parliamentary power to force concessions."
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
And that is a road that we cannot travel.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
we will have to. Parliamentary reform pushed by the chartists sought to clean the agean stables- they didn't but they made some strides. We can't look to parliament to represent our interests. Its inherently undemocratic now. Was it ever else.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
No, it wasn't; however, flawed as it is, it is better than society fighting to the death on the streets.
Funny thing age, it doesn't necessarily bring wisdom, but it does bring a somewhat longer view. When I was younger, I was much more in favour of the quick solution, let the people rise, and the outcome is a just society. As the years have passed, the inherent venality of man has become apparent, no matter how pure your revolution at the advent, within a couple of decades, the divisions in society wouldn't be that much different to now. Different masters, but masters just the same.
Fuck, I'm getting old.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
No, it wasn't; however, flawed as it is, it is better than society fighting to the death on the streets.
Funny thing age, it doesn't necessarily bring wisdom, but it does bring a somewhat longer view. When I was younger, I was much more in favour of the quick solution, let the people rise, and the outcome is a just society. As the years have passed, the inherent venality of man has become apparent, no matter how pure your revolution at the advent, within a couple of decades, the divisions in society wouldn't be that much different to now. Different masters, but masters just the same.
Fuck, I'm getting old.
See my tagline
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Uhuh, or perhaps it simply leads to you patronise people without bothering to check whether they actually are the stereotype you have in your head. You seem to think a suggestion of building "extra-Parliamentary power" is the same thing as suggesting "fighting to death on the streets" and "a quick solution," which of course it isn't, any more than direct action means "kick a window in."
And as for "flawed though it is" - the present system keeps fools voting for it and defending it with exactly that sort of tedious defeated shrug even as it takes away rights and proactively deepens inequality regardless of who's in charge. Seems like Parliament's working perfectly to me, Henry Ireton really had very little to worry about.
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MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Ummmm... I've known Dottie for a considerable length of time, a lot of years in fact. I know exactly what he means, and I would suggest that his response confirms it.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Because male careerists are so few in number are they not?
The old saw about those seeking office being unfitted to hold such office is probably true.
We have too many MPs who went the PPE 2:2, work for an MP as a researcher, fight an unattainable to get blooded, then handed a safe seat.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
My point being that's nothing to with women or being a woman or all women lists
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Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Absolutely. Sorry, should have made that a 'stand alone' post, rather than a 'reply' to yours.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because male careerists are so few in number are they not?
Reading AC14's posts is like reading a Dan Hodges column - reactionary, centre-right Blairist twatmongery.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Perhaps AC14 is a Blairite plant, put on these boards to neutralise anything vaguely leftist that is posted in discussions of the Labour Party.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It's not working very well if he is.
Tbf, plenty of ex-pros still need to take regular jobs once they're done. Not many you've heard of I grant you, but professional football is more than just the gilded few
David Hillier's working as a fireman in Bristol and he's won a championship medal in the last 25 years!
Anyway, as you were
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
he was trained by articul8
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
In one way I think it's quite good to have a Blairite on here for a change. It's good to get the chance to argue with people who think like your rulers sometimes. But I'm disappointed that he won't explain himself. He seems to be saying that ordinary people voted for the Tories because they are the party of the aspirational and labour weren't under Miliband the Red. But it seems to me the Tories have spent five years blocking the aspirations of anybody who doesn't hold significant assets. Historically it was social democratic policies that helped those in this country who aspired to better themselves. So I'm still none the wiser as to what he means. VP may be right that aspirational is a code word for those who want to own houses, but it's become more difficult to own houses in the south east of england and many major cities in the country, so that doesn't quite work. Seems to me it might be a codeword for those who already own houses but want to climb the ladder higher. But if that's who New Labour is appealing to now they are in trouble - because there's a serious generational divide developing in home ownership, so their target group will die off while the young people will feel ever more disenfranchised, ever less inclined to vote. Does no-one in the Labour party have an iota of strategic thinking? It's not that I would ever willingly vote for them, but the short-termism is a little staggering.
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