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Now that COVID is here permanently

Why when it comes to Covid, do you think we need to aim for zero risk, when with so many aspects of our lives, we accept small risks without even thinking ? Should we have lockdowns for the seasonal flu so you feel 100% safe ? The risk from dying from that are not to dissimilar from dying from Covid if vaccinated. Should you get into a car, on public transport, on a plane, doing DIY, go for a swim, eat fatty food, the list of small risks people unthinkingly accept is endless. But for Covid, where if everybody is vaccinated the risk of serious disease or death is really quite small, we should we all live the rest of our lives with social restrictions ?
So this is interesting because social restrictions is quite a broad concept, and even before COVID it wasn’t uncommon to see East Asian people wearing face masks in public. I originally thought that was after SARS but apparently it predated it by some years, although stories about the original why vary. Certain respiratory patients in the UK were also very practiced at wearing masks when moving around communal wards.

Wearing masks in busy public areas would count as a social restriction but one that really isn’t that much of a hardship for most. Sadly I can’t see it happening here en mass during winters but it could have been a low cost strategy with a positive impact on transmission of all respiratory viruses.

Similarly keeping hand sanitizers around in public might lessen other viruses too, and as addressed earlier in the thread, increased ability for some to work from home with minor illnesses could also lessen virus spread. Some voluntary and temporary returns to restrictions could be very useful for much more than COVID.
 
I don’t want this to come across as rude, but just what qualifications do posters such as elbows and littlebabyjesus have to be such ‘experts’? I’m sure the former has some degree of expertise just from the sheer amount of information they post but I’ve avoided the science stuff on here not just cos it’s boring (to me) and too hard for understand, but also cos I just don’t know which information is to be trusted or not when it comes from anonymous posters rather than folk like Whitty and Van Tam - even they have proven to have feet of clay after all!
What have I posted here that has made you think I think I'm an expert?

You yourself asked for people's reactions to the article you posted. I gave you a reaction, one with some numbers attached. Sorry I didn't know you wanted people to give you their credentials before answering you.
 
Ditto the continual lockdown argument but that’s made much less frequently now.

I dont think there ever was much of an argument for continual lockdown.

Zero covid did not involve continual lockdown, it involved really early lockdowns in an attempt to minimise the numbers. Not many countries went for that approach, and those that did were not intending to do so forever, just till things like vaccination uptake reached a certain level. And if someone wants to count the number of weeks someone living in parts of those countries ended up living under lockdown so far, and compares that to the length of lockdown time the UK had to endure as a result of late action, I think the results would be very interesting indeed! Then add in how many hospitalisations and deaths happened, and an ugly picture emerges. Attempts in 2021 to piss all over zero covid with renewed vigour, as soon as the apparent opportunity arose, were obvious and disgusting. The UKs dismal approach was humbling, but some resist that humbling by bringing much bravado to that table, and in the vaccine era there is even a chance they will get away with such stances in ways they could not really hope to earlier on.

I liked some of the zero covid themes very much, the idea of trying to minimise infections, trying to nip things in the bud so that measures dont have to last as long and there isnt so much death and erosion of the NHS. I had low expectations about this being done, and no expectations of it happening in the UK, so I didnt spend as much time talking about it as I otherwise would have. I have never called for or expected people in the UK to endure a lockdown lasting years, or even half a year at a time. But I have been clear throughout 2021 that I dont think we should ask vaccines to carry 100% of the pandemic burden, and that approaches which tended towards such an extreme were risky and might doom us to more of the very strongest measures than we could have gotten away with if we'd maintained a better balance all the way through.

A lot of my pandemic commentary has been about what I expected the authorities to do, and when their hand might be forced. That largely comes down to pressure on hospitals, rather than the exact number of deaths, although the two are clearly related. So trying to turn this back into a discussion about the future, here is my simplified guide:

The authorities want to reach a point where only medical interventions are required in order to cope. Vaccines carry a big chunk of this weight, as do treatments. The authorities are especially keen on the potential of treatments which can be given to people at home, and that lead to further substantial changes to the proportion of cases that then go on to require hospitalisation.

The authorities in the UK know that even when trying to be optimistic, they hadnt quite managed to fully reach that point yet, mostly due to setbacks caused by variants. So they've ended up pushing their luck, and also they have felt the need to still bring in certain measures, and to appeal to people loudly to adjust their behaviour. It will become really obvious once we reach a point where they've gotten beyond that, when their confidence becomes high that they can deal with this virus using little more than medical interventions. And then there will be questions about whether they can maintain that stance fully all year round, or whether they still have to go further in winter or at any time when a notable epidemic wave of this virus happens.

Related to that picture of the future are questions for us all such as how often the authorities are going to feel like they need to encourage everyone to get a booster. And this too has an impact on what attitudes and media mood music they will need to preserve in the population - if people become too comfortable about the virus and uptake of boosters starts to fall below the required level as a result, we'll have a renewed problem. If we are asked to get a booster every 4 or 6 months instead of yearly, this also has implications for attitudes and acceptance of what needs to be done in the years ahead. Hopefully a more comprehensive understanding of immunity will be built via data obtained in situations like the current Omicron wave, and the frequency with which authorities think we need another dose of vaccine will be reduced as a result of any good news in this wave, but its not a certainty at this point.
 
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I don't know what we do tbh. It seems fairer to restrict those who could have the vaccinations but haven't/won't than those who have but I've no idea how you'd do it.
Make vaccine passports a requirement for all non-essential activities e.g. pubs, football, gigs, etc. And make the message around that about that being necessary to protect society from these selfish people who are prolonging the issue for everyone, putting others at risk, and crippling the NHS.
 
So this is interesting because social restrictions is quite a broad concept, and even before COVID it wasn’t uncommon to see East Asian people wearing face masks in public. I originally thought that was after SARS but apparently it predated it by some years, although stories about the original why vary. Certain respiratory patients in the UK were also very practiced at wearing masks when moving around communal wards.

Wearing masks in busy public areas would count as a social restriction but one that really isn’t that much of a hardship for most. Sadly I can’t see it happening here en mass during winters but it could have been a low cost strategy with a positive impact on transmission of all respiratory viruses.

Similarly keeping hand sanitizers around in public might lessen other viruses too, and as addressed earlier in the thread, increased ability for some to work from home with minor illnesses could also lessen virus spread. Some voluntary and temporary returns to restrictions could be very useful for much more than COVID.
I don't see wearing masks in crowded indoor spaces till Covid is not a threat anymore, as a social restriction. I'm all for it. I'm talking about the closing down of public life (restaurants, clubs, museums, etc) and of curfews.
 
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The aim is to not get seriously ill or to die, eventually we'll all get it. Six of my friends had Covid since they've been vaccinated, all had no more than mild cold symptoms for a few days. The solution is vaccinations every few months and ideally adjusted vaccinations to new variants once they are available. The biggest challenge now is to get vaccines to poorer countries with low vaccination rates.

I know. But pandemic viruses tend to play out. Meaning they have some sort of life span. This isn't (correct me if I'm wrong) necessarily achieved by 'everyone getting it' but more by the virus eventually mutating into a lower threshold of danger to us. I'd rather play the long game than write off some old folk or those with underlying conditions. We can mitigate sensibly against this.
 
Even if the beef is removed, attitudes and expectations of the future are shaped by attitudes and opinions about the past.

And so it is no surprise that the faces tend to be the same ones as expressed certain attitudes to restrictions or what an acceptable amount and sort of death is from this virus in the past. Likewise with those whose stance is more similar to mine.

My views on the future are really still quite broad at this point,
and I hope to narrow them a bit only once we have discovered what the burden of the current Omicron wave will be like. So my attitude will at least evolve as the truths of the Omicron wave become much clearer. I invite people to consider whether that will be the same for some other stances that conflict with my own - it seems to me that some of those attitudes have persisted in the past no matter how bad and deadly the waves of those times subsequently turned out to be. Having now reached quite far into the vaccination phase of the pandemic, they are bound to stick to their guns with the expectation that reality will finally become compatible with their long-held stances. Whereas my own attitude will have to adjust based on the experiences of each wave.

I've been locked into a precautionary, act strongly to minimise deaths and healthcare burden stance since late February or early March 2020, so it will be no surprise if people have lost sight of the fact that I am well aware of what attitudes towards death from diseases is like during non-pandemic or mild-pandemic times. In fact I was following and talking about flu for many years before this current pandemic, and as a result I am well aware of how even a nasty spike of death can happen in a way that utterly fails to register at the time, fails to leave a big mark on something we might think of as the collective memories of a population.

I will likely underline that last point by soon posting a graph I've posted once or twice in the past but not recently, which showed just how much flu death could happen in a short space of time without having a big impact on a nations psyche. And I do keep such things in mind when pondering the future of humanity living and dying with this virus.

I had stopped watching this thread, but got an alert you had quoted me, and wow, another long winded, and basically pointless post, which can be summed up by your own admission you haven't a clue ATM, because there're too many variables.

This is why I've started to just scroll past your posts, and I guess others have too, as you mentioned you are getting less reactions now, which is a shame as your posts were so interesting and useful, until we entered the post vaccine era, now they bore the hell out of me.
 
I'm don't see wearing masks in crowded indoor spaces till Covid is not a threat anymore, as a social restriction. I'm all for it. I'm talking about the closing down of public life (restaurants, clubs, museums, etc) and of curfews.
And tbf we haven’t had that for some time, which also probably explains the differences in attitude you described here and where you are.
 
I just found the same article, but nothing in there about the nuts and bolts, would refusing become a crime?
We only just got a new government and they are working on how to implement it, so I don't know. We have compulsory vaccinations for diseases like measles. No child can start school without it, so I suppose it would be similar with Covid. People can't come to work unless they have a good reason not to get vaccinated, in which case they would probably have to get regularly tested.
 
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And tbf we haven’t had that for some time, which also probably explains the differences in attitude you described here and where you are.
In Germany we have restrictions again, clubs had to close, there are rules on how many people can meet indoors. I have to get tested twice a week for work and punters can only get into entertainment venues, bars, restaurants etc, with a vaccination passport + ID or proof that they have recovered.
 
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I had stopped watching this thread, but got an alert you had quoted me, and wow, another long winded, and basically pointless post, which can be summed up by your own admission you haven't a clue ATM, because there're too many variables.

This is why I've started to just scroll past your posts, and I guess others have too, as you mentioned you are getting less reactions now, which is a shame as your posts were so interesting and useful, until we entered the post vaccine era, now they bore the hell out of me.

U ok hun?

Seriously. Wtf?
 
See, I’d probably prefer the odd circuit breaker lockdown (with wages covered) to compulsory vaccination 🤷‍♀️

As much as certain people who are vaccine hesitant wind me up, I’m not sure making them compulsory is the answer.
 
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In Germany we have a restriction again, clubs had to close, there are rules on how many people can meet indoors. I have to get tested twice a week for work and punters can only get into entertainment venues,bars, restaurants etc, with a vaccination passport or proof that they have recovered (which I support)
Yeah, here you can go to pubs, restaurants, cinemas and theatres without proof of anything. And certainly the last time I went to the cinema, there wasn't a whole lot of mask wearing happening. Which is why I haven't been since :(
 
I don’t want this to come across as rude, but just what qualifications do posters such as elbows and littlebabyjesus have to be such ‘experts’? I’m sure the former has some degree of expertise just from the sheer amount of information they post but I’ve avoided the science stuff on here not just cos it’s boring (to me) and too hard for understand, but also cos I just don’t know which information is to be trusted or not when it comes from anonymous posters rather than folk like Whitty and Van Tam - even they have proven to have feet of clay after all!
I dont have formal qualifications.

I have a track record in this pandemic, and a more minor track record here when it came to things like the swine flu pandemic and the Fukushima nuclear disaster.

I dont have any demands or expectations in regards what people think of the information I provide. Perhaps I have earned some trust from some, mostly likely during a few key moments in the buildup to the first couple of very nasty waves, but I would always rather people focus on the detail of whats being said and judge each concept and claim on its own merits.

Nobody has a perfect pandemic track record either. I'm self-absorbed enough that I fully intend to review all the things I got wrong at some stage, but I dont have any illusions about how interesting people will find that subject.
 
I dont have formal qualifications.

I have a track record in this pandemic, and a more minor track record here when it came to things like the swine flu pandemic and the Fukushima nuclear disaster.

I dont have any demands or expectations in regards what people think of the information I provide. Perhaps I have earned some trust from some, mostly likely during a few key moments in the buildup to the first couple of very nasty waves, but I would always rather people focus on the detail of whats being said and judge each concept and claim on its own merits.

Nobody has a perfect pandemic track record either. I'm self-absorbed enough that I fully intend to review all the things I got wrong at some stage, but I dont have any illusions about how interesting people will find that subject.
it wasn't meant as a criticism of you or anything you've said, just an observation from an ignorant person about how difficult it is to gauge what information is trustworthy or not, esp when you don't have a handle on the science and have to trust SOMEONE :D
 
I had stopped watching this thread, but got an alert you had quoted me, and wow, another long winded, and basically pointless post, which can be summed up by your own admission you haven't a clue ATM, because there're too many variables.

This is why I've started to just scroll past your posts, and I guess others have too, as you mentioned you are getting less reactions now, which is a shame as your posts were so interesting and useful, until we entered the post vaccine era, now they bore the hell out of me.
I can be a bore and rather tedious, but thats been the case all along and sadly its not my fault that this phase of the pandemic has been messy with more uncertainties.

We dont have to luxury of ignoring all the tedious detail just because its a mess though, and I'm hardly going to fall silent just because I cannot deliver the sort of certainty you apparently seek. I dont think I ever have been able to give a nice, short, clear view of what is sure to happen, apart from at the most obvious moments where we faced rapidly impending lockdown.

My central message this year has been that it is not wise to expect vaccines to carry all of the pandemic burden on their own. I believe this has now been demonstrated, and even the authorities that would love to rely on medical interventions alone have still been forced to go further. Thankfully this has not so far been demonstrated via a wave with as much death and hospitalisation as seen in the first two waves here, its been demonstrated in slightly subtler ways. So worst case possibilities of the sort I am always keen to draw attention to have not been as relevant this time, at least not so far. I do hope that continues through this Omicron wave, and I will always favour becoming dull and irrelevant over having new reasons for people to pay attention.

Did you hope for more from the vaccination era so far? Even I did hope for a less eventful 2021 than we actually got, and I do think this is one of the subjects that people dont seem to have talked about as much as I might have expected. I was hoping we could have moved a bit further down the pandemic road than has actually been the case.

I've also long expected a bunch of people to have more of a go at me once the pandemic was clearly leaving its acute phase, for a bunch of reasons including my past criticisms of them, the length of my posts, my attitude, and not saying things people want to hear. I figured most regular posters who I've pissed off at some point in this pandemic are going to have a dig once my commentary value has substantially decreased. And my usefulness was never likely to ever again match the level it briefly reached in the first half of March 2020, and I expect I acknowledged that at the time. But I did hope that people would at least wait till the worst bit of the Omicron wave was over. On the other hand, considering my stance in the Delta wave (which led to over 18,000 deaths by the way), I'm also surprised its taken this long.
 
I had stopped watching this thread, but got an alert you had quoted me, and wow, another long winded, and basically pointless post, which can be summed up by your own admission you haven't a clue ATM, because there're too many variables.

This is why I've started to just scroll past your posts, and I guess others have too, as you mentioned you are getting less reactions now, which is a shame as your posts were so interesting and useful, until we entered the post vaccine era, now they bore the hell out of me.
they don't owe you anything wtf
 
Why when it comes to Covid, do you think we need to aim for zero risk, when with so many aspects of our lives, we accept small risks without even thinking ? Should we have lockdowns for the seasonal flu so you feel 100% safe ? The risk from dying from that are not to dissimilar from dying from Covid if vaccinated. Should you get into a car, on public transport, on a plane, doing DIY, go for a swim, eat fatty food, the list of small risks people unthinkingly accept is endless. But for Covid, where if everybody is vaccinated the risk of serious disease or death is really quite small, we should we all live the rest of our lives with social restrictions ?

Just as one point, none of those things have exponential growth of impact/illness/death, they all have limited and mostly individual risks.

But no, obviously zero risk from covid or zero covid is never going to happen.

But on this topic back at you, what level of death do you think is OK? 10 a day, 100 a day, a 1000 a day?
 
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At what cost though? We know that Omicron currently doesn't look too bad for people who've had two jabs and the booster. That's approx 30% of people round here. So that leaves 70% of people who've had none, one or two. That's pretty scary.
But that’s their choice right? That’s okay. People are allowed to make choices.
 
But that’s their choice right? That’s okay. People are allowed to make choices.
Yes that is their choice. I wonder if they're all making an informed choice though?

The talk about Omicron being relatively mild, for example, is predicated on people having being fully vaccinated/boostered. I'm not sure that that is always clear in the messaging. Which is quite important given 70% of people round here aren't fully vaccinated/boostered. Maybe some of them have already had Covid, presumably some haven't.

And is their not being vaccinated a risk to others and likely to prolong restrictions for everyone or affect access to health services for themselves and others? Possibly. Will additional restrictions need be be introduced for the unvaccinated? Again, possibly. Are all the unvaccinated aware of these possible implications of not being vaccinated? I don't know.
 
Just as one point, none of those things have exponential growth of impact/illness/death, they all have limited and mostly individual risks.

But no, obviously zero risk from covid or zero covid is going to happen.

But on this topic back at you, what level of death do you think is OK? 10 a day, 100 a day, a 1000 a day?
I admire your optimism.
 
Yes that is their choice. I wonder if they're all making an informed choice though?

The talk about Omicron being relatively mild, for example, is predicated on people having being fully vaccinated/boostered. I'm not sure that that is always clear in the messaging. Which is quite important given 70% of people round here aren't fully vaccinated/boostered. Maybe some of them have already had Covid, presumably some haven't.

And is their not being vaccinated a risk to others and likely to prolong restrictions for everyone or affect access to health services for themselves and others? Possibly. Will additional restrictions need be be introduced for the unvaccinated? Again, possibly. Are all the unvaccinated aware of these possible implications of not being vaccinated? I don't know.
To be tedious about it, I am happy to say that Omicron severity is based on some additional things too.

The severity of the Omicron wave will certainly be impacted by vaccines, boosters, existing infection-acquired immunity, some of the most vulnerable already having died earlier in the pandemic, and treatments.

But there is also the inherent severity of that partcular strain of the virus. And there are indications that its milder on that front too. Early studies looking into this have attempted to account for the other aspects which would reduce the visible impact on a nations healtchare when faced with an Omicron wave, such as vaccination. They have tended to compare severity to that of Delta, a variant which had a greater estimated hospitalisation rate than versions of the virus that came before Delta. Its still relatively early days but the evidence seems to be increasing that Omicron is inherently milder than Delta.

Some of the modelling of this wave did include scenarios with a range of different severities and different amounts of immune escape. Such things make quite a big difference to the resulting numbers they came out with, and their projections alrready took account of levels of vaccination and the booster rollout.

We havent had very many press conferences this time because Johnson is a shithead, but on the few occasions where there was one in December, Whitty did try to unpick the talk about it being milder - he pointed out the vaccine & population immunity side of things and that there was also the inherent severity. At the time there wasnt too much UK data about the inherent severity, so he was warning people not to over interpret data from South Africa etc. By the next time he gets an opportunity to talk, he might be able to go a fair bit further as the severity seen in practice in the UK will be clearer.

I'm certainly watching the data for 'patients with Covid in mechanical ventilation beds' with much interest. It hasnt really moved in a notable way during this wave so far at all. If that trend continues for the next week or so then I am going to start singing a slightly different pandemic tune to the one people are used to hearing from me.
 
The Spanish flu basically just disappeared. All over the world at the same time too. We dont really know why other than it was perhaps too deadly. I think our knowledge and understanding of viruses is just getting started really.

I very much doubt covid in its more pandemic form will be here to stay. With health measures, vaccination, treatments etc things will be different in a few years. Hopefully for the better. It has barely been 2 years... not very long from a historical perspective.

Was this not because it literallly got everywhere in the world? And people either died or survived?

I have to say as a severely immunocompromised person it is terrifying to think that covid variants will become normal every year.
 
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