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Nationalism

dylans

overlord of all acorns
What is nationalism? An easy question to answer perhaps. The belief in your nation right? but of course that begs the question what exactly is a nation. Here I want to define a definition of nationalism that some may find unusual or defined in manner that hasn't been considered before.

Nationalism is first and foremost an ideology. A political idea. no controversy there. The problem arises when we move beyond that and try to outline a definition that is shared by everyone. The problem begins when we try to define a nation. So perhaps we should begin there.

Many have tried to define a list of characteristics that define a nation. Stalin attempted to answer the question thus
A nation is primarily a community, a definite community of people.

This community is not racial, nor is it tribal. The modern Italian nation was formed from Romans, Teutons, Etruscans, Greeks, Arabs, and so forth. The French nation was formed from Gauls, Romans, Britons, Teutons, and so on. The same must be said of the British, the Germans and others, who were formed into nations from people of diverse races and tribes.

Thus, a nation is not a racial or tribal, but a historically constituted community of people.

Many wouldn't find too much problem with this (even if the author was a murdering bastard) However I want to argue it is completely wrong.

Not that there is no "historically constituted community of people" clearly there are, (sometimes)The problem is that such a community is neither eternal or universal. A a nation is an identity that exists only in the heart and mind not in the world outside ideas.

It is an assumption and a belief and an identity. As such it can change and decay and alter depending on the historical circumstance. A nation you will die for today may be one care nothing for tomorrow I

In short I want to define nation as a community to which one feels a shared identity and a community to which you belong and to whiich others are excluded. That identity may be ethnic, geographic, linguistic or religious. It may be grounded in a specific geographic area or it may be trans national or diasporal. The important thing is that for whatever reason a person feels a commonality and shared identity with a specific community to which others do not belong.

Such national identity can take many forms.It may be democratic and progressive. For example the movement to end Colonialism was an expression of a demand for national self determination and thus a democratic ideal. Nehru's exhortation to Indians that regardless of religion, language or caste they were all Indian, was a definition of nation based on a democratic national ideal that was inclusive and all embracing.

As in the Indian definition of nation, National identity may be inclusive and democratic or it may be exclusive and persecutory. The White power lunacy of skin head racists is a nationalist ideal, in which identity is defined by skin colour. More recently, the genocidal madness of Hutu extremism is a manifestation of nationalism in which Tutsis were excluded to the point of extermination.

On the other hand national identity can be forced on a people by their shared experience of oppression. A german Jew may have felt little in common with a Jew from Poland but the Nazis killed them the same and in their shared suffering and persecution they found a commonality. A shared identity through shared suffering. They became a nation.

An African man may have thought of himself as a proud Dinka warrior and felt nothing for the Nuba over the mountain but to the British imperialists who drew the borders they were all black and all the same. When fighting for independence these former enemies suddenly find themselves fighting for the same nation. The shared experience of colonialism created a national identity.Created in fact, a nation.

Nationalism may be expansive or divisive. The Irish nationalism of the IRA for example demands a united Ireland an ideal that if successful would create a nation larger than present. On the other hand, the nationalism of Baltic states demanding independence following the fall of the Soviet Union, is separatist in nature. A nationalism that that in throwing off a perceived oppressive neighbour creates a smaller independent nation.

What all this indicates is one important point. There is no single definition of nation. No Stalinist list that can clearly and accurately define a nation.
A nation is merely an idea and a belief and a set of assumptions about belonging. it exists only in the heart and mind of those who feel they belong and as such is a morphous and indefinable little beast which changes and alters over history For this reason claims of historical rights to nationhood or attempts to justify nationalism in terms of ethnic purity etc should be treated with suspicion. Whether it is the Jewish peoples god given right to Israel or the Serbs holy right to Bosnia. National myths are merely stories to wrap dreams and political ambitions around. and all to often to justify persecution.

So where does this leave nationalism. The political belief that one belongs to a community. Like the various forms of national identity, nationalism too has a thousand faces and forms.

It is fair to say that nationalism is perhaps the most powerful and destructive political force of the 20th century and the 21st seems to show no decline in its appeal.
To belong and to exclude. My group your group. I have all in common with him and nothing in common with you. Like national identity nationalism as a political ideology can be progressive or reactionary, healthy or genocidal.

When Egyptian Muslims defend Egyptian Christians they are expressing a healthy democratic nationalism that says we are all Egyptians. When Islamist bombers attack a Coptic Church they are expressing a reactionary divisive exclusive nationalism. They are saying Egyptians are only Muslims and Copts are excluded.

When Jinnah demanded Pakistan he refused Nehru's democratic nationalism and appeals that Muslims were Indian and instead offered nationalism as seperatism. A religious nationalism that said Muslims are a nation and cannot live side by side with Hindus.

I would go further. I would say nationalism as a political ideology can be about more than national identity in a geographical sense. It can be a claim to belonging to a group other than nation. It can be a claim to identity defined in opposition to a specific other. For example I would argue that some forms of radical feminism share the same political characteristics of nationalism if not the language. All women have commonality against all men who are defined as the oppressor or the enemy. This is exactly the language of nationalism. When Andrea Dworkin says a miners wife has more in common with Thatcher than she does with her husband she is making a statement of identity exactly the same as nationalism.

In the above example I would argue the dynamics that drive radical feminist politics are the same as those that drive the Black nationalism of separatists such as Marcus Garvey in which all blacks are defined as having commonality in opposition to all whites and in which ideals and goals are defined in terms of separation.

By this standard I would argue that nationalism as a political ideology is not necessarily restricted to a geographic nation state or even a call for one. For example the Islamist call that all Muslims are a nation is nationalism not internationalism despite that fact that Muslims are in many countries. It is an expression of identity that insists religious identity is more important than national citizenship or ethnic identity.

Another example of religious nationalism is Zionism which claims all Jews are a nation regardless of ethnicity or the nation state in which they live and an identity defined against the gentle. It emphasises the impossibility of integration in a society alongside gentiles and insists on separatism as a goal.

Finally, What all these have in common is the rejection of class. Class plays no role in nationalist arguments. To a nationalist a millionaire and a beggar belong to the same community if they meet their definition of belonging.
 
To a nationalist a millionaire and a beggar belong to the same community if they meet their definition of belonging.

a nationalist may , and often has, taken the view that the millionaire unlike the beggar , is by virtue of his wealth and how he expropriated it is systemically tied up to the bollocks with the imperialist forces which subjugate the nation . Tht his wealth depends on them and that hes in league with them . That the imperialist system and a continuance of it is what a illionaire wants as opposed to what the people of the nation want .

The nationalist might also take the view that the nations wealth is the property of the people of that nation and shall not be held in such vast amounts and squandered by individuals against the common good . And that it should be nationalised . And that the millionaire is by default a traitor to the nation and a natural ally of imperialism .
 
or as Connolly stated

The Gaelic Leaguer realises that capitalism did more in one century to destroy the tongue of the Gael than the sword of the Saxon did in six; the apostle of self-reliance amongst Irishmen and women finds no more earnest exponents of self-reliance than those who expound it as the creed of Labour; the earnest advocates of co-operation find the workers stating their ideals as a co-operative commonwealth; the earnest teacher of Christian morality sees that in the co-operative commonwealth alone will true morality be possible, and the fervent patriot learns that his hopes of an Ireland re-born to national life is better stated, and can be better and more completely realised, in the Labour movement for the Re-Conquest of Ireland.

Or as Patrick Pearse stated

the nation’s sovereignty extends to all the material possessions of the nation, the nation’s soil and all its resources [but also to] all wealth and all wealth-producing processes within the nation. In other words, no private right to property is good as against the public right of the nation.”


“And I claim that the nation’s sovereignty over the nation’s material resources is absolute; but that obviously such sovereignty must be exercised for the good of the nation


It is for the nation to determine to what extent private property may be held by its members, and in what items of the nation’s material resources private property should be allowed.”....a nation may go further and determine that all resources of wealth whatever are the property of the nation, that each individual shall gives his service for the nation’s good, and shall be adequately provided for by the nation and that all surplus wealth shall go to the national treasury to be expended on national purposes, rather than be accumulated by private persons.”



from each according to their ability , to each according to their need in other words .
Or from the republican Democratic programme

We declare in the words of the Irish Republican proclamation the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies to be indefeasible and in the language of our first president, Pádraig Mac Piarais, we declare that the nation’s sovereignty extends not only to all the men and women of the nation, but to all its material possessions, the nation’s soil and all its resources, all the wealth and the wealth-producing processes within the nation and with him we affirm that all right to private property must be subordinate to the public right and welfare.


In short a nationalist may take the view the view that a millionaire owes his loyalty first and foremost to the nation, even if it consists of millions of beggars, and unless he does his patriotic duty and accept what the beggars decree in persuit of their national sovereignty he will be a traitor to the nation itself and judged accordingly .
 
a nationalist may , and often has, taken the view that the millionaire unlike the beggar , is by virtue of his wealth and how he expropriated it is systemically tied up to the bollocks with the imperialist forces which subjugate the nation . Tht his wealth depends on them and that hes in league with them . That the imperialist system and a continuance of it is what a illionaire wants as opposed to what the people of the nation want .

The nationalist might also take the view that the nations wealth is the property of the people of that nation and shall not be held in such vast amounts and squandered by individuals against the common good . And that it should be nationalised . And that the millionaire is by default a traitor to the nation and a natural ally of imperialism .

they may. they quite frequently don't though.
 
they may. they quite frequently don't though.

agreed . But the revolutions that took place in Cuba and Vnezuela for example were about national sovereignty first and foremost . An end to being under and being plundered by imperialist forces and imperialist puppets . An end to neo colonialism . To assert and defend national sovereignty meant a lurch to the left whether they liked it or not . Pearse and Connolly had a similar outlook . They understood the relationship between capitalism and imperialism .
 
yes. but not every nationalist fits neatly into dylans' scheme of things.

and the bit about feminism doesn't help his argument, imo. i have never previously encountered the characterisation of feminism as nationalism.

i think what he means is ones identity is determined first and foremost by gender as opposed to class , in common with black nationalists .And white ones too I suppose .
 
agreed . But the revolutions that took place in Cuba and Vnezuela for example were about national sovereignty first and foremost . An end to being under and being plundered by imperialist forces and imperialist puppets . An end to neo colonialism . To assert and defend national sovereignty meant a lurch to the left whether they liked it or not . Pearse and Connolly had a similar outlook . They understood the relationship between capitalism and imperialism .

revolutions? cuba was a nationalist coup, led by the very same middle classes you just claimed to despise.
 
a nationalist may , and often has, taken the view that the millionaire unlike the beggar , is by virtue of his wealth and how he expropriated it is systemically tied up to the bollocks with the imperialist forces which subjugate the nation . Tht his wealth depends on them and that hes in league with them . That the imperialist system and a continuance of it is what a illionaire wants as opposed to what the people of the nation want .

The nationalist might also take the view that the nations wealth is the property of the people of that nation and shall not be held in such vast amounts and squandered by individuals against the common good . And that it should be nationalised . And that the millionaire is by default a traitor to the nation and a natural ally of imperialism .

By this definition the nationalist considers the millionaire to be a traitor right?

But does he no longer belong to the nation as a result of his treachery.? The very idea of treachery implies betrayal. To be a traitor to something you must first belong. Which implies a nationalist assumption of commonality.

Of course a socialist would reject the entire idea of shared national commonality altogether. To the socialist, the millionaire collaborator isn't a traitor at all. He is the class enemy showing his true loyalties. To a socialist the national identity of the millionaire is irrelevant. His class is what separates him from the masses. David Cameron is British and so am I but I have more in common with a worker in Ireland or France than I do with him. When he fucks my class I don't consider him a traitor. He isn't he is being perfectly loyal to his class.

On Connolly, I tried to define nationalism as an ideology that had progressive, revolutionary or democratic dynamics. Clearly the struggle against British colonialism falls into that definition. Connolly was a nationalist but also a socialist who knew that merely achieving national independence would not bring freedom without redistribution of wealth.
 
revolutions? cuba was a nationalist coup, led by the very same middle classes you just claimed to despise.

Despise? Read my post. I have spelled out very clearly that nationalism can be progressive, democratic and revolutionary. I give the example of Nehru. and of Muslim Coptic unity of examples of nationalism as a democratic force

(sorry just realised you were replying to CR not me)
 
By this definition the nationalist considers the millionaire to be a traitor right?

But does he no longer belong to the nation as a result of his treachery.? The very idea of treachery implies betrayal. To be a traitor to something you must first belong. Which implies a nationalist assumption of commonality.

Of course a socialist would reject the entire idea of shared national commonality altogether. To the socialist, the millionaire collaborator isn't a traitor at all. He is the class enemy showing his true loyalties. To a socialist the national identity of the millionaire is irrelevant. His class is what separates him from the masses. David Cameron is British and so am I but I have more in common with a worker in Ireland or France than I do with him. When he fucks my class I don't consider him a traitor. He isn't he is being perfectly loyal to his class.

On Connolly, I tried to define nationalism as an ideology that had progressive, revolutionary or democratic dynamics. Clearly the struggle against British colonialism falls into that definition. Connolly was a nationalist but also a socialist who knew that merely achieving national independence would not bring freedom without redistribution of wealth.
yes. but you say class plays no part in nationalist arguments.
 
Despise? Read my post. I have spelled out very clearly that nationalism can be progressive, democratic and revolutionary. I give the example of Nehru. and of Muslim Coptic unity of examples of nationalism as a democratic force

what you on about? i quoted casually red.
 
yes. but not every nationalist fits neatly into dylans' scheme of things.

and the bit about feminism doesn't help his argument, imo. i have never previously encountered the characterisation of feminism as nationalism.

Please read my post properly. The most important point I have tried to make is there is NO neat scheme of things. Rather nationalism as a political statement of identity can take on many different forms and expressions and for this reason is notoriously difficult to define neatly.
 
Please read my post properly. The most important point I have tried to make is there is NO neat scheme of things. Rather nationalism as a political statement of identity can take on many different forms and expressions and for this reason is notoriously difficult to define neatly.

yes. but you start off the op by saying you're offering a definition.
 
yes. but you start off the op by saying you're offering a definition.

Yes but hardly a neat scheme. Rather I am placing national identity and nationalist ideology in the realm of ideas and assumptions and beliefs. Something that exists in the heart and mind. By its nature national identity is something that defies neat definition. That was my point about Stalin who thought he could.
 
And Stalin continued reversing the dictum that the nationalisms of small countries should be supported in certain situations, for the wider goal of defeating imperialism, and that of bigger countries attacked. Form rather than substance closer to home, where the Russian people now constituted a historically progressive force when it came to the subject peoples of the old multinational Empire, instead of Russifying exploiters putting a spin on Great Power chauvinism.
 
yes. but you say class plays no part in nationalist arguments.

Here you have a point. The socialist nationalists such as Connolly managed to straddle the line between socialist and nationalist ideas by understanding that real national liberation had to be socialist if independence was not to become merely symbolic freedom and the newly Liberated nation find itself economically enslaved to its former colonial masters.
 
Fanon is a good read when considering the various pitfalls of national consciousness in post colonial socities . Ticks my boxes anyway .
 
Finally, What all these have in common is the rejection of class. Class plays no role in nationalist arguments. To a nationalist a millionaire and a beggar belong to the same community if they meet their definition of belonging.

doesn't a constitutional monarchy, such as the UK, derive its sense of nation from the class structure (even if the authority of the crown is supported by devine right)?
 
doesn't a constitutional monarchy, such as the UK, derive its sense of nation from the class structure (even if the authority of the crown is supported by devine right)?

Hmmm. I see where you are coming from but I would argue the crown no longer justifies its authority in terms of class or divine right. Not since Cromwell. Rather it formally bows to the authority of Parliament and through it the "people" ("It reigns but does not rule".) and justifies its position in terms of nation, national unity and cultural continuity. It clearly does symbolise a nation defined by class but this is not acknowledged. In fact it is specifically denied. We are all British. "The peoples Princess". The manner in which Royal events such as weddings are celebrated as national celebrations and opportunities for sharing in the happiness of the Royal couple etc.

(Hmmm. Im not very convinced by my reply here tbh. I will have to think about your point and come back to you later)
 
What we have here is the early glimmering of the understanding that the nation state is obsolete. We no longer operate economically, politically, culturally, or socially, on the basis of a nation state. So why not identify ourselves with some things that actually have some real importance?

I want my Urban 75 passport.
 
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