Moorland - how unsympathetic am I allowed to be?

[co-op]

I got a real slagging off for not being kind enough about these villagers in a discussion last night. Maybe I was just sounding off a bit because the way that the question of climate change has been completely and utterly censored out of any discussion of what's happened with the weather this winter, but I was feeling pretty unsympathetic about the people who live there.

So my case was this; it's a low lying bit of land. We know that there will be more rain, it'll fall more erratically and flooding will increase - we know this from all the theory over the last 25 years at least, and increasingly from actual real observable events.

The population there vote tory overwhelmingly - and have chosen an MP who has vigourously opposed windfarms and renewable energy. They seem to have almost non-stop access to the BBC and are always on the radio and we're told they're "being stoic" yet they seem (to me) to be constantly banging on about how "no ones listening to them" & "the govt should be doing more" (ie we should all be diverting more of our tax to them).

Aren't tories supposed to favour small states? Aren't they supposed to believe in standing on their own two feet? Haven't they consistently and vehemently opposed any climate change policies of any meaning? Aren't they living typical carbon-intensive lives? Why do they think it should only be other people who have to pay the consequences?

Anyway, they're getting on my wick (and yes I know there are going to be innocent victims here).

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

yep, it's clearly all the fault of those tory voters in moorland, i'm convinced.....

 

[Dan U]

Pretty unsympathetic imo.

Also I have heard climate changed mentioned a lot. Just yesterday some Lord from the climate change committee in parliament was on the radio talking about how these events would become more regular and we need to wake up

 

[co-op]

yep, it's clearly all the fault of those tory voters in moorland, i'm convinced.....

Ah yes, with your blend of wit, charm, tightly-argued analysis and cold hard facts, you have persuaded me of the merits of your position. Well done!

 

[Mr Moose]

Ah yes, with your blend of wit, charm, tightly-argued analysis and cold hard facts, you have persuaded me of the merits of your position. Well done!

Your OP doesn't deserve anything more. You come across as the typical urban eejit who thinks everyone outside of the major cities is wealthy.

 

[wiskey]

Out of curiosity have you ever been to the levels?

 

[newbie]

a couple of decades back I knew people who lived right in the middle of the area now flooded. They were 'green' lifestylers (small g, not the party), not earning or consuming much, cycle everywhere, recycle long before it became council policy, unplug every device so nothing is on standby, that sort of thing. ie, they've been banging on about 'the environment' since way before the term 'climate change' entered the language. I lost touch, they may well still be there, I don't know, but if they are the ground floor of their home has ducks swimming in it.

Maybe, just maybe, your stereotypes need a bit of tweaking.

 

[co-op]

Your OP doesn't deserve anything more. You come across as the typical urban eejit who thinks everyone outside of the major cities is wealthy.

Maybe not. I feel like I've been bombarded with their demands on the radio for weeks. They seem to be a load of tories who have got into mutuality all of a sudden.

 

[brogdale]

On a purely instinctive, human level, I do feel very sorry for those affected by the flooding; I'm sure there's a good many folk that are far from the rich, farmer type. But, in the longer term, I feel sorry for them because they live in, and work on, an area of the world that is not hydrologically sustainable. Eventually some of the communities on the levels will have to accept the inevitable facts of rising sea level and climate change and abandon their land to the waters permanently.

Even given the trauma that the locals are going through, some of the vox pop interviews have been tragic; only this morning on R5 a Moorland resident was implicitly bemoaning resources devoted to ODI and saying that "...all this money given to water aid...send them some of this water..."

 

[mauvais]

The climate change element is irrelevant. It's neither certain cause, nor directly avoidable by anything they could do.

The 'small state, less tax' element is more interesting. That'd make them hypocrites, but only proportionally to their extremism on the subject, i.e. not much.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Maybe not. I feel like I've been bombarded with their demands on the radio for weeks.

Maybe turn the wireless off & look at the images. They're all pretty much fucked

 

[co-op]

Out of curiosity have you ever been to the levels?

Yes

a couple of decades back I knew people who lived right in the middle of the area now flooded. They were 'green' lifestylers (small g, not the party), not earning or consuming much, cycle everywhere, recycle long before it became council policy, unplug every device so nothing is on standby, that sort of thing. ie, they've been banging on about 'the environment' since way before the term 'climate change' entered the language. I lost touch, they may well still be there, I don't know, but if they are the ground floor of their home has ducks swimming in it.

Maybe, just maybe, your stereotypes need a bit of tweaking.

Someone tried to get me to buy into a small-holding communal buy on the levels about 3 years ago. There were practical reasons for saying no but the fact that it was on the levels was an absolute clincher.

I feel sorry for anyone who knew it was coming and tried to do something about it.

 

[Pickman's model]

co-op do your mp's views accord with your own?

 

[co-op]

The climate change element is irrelevant. .

Why? It means that the levels are no longer somewhere people can live in the way they used to. Unless we are going to go on pretending that it isn't happening, in which case why am I expected to participate in this illusion?

 

[mauvais]

Why? It means that the levels are no longer somewhere people can live in the way they used to. Unless we are going to go on pretending that it isn't happening, in which case why am I expected to participate in this illusion?

Maybe, or maybe not, but the point is that the individuals have no personal ability to affect their own situation. In their lives to date, what could they have done about AGW to stop this particular flood?

 

[trashpony]

Stupid fucking filipinos too, living on a load of islands

 

[co-op]

Maybe, or maybe not, but the point is that the individuals have no personal ability to affect their own situation. In their lives to date, what could they have done about AGW to stop this particular flood?

Of course individuals can do nothing much on their own about AGW - but when they consistently vote in large numbers for parties that deny it's even happening? My sympathy is for those who've shown some awareness.

 

[co-op]

Stupid fucking filipinos too, living on a load of islands

Poor fucking filipino (and others) who will suffer for the actions of arrogant westerners who clearly don't give a shit about the consequences of their actions for other people.

 

[revol68]

Of course individuals can do nothing much on their own about AGW - but when they consistently vote in large numbers for parties that deny it's even happening? My sympathy is for those who've shown some awareness.

what parties deny it.

I suppose if Liverpool or Manchester get fucked then we should have no sympathy cos they vote Labour.

 

[revol68]

Poor fucking filipino (and others) who will suffer for the actions of arrogant westerners who clearly don't give a shit about the consequences of their actions for other people.

fuck up.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Maybe not. I feel like I've been bombarded with their demands on the radio for weeks. They seem to be a load of tories who have got into mutuality all of a sudden.

'demands'?

I think they just don't want to be swimming in sewage!

However, on the radio they are discussing this right now: people are calling for the likes of a telethon, with the usual rubbish about foreign aid.

This is a joke. The problem isn't a lack of money in this country, it's the ignorance of the aristocracy in faraway Westminster who don't care.

 

[fredfelt]

...

Aren't tories supposed to favour small states? Aren't they supposed to believe in standing on their own two feet? Haven't they consistently and vehemently opposed any climate change policies of any meaning? Aren't they living typical carbon-intensive lives? Why do they think it should only be other people who have to pay the consequences?

Anyway, they're getting on my wick (and yes I know there are going to be innocent victims here).

Then blame those in power, not the victims. Read this for some background on how policy effects flooding

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...public-spending-britain-europe-policies-homes

 

[brogdale]

'demands'?

I think they just don't want to be swimming in sewage!

However, on the radio they are discussing this right now: people are calling for the likes of a telethon, with the usual rubbish about foreign aid.

This is a joke. The problem isn't a lack of money in this country, it's the ignorance of the aristocracy in faraway Westminster who don't care.

I actually think the problem is that politicians on short electoral-cycle time frames have not been honest about the implications of climate change for such low-lying communities. Some areas that are currently inhabited/farmed are just not sustainable in the medium/longer term.

 

[co-op]

what parties deny it.

I suppose if Liverpool or Manchester get fucked then we should have no sympathy cos they vote Labour.

They can say they vote for mutuality - an injury to one is an injury to all.


eta - also "what parties?" - the conservative party is a complete redoubt of climate change deniers.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I actually think the problem is that politicians on short electoral-cycle time frames have not been honest about the implications of climate change for such low-lying communities. Some areas that are currently inhabited/farmed are just not sustainable in the medium/longer term.

Indeed.

But there must be some - relatively simple things - that we can do to shore up places susceptible to flooding.

There will be communities that, in the long term, will be unsustainable. I agree.

 

[Dan U]

I actually think the problem is that politicians on short electoral-cycle time frames have not been honest about the implications of climate change for such low-lying communities. Some areas that are currently inhabited/farmed are just not sustainable in the medium/longer term.

we definitely need to have this conversation, but it needn't be framed in some kind of 'you got whats coming, rural Tories' way that the OP seems to want.

i do share people heres frustration when foreign aid comes up btw, it really doesn't have to be an 'either or' situation. Mr Farage has leapt on this bandwagon yesterday

 

[revol68]

They can say they vote for mutuality - an injury to one is an injury to all.


eta - also "what parties?" - the conservative party is a complete redoubt of climate change deniers.

the labour party stand for what now?

and whilst some loons in the tory party deny climate change, most including the leadership don't.

doing something about it is another matter but no party does anything about it.

 

[Mr Moose]

Why? It means that the levels are no longer somewhere people can live in the way they used to. Unless we are going to go on pretending that it isn't happening, in which case why am I expected to participate in this illusion?

You are fortunate to occupy so much physical and metaphorical high ground. You should go and tell the Dutch about your theories, or maybe Bangladeshi people.

No one lives anywhere that requires no maintenance. All urban or cultivated land is just a few years from rewilding. London survives through a humungous great barrier.

The argument here is that something that used to happen, dredging, has been axed. This would have made the regular inundations of that area mostly tolerable.

It doesn't strike me as an area of any elites. The elite tend to avoid the flood plain. I bet there are loads of rural poor there. But what of it? Everyone's home is important.

If you want your mutuality to be successful you may have to be a bit less judgemental and selfish.

 

[J Ed]

I wonder whether ukip will hoover up any votes on this cos of the government's inaction?

 

[co-op]

the labour party stand for what now?

It's what many people who vote for them think they're voting for, wrongly as it turns but there you go. They are certainly aren't voting for screw you jack I'm alright which has been pretty obviously tory policy for 30 years.

and whilst some loons in the tory party deny climate change, most including the leadership don't.

doing something about it is another matter but no party does anything about it.

It's more than a few loons - it includes George Osborne.