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I fucking love Class 37s! They still regularly pass my house and even my girlfriend can recognise them by their sound alone now!

The English Electric Cl 37 it got to have been one of the three best BR diesel buys along with the class 20 and the class 55 as fare as I am concerned
 
The English Electric Cl 37 it got to have been one of the three best BR diesel buys along with the class 20 and the class 55 as fare as I am concerned

Yes, and the 47 deserves a mention as well.

The worst BR diesel buys would be an interesting debate, with the potential to wind up Western Region loyalists... :D
 
Yes, and the 47 deserves a mention as well.

The worst BR diesel buys would be an interesting debate, with the potential to wind up Western Region loyalists... :D


The 52s could have been good if they had been built as diesel electrics. Problem was BR had way too many different first generation locomotives when half dozen mainline locos plus two or three [03 and 08] shunters would have been far better
 
Yes, and the 47 deserves a mention as well.

The worst BR diesel buys would be an interesting debate, with the potential to wind up Western Region loyalists... :D
I think SikhWarrior has already addressed this in a way, but you'd need some parameters on what qualified as "worst". The 52s were problematic in their earlier years, but those problems had been pretty much ironed out by the time they were declared "non-standard". Even so, in a brave new world where standardisation was to be the thing (and not unreasonably so), even if the 52s had been spectacularly good, they would probably have been doomed, given the numerical superiority of diesel-electrics by then.

Accident of history :(
 
Oh well, if this is going to turn into a serious debate on BR traction policy in the 1950s and 1960s, FWIW I agree with SikhWarrioR that BR ordered far too many types of diesel. It was a product of the chaos at the top of BR around the time of the modernisation plan, when the initial decision to stick with steam for the time being was ditched and they went for crash dieselisation, a daft move exacerbated by the fact that the regions had far too much autonomy, which the Western Region exploited to the full. All of the diesel-hydraulics were a waste of money - although the 52s and Warships were lovely machines, I grant - and we could sit here and rattle of a long list of other types that weren't worth the space they took up. It's fortunate that pretty much by chance BR ended up with a relatively small number of classes that happened to be excellent.

*edit* If we're going to get really heretical, the BR Standard steam engines shouldn't have been built either. The decision in the late 40s to stick with steam pending long-distant electrification and to ignore diesels was made in too much of a hurry, and the opportunity to introduce and thoroughly test a limited number of standard diesels slipped by whilst BR busied itself with building a series of engines that didn't really do much that lightly updated versions of existing types (which several of them were anyway) couldn't have done just as well. In other words, the traction fuck-up of the late 50s was a product of a hasty reversal of misconceived policies dating from right after nationalisation. That's my economic historian's head writing, though: my enthusiast's heart loves the Britannias and 9Fs. :D
 
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Oh well, if this is going to turn into a serious debate on BR traction policy in the 1950s and 1960s, FWIW I agree with SikhWarrioR that BR ordered far too many types of diesel. It was a product of the chaos at the top of BR around the time of the modernisation plan, when the initial decision to stick with steam for the time being was ditched and they went for crash dieselisation, a daft move exacerbated by the fact that the regions had far too much autonomy, which the Western Region exploited to the full. All of the diesel-hydraulics were a waste of money - although the 52s and Warships were lovely machines, I grant - and we could sit here and rattle of a long list of other types that weren't worth the space they took up. It's fortunate that pretty much by chance BR ended up with a relatively small number of classes that happened to be excellent.
I wouldn't disagree with much of that, save to say that I am not sure it was "by chance" - more that the scattershot approach BR adopted did perhaps offer the possibility that some of the classes might be accidentally quite good :)

When you think of the numerous failures, not to mention the now-respected locomotives that didn't always get a good start, the hit rate is pretty low: we seemed to hit problems with 2-stroke diesel pretty quickly (anyone remember the spectacularly unlovely Class 28s?), a lot of the early hydraulic stuff was problematic, then there were whole classes of locomotive that were doomed from the outset by being built to steam standards in steam locomotive works (I'm looking at you, North British).

It is in some ways testament to the designs that did work that we're still using 08s, 37s and 47s. I guess the 55s were always doomed once really fast MU traction appeared (hello HST), but there were all sorts of little locomotives (25,26,27,33) that quietly got on with things and did their job pretty well.

I think they probably nailed it when they commissioned the electrics, because the design brief was clearly pretty narrow, and we got the first of our "boring" locomotives - almost corporate (not that they'd have known what you meant by that then), simple boxes, one very much like another, with just some detail differences of technology to choose between them. Not nearly as interesting historically, though!

And that boringness is probably what makes the ones that didn't make it special. Peaks were too heavy, so they needed an extra axle, and we ended up with something really quite pretty as a result, and I guess they were probably a success story, too, but didn't seem to outlast the much less characterful 47s. Even some of the clunkers - those ugly, stunted 21s and 22s - had a certain 1950s austere charm about them.

*edit* If we're going to get really heretical, the BR Standard steam engines shouldn't have been built either. The decision in the late 40s to stick with steam pending long-distant electrification and to ignore diesels was made in too much of a hurry, and the opportunity to introduce and thoroughly test a limited number of standard diesels slipped by whilst BR busied itself with building a series of engines that didn't really do much that lightly updated versions of existing types (which several of them were anyway) couldn't have done just as well. In other words, the traction fuck-up of the late 50s was a product of a hasty reversal of misconceived policies dating from right after nationalisation. That's my economic historian's head writing, though: my enthusiast's heart loves the Britannias and 9Fs. :D
I guess the steam problem was always going to be a tricky one. Diesels were a comparatively unproven technology at the point that the decision on steam was being made, and I guess, too, that the realisation that the incredibly labour-intensive railway was going to have to slim down a lot had not yet arrived, so steam still made sense. As it was, we weren't really ready for diesels when they did arrive, so they ended up being stabled and maintained on steam sheds, with all the implications for reliability and performance that brought.

But, from a purely aesthetic point of view, those Standard classes were a chance to demonstrate the epitome of steam development and engineering; and if we ever had to pick up again from where we left off on steam, they were a pretty good point to have reached :)
 
Some of the diesels that 'failed' were just ones that were built for fast disappearing traffic, stuff like the 14s and 17s built for trip freight just as this traffic was dying on its arse. The 14s actually had quite a good innings in the industrial sector, it seems preposterous that some were being scrapped when they were only four years old.
 
Some of the diesels that 'failed' were just ones that were built for fast disappearing traffic, stuff like the 14s and 17s built for trip freight just as this traffic was dying on its arse. The 14s actually had quite a good innings in the industrial sector, it seems preposterous that some were being scrapped when they were only four years old.
I think industry had a bit of a bonanza there. I'll bet BR sold them at some kind of scrap-plus price...
 
I wouldn't disagree with much of that, save to say that I am not sure it was "by chance" - more that the scattershot approach BR adopted did perhaps offer the possibility that some of the classes might be accidentally quite good :)

Indeed, but what a wasteful way to go about it. The initial plan IIRC was to order a series of prototypes for long-term testing and then commission production versions of the most successful, which was a very sensible approach but was ditched n favour of mass orders of pretty much untested designs. Small wonder a lot of them were hopeless, or simply unnecessary - the latter exacerbated by a) the Western Region's determination to go its own way, and b) the fact that BR didn't take full account of how some traffics - trip freight workings especially - were dwindling fast.

It is in some ways testament to the designs that did work that we're still using 08s, 37s and 47s. I guess the 55s were always doomed once really fast MU traction appeared (hello HST), but there were all sorts of little locomotives (25,26,27,33) that quietly got on with things and did their job pretty well.

Oh definitely, but the problem is that the really successful designs were a minority.

I guess the steam problem was always going to be a tricky one. Diesels were a comparatively unproven technology at the point that the decision on steam was being made, and I guess, too, that the realisation that the incredibly labour-intensive railway was going to have to slim down a lot had not yet arrived, so steam still made sense. As it was, we weren't really ready for diesels when they did arrive, so they ended up being stabled and maintained on steam sheds, with all the implications for reliability and performance that brought.

But, from a purely aesthetic point of view, those Standard classes were a chance to demonstrate the epitome of steam development and engineering; and if we ever had to pick up again from where we left off on steam, they were a pretty good point to have reached :)

Diesels weren't that new in the late 40s: there were prototypes about, and it's a shame they weren't looked at more seriously. Riddles was right that the long-term future was electrification, but he was too wedded to steam and wrong in assuming that it would suffice until electrification was complete, not least because it was obvious even at the time that it would never be possible to electrify the entire network right down to branch lines and sidings. Moreover, it was becoming increasingly clear even by 1950ish the assumption that pre-war conditions of cheap coal and cheap labour that had kept steam engines viable before the war would continue was wrong. For both of these reasons diesels should have been seriously considered at a far earlier stage than they were.

The other flaw in the standard steam engines' conception was that to be truly 'standard' - and therefore to gain the kind of operating economies Riddles was after - they'd have had to replace swathes of pre-BR types. That would only have been possible, though, if BR had had the resources for a huge scrap-and-build programme, which it didn't. In the end, the 'standards' only added a dozen extra classes - some of them excellent but others indifferent at best - to the dozens already in service.

It would have been far better for BR to have continued building a limited range of pre-nationalisation steam-engine types, whilst evaluating a limited number of prototype diesels for a range of likely tasks and making a serious study of what could/should be electrified in the foreseeable future, and constructing a case to take to government for the resources to get on with it. Admittedly, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but equally there were people at the time who argued it should have been doing exactly that.
 
Indeed, but what a wasteful way to go about it. The initial plan IIRC was to order a series of prototypes for long-term testing and then commission production versions of the most successful, which was a very sensible approach but was ditched n favour of mass orders of pretty much untested designs. Small wonder a lot of them were hopeless, or simply unnecessary - the latter exacerbated by a) the Western Region's determination to go its own way, and b) the fact that BR didn't take full account of how some traffics - trip freight workings especially - were dwindling fast.



Oh definitely, but the problem is that the really successful designs were a minority.



Diesels weren't that new in the late 40s: there were prototypes about, and it's a shame they weren't looked at more seriously. Riddles was right that the long-term future was electrification, but he was too wedded to steam and wrong in assuming that it would suffice until electrification was complete, not least because it was obvious even at the time that it would never be possible to electrify the entire network right down to branch lines and sidings. Moreover, it was becoming increasingly clear even by 1950ish the assumption that pre-war conditions of cheap coal and cheap labour that had kept steam engines viable before the war would continue was wrong. For both of these reasons diesels should have been seriously considered at a far earlier stage than they were.

The other flaw in the standard steam engines' conception was that to be truly 'standard' - and therefore to gain the kind of operating economies Riddles was after - they'd have had to replace swathes of pre-BR types. That would only have been possible, though, if BR had had the resources for a huge scrap-and-build programme, which it didn't. In the end, the 'standards' only added a dozen extra classes - some of them excellent but others indifferent at best - to the dozens already in service.

It would have been far better for BR to have continued building a limited range of pre-nationalisation steam-engine types, whilst evaluating a limited number of prototype diesels for a range of likely tasks and making a serious study of what could/should be electrified in the foreseeable future, and constructing a case to take to government for the resources to get on with it. Admittedly, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but equally there were people at the time who argued it should have been doing exactly that.

You mean proven pre war/nationalisation locomotive designs that allready existed in large numbers like the LMS Black Fives and Stanier 8Fs and the GWR halls and 0-6-0 pannier tanks plus things like the LMS 4 cylinder Duchess 4-6-2s and LNER Gresley A3s and A4s. As for diesels the USA was well ahead pre war with EMD [of 59/66 fame] and ALCO fielding successful shunters and EMD with the passenger "E" and freight "F" classes
 
You mean proven pre war/nationalisation locomotive designs that allready existed in large numbers like the LMS Black Fives and Stanier 8Fs and the GWR halls and 0-6-0 pannier tanks plus things like the LMS 4 cylinder Duchess 4-6-2s and LNER Gresley A3s and A4s. As for diesels the USA was well ahead pre war with EMD [of 59/66 fame] and ALCO fielding successful shunters and EMD with the passenger "E" and freight "F" classes

Something like that, yes. The main problem with the BR standards is that, with the exception of the 9F and perhaps the Britannia, they didn't represent much of an advance on pre-nationalisation engines, except in some cases in terms of being slightly easier - and therefore cheaper - to service. It'd have made more sense just to perpetuate production of the sort of types you mention - a few of which were still being made well into the 50s anyway - whilst working out what future traction policy should look like. And yes, the US was already demonstrating that diesels were a viable proposition, albeit in a country that didn't have to import the fuel.
 
Not an old idea, and physically possible. Dunno about the economics or safety though.
 
Not an old idea, and physically possible. Dunno about the economics or safety though.

It's basically a logical extension of Brunel's 'atmospheric railway' idea.

And with the entire vehicle inside the pressure vessel you remove the main issue with Brunel's design which was the diffiulty in maintaining an effective seal on the pressure tube as the vehicle moved.

e2a: It wasn't Brunel's idea, but he did build one of the more ambitious versions of it.
 
I was on a SouthEastern high-speed train going West through the tunnel between Stratford and St.Pancras last week. For a good minute or so, there was a very strong, rapid side-to-side rocking - about 2-4Hz I'd guess. It had the feeling of something hitting its resonant frequency and getting all jiggy with it. Didn't feel right at all. Is this something worth reporting?

We were in the 2nd carriage, so the driver must have been able to feel it too...
 
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Brunel's atmospheric railway was dead in the water, which only went to show that not everything he did turned to gold.
Didn't work because of the leather seals rotting and being eaten by rats.
 
I was on a SouthEastern high-speed train going West through the tunnel between Stratford and St.Pancras last week. For a good minute or so, there was a very strong, rapid side-to-side rocking - about 2-4Hz I'd guess. It had the feeling of something hitting its resonant frequency and getting all jiggy with it. Didn't feel right at all. Is this something worth reporting?

We were in the 2nd carriage, so the driver must have been able to feel it too...
Stick a post up on one of the railway geek forums out there, someone will know.
 
Crispy - send the info to both SouthEastern and Network Rail, I presume that there will be a "send us your comments" form/link on their websites.
 
It's basically a logical extension of Brunel's 'atmospheric railway' idea.

And with the entire vehicle inside the pressure vessel you remove the main issue with Brunel's design which was the diffiulty in maintaining an effective seal on the pressure tube as the vehicle moved.

e2a: It wasn't Brunel's idea, but he did build one of the more ambitious versions of it.

I believe the post office experimented with a pneumatic railway in the 19th century and their was a passenger carrying experiment at Crystal Palace also in the 19th century
 
As Rob Dickinson, who runs the International Steam website, puts it, it's less than a tenth of a second to midnight for the steam locomotive in 'real' revenue-earning service. And yet, tucked away in a few places, there's still the odd steam engine in industrial use, such as in the sugar mills of Java:

java14009.jpg
 
Brunel's atmospheric railway was dead in the water, which only went to show that not everything he did turned to gold.
Didn't work because of the leather seals rotting and being eaten by rats.

Had Brunel had access to plastics for making the seals he might have been able to make it work.

The reason he wanted to use an atmospheric railway to cross South Devon was that the progress of such a train would not be hindered by the forbidding climbs presented by the landscape. One of the only alternatives was to build right along the sea front, which is of course what Brunel ultimately did.
 
As Rob Dickinson, who runs the International Steam website, puts it, it's less than a tenth of a second to midnight for the steam locomotive in 'real' revenue-earning service. And yet, tucked away in a few places, there's still the odd steam engine in industrial use, such as in the sugar mills of Java:

java14009.jpg


It would be interesting to see how far 2nd/3rd gen stem as proposed by Wardale, La Porte, Chapleon etc would fare if it made it of the drawing board and beyond a few experiments ir the Red Devil etc
 
It would be interesting to see how far 2nd/3rd gen stem as proposed by Wardale, La Porte, Chapleon etc would fare if it made it of the drawing board and beyond a few experiments ir the Red Devil etc

Much though we all love steam - and so on - but the sheer (relative) inefficiency of it compared to diesel and electric knocks it out. As an ardent supporter - the experience of firing the 4-6-2 at Woltszyn - Poznan at 5am - the turnround procedures , bringing coal forward etc in a filthy depot nearly killed me - though the joy of driving it was superb. (and I paid for this) - I could see how steam was never sustainable , and even in the 1950's they could not find the labour to do these tedious and unglamerous jobs...
 
Station toilets are profitable things:
Except that NR doesn't exist to make a profit. The article is poor tbh. "Straight into NR's pockets", "retained as profit": NR aren't making any profit, in fact they are heavily in debt. And any money they do have goes into maintaining the railway.
Here, have another look. :p

View attachment 76303

I don't mind it, actually - there are a lot of worse liveries out there. At least it's not queasy First purple or Virgin East Coast's new livery, which is mainly white and will look grimy as hell after a few weeks in winter.
What white?

dsc-1140_w650.jpg


The old EC one was white, this is silvery grey.

Edit: Also stations have a lot more running costs than just the toilets.
 
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