Mighty Hoopla, Cross The Tracks, Wide Awake, Field Day & City Splash festivals, Brockwell Park - discussion

[pinkmonkey]

It is pretty funny though as that field has been a popular place for free parties for years and I don't think it's the first time there's been a rave in that warehouse either. There's always been plenty of free parties round here because we are a long way from any houses.

 

[editor]

More acts announced
Mighty Hoopla announce more acts for their Brockwell Park festival, Saturday June 8th 2019

 

[RoyReed]

Have your say on how we [Lambeth] manage events in our parks and open spaces.

 

[editor]

Have your say on how we [Lambeth] manage events in our parks and open spaces.

Given the amount of coverage Brixton Buzz has given to both events in the park and the community feedback, you'd think they'd write to tell us about this survey, wouldn't you?

 

[RoyReed]

Given the amount of coverage Brixton Buzz has given to both events in the park and the community feedback, you'd think they'd write to tell us about this survey, wouldn't you?

No!

 

[snowy_again]

Looks like permission with conditions was granted by Lambeth last night:

Full submission from Mighty Hoopla and Cross the Tracks here:
https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/do...pr-2019 19.30 Licensing Sub-Committee.pdf?T=9

It contains some site plans, times, set up / breakdown schedule plus all their alcohol, entrance, exit policies - so is a massive document. Full meeting minutes on the 29th I think.

 

[editor]

The Friends of Brockwell Park aren't pleased

Horrendous losses of Country Show distort Lambeth events policy, says Friends of Brockwell Park

 

[newbie]

The Friends of Brockwell Park aren't pleased

Horrendous losses of Country Show distort Lambeth events policy, says Friends of Brockwell Park

I've read that 3 times and can't find anything saying FOBP actually support the CS. Their hatred of commercial events seems to be all consuming... they don't appear to have said they're prepared to see the CS cancelled to preserve their peace and quiet (or the mental health of the swan) but that's the impression. I hope I'm reading it wrong.

 

[teuchter]

Using the word 'loss' instead of 'cost' when talking about the CS is an odd choice. Its purpose is not to make money.

 

[Mr Retro]

I've read that 3 times and can't find anything saying FOBP actually support the CS. Their hatred of commercial events seems to be all consuming... they don't appear to have said they're prepared to see the CS cancelled to preserve their peace and quiet (or the mental health of the swan) but that's the impression. I hope I'm reading it wrong.

Got a similar impression. I read it as they are saying other events need to be put on to cover the cost of the country show. Therefore they want to remove all events including the country show.

“If the London Borough of Lambeth (LBL) did not have this gigantic financial hole to fill, the pressure to hold huge commercial events in public parks, which so many local people strenuously object to, would disappear overnight,’ said FOBP chair, Peter Bradley.”

 

[editor]

The costs of putting on the Country Show are escalating upwards at a disturbing trajectory. Those massive, park-spanning fences backed by a full, bag-rummaging security ensemble don't come cheap. The total loss to Lambeth for the 2017 show was around £350k - and that has apparently more than doubled to £800k, post fence.

 

[Rushy]

The council have been using the Country Show funding argument to support their use of the park for purely private commercial events which close large areas off for weeks at a time. Although they have never quite said it in public, they are happy for it to be understood that the Country Show's survival is dependent on turning Brockwell Park into an commercial event venue. I don't follow the FoBP but I'd hope / have thought that their intention is to dismiss or diminish that argument rather than argue against the Country Show. But if that's their aim it isn't very clear.

There is certainly an argument that the Country Show need not run at such a huge loss and, if better managed, could possibly fund itself - article here regarding 2017 figures. Lambeth's own attendance and spend per head data for 2017 (used to promote the event to sponsors and concessions) suggested £3.5-4.75 million was spent by visitors at the show but they only received £322,000 from the concessions in which it was spent. Despite being managed in an increasingly commercial way, the income from concessions actually fell by about £13,000 in 2018 - although this was made up by an increase in sponsorship. So something seems very wrong with the way the show is being run.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

At least the Friends of Brockwell Park will have something to occupy themselves with for a couple of months, they wouldnt know what to do if they didnt have a free festival to campaign against.

With a doubling in the loss amount from the Lambeth County Fair you would have hoped the council would put 2 and 2 together, and correctly concluded that the fence was a fucking stupid and expensive idea, and get rid. But it seems that isnt their strategy with the future of the show, which is as bewildering as it is infuriating.

 

[discobastard]

At least the Friends of Brockwell Park will have something to occupy themselves with for a couple of months, they wouldnt know what to do if they didnt have a free festival to campaign against.

With a doubling in the loss amount from the Lambeth County Fair you would have hoped the council would put 2 and 2 together, and correctly concluded that the fence was a fucking stupid and expensive idea, and get rid. But it seems that isnt their strategy with the future of the show, which is as bewildering as it is infuriating.

How do you think the insurance and health and safety implications would pan out if they simply said 'let's not bother with a fence this year'? I'm not really sure you understand how 'things' work.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

I am no expert in organising and delivering festivals, but didn't the Lambeth County Show run perfectly fine with no fence for over 40 years?

 

[discobastard]

I am no expert in organising and delivering festivals, but didn't the Lambeth County Show run perfectly fine with no fence for over 40 years?

You've managed to pack two fallacies into one sentence - that's pretty impressive.

1) The fact that you think it has run 'perfectly fine for over 40 years' has nothing to do with any newer insurance or health and safety requirements (effectively the sanitisation and stripping all the fun out of everyday life)

2) Has the show run 'perfectly fine' for over 40 years? It has run for over 40 years but what do you mean by perfectly fine? Has there been no crime or disorder for 40 years?

I'm not in favour of the fence but this kind of loose thinking and lazy language really does nothing to advance the cause.

ETA *three* fallacies!

 

[Dan U]

The Friends of Brockwell Park aren't pleased

Horrendous losses of Country Show distort Lambeth events policy, says Friends of Brockwell Park

Not quite sure I follow the logic in this part of their statement

"To force major events on parks and open spaces solely to help plug that LCS gap in the council’s finances is neither right nor sustainable, the FOBP believes, it is illegal"

 

[Rushy]

Not quite sure I follow the logic in this part of their statement

"To force major events on parks and open spaces solely to help plug that LCS gap in the council’s finances is neither right nor sustainable, the FOBP believes, it is illegal"

I'd imagine that they are referring to established trust law governing the use of funds generated by hire of the park. It is based on old case law which, coincidentally, was originally establish in a case about Brockwell Park in the 19C. However it has very recently been upheld in relation to Finsbury Park. I'm not sure, however, that spending on a free festival in the park (rather than putting funds into general council coffers) would infringe the law - which is why Lambeth have more recently started stressing that they are using the park hire fees to fund the festival rather than absorbing cash into a central pot. Although there are some other legal angles I have heard, such as percentages of park area which can be enclosed, which they may be referring to.

 

[editor]

At least the Friends of Brockwell Park will have something to occupy themselves with for a couple of months, they wouldnt know what to do if they didnt have a free festival to campaign against.

With a doubling in the loss amount from the Lambeth County Fair you would have hoped the council would put 2 and 2 together, and correctly concluded that the fence was a fucking stupid and expensive idea, and get rid. But it seems that isnt their strategy with the future of the show, which is as bewildering as it is infuriating.

Let's not forget those mysterious, seemingly-invisible wave of violent incidents that apparently drove the council decision to introduce the fence with the minutes of the debriefing meeting kept away from the public gaze, despite repeated FoI requests.

Lambeth Council refuses to publish documents explaining why the Great Wall of Brockwell is needed for the 2018 Country Show

 

[Gramsci]

You've managed to pack two fallacies into one sentence - that's pretty impressive.

1) The fact that you think it has run 'perfectly fine for over 40 years' has nothing to do with any newer insurance or health and safety requirements (effectively the sanitisation and stripping all the fun out of everyday life)

2) Has the show run 'perfectly fine' for over 40 years? It has run for over 40 years but what do you mean by perfectly fine? Has there been no crime or disorder for 40 years?

I'm not in favour of the fence but this kind of loose thinking and lazy language really does nothing to advance the cause.

ETA *three* fallacies!

I agree with jimbarkanoodle .

Based on my experience of attending the Country fair for many years.

This isn't to be dismissed as loose thinking.

 

[discobastard]

I agree with jimbarkanoodle .

Based on my experience of attending the Country fair for many years.

This isn't to be dismissed as loose thinking.

In what way?

 

[Gramsci]

In what way?

Its long personal experience of the festival before the fence.

 

[discobastard]

Its long personal experience of the festival before the fence.

What are your experiences of the Country Show pre and post fence and how do they differ? Bearing in mind that you can't really compare one single year against 40?

And also to say that I don't support the fence either, so we don't need to argue about that.

 

[Gramsci]

What are your experiences of the Country Show pre and post fence and how do they differ? Bearing in mind that you can't really compare one single year against 40?

And also to say that I don't support the fence either, so we don't need to argue about that.

I didn't go when fence was put in. Fence put me off.

 

[newbie]

The costs of putting on the Country Show are escalating upwards at a disturbing trajectory. Those massive, park-spanning fences backed by a full, bag-rummaging security ensemble don't come cheap. The total loss to Lambeth for the 2017 show was around £350k - and that has apparently more than doubled to £800k, post fence.

Where did FoBP get that 800k figure from? I've been poking around Lambeth Country Show, in particular looking at the published costs for 2017 and 2018 which shows 'Total cost to the council' of £358,280 and £627,250, so an increase of just over 1/4 million, but not more than doubling.

Of that the major increases were:
entertainment 26k
Infrastructure/fencing/trackway 45k
sanitary facilities 25k
security 68k
traffic management 40k

Are the 2016 figures available anywhere? Before the superfence and alcohol searches. I wonder what the the infrastructure, security and traffic management costs were.

 

[editor]

I didn't go when fence was put in. Fence put me off.

I did and it was fucking rubbish compared to the year before - and that wasn't just my opinion. The fence and the security completely changes the vibe of the show, as has Lambeth's recent policy of advertising it all over London:

Lambeth also carried out a visitor survey which reveal significant drops in satisfaction levels which it anticipated as a result of changes to the show.

In 2017 75% of people surveyed rated the show as Very Good, which dropped to 24% in 2018.

Only 47% of people said they would return next year compared to 91% in 2017.

Lambeth Country Show 2019 stays free but controversial fence to remain as satisfaction levels plummet

 

[teuchter]

Where did FoBP get that 800k figure from? I've been poking around Lambeth Country Show, in particular looking at the published costs for 2017 and 2018 which shows 'Total cost to the council' of £358,280 and £627,250, so an increase of just over 1/4 million, but not more than doubling.

Of that the major increases were:
entertainment 26k
Infrastructure/fencing/trackway 45k
sanitary facilities 25k
security 68k
traffic management 40k

Are the 2016 figures available anywhere? Before the superfence and alcohol searches. I wonder what the the infrastructure, security and traffic management costs were.

There's reference here to the budget for the 2011 show being £322,000:

Council propose September dates for Lambeth Country Show

And then the budget for the 2012 show being £400,000

Lambeth Country Show confirmed with £400k budget

But is the 'cost' or 'losses' the budget minus revenue? That article implies a £400k budget with £100k hoped to be recuperated from fees - which would indicate a 'cost' of £300k.

Is FOBP's £800k number perhaps the 'budget' prior to revenue being subtracted from it?

 

[newbie]

There's reference here to the budget for the 2011 show being £322,000:

Council propose September dates for Lambeth Country Show

And then the budget for the 2012 show being £400,000

Lambeth Country Show confirmed with £400k budget

But is the 'cost' or 'losses' the budget minus revenue? That article implies a £400k budget with £100k hoped to be recuperated from fees - which would indicate a 'cost' of £300k.

Is FOBP's £800k number perhaps the 'budget' prior to revenue being subtracted from it?

cheers. The overall cost in 2017 was 691,000 rising to almost exactly 1 million in 2018.


following up those links, I noticed the attendance estimates appear to be dropping
2011, 200,000
2015, 160,000
2017, 150,000
2018, 'over 100,000'

 

[editor]

cheers. The overall cost in 2017 was 691,000 rising to almost exactly 1 million in 2018.


following up those links, I noticed the attendance estimates appear to be dropping
2011, 200,000
2015, 160,000
2017, 150,000
2018, 'over 100,000'

That shitty fence and bag probing security put a lot of people off. Loads of old school Brixtonites I know boycotted the show and it used to be one of their real annual highlights. Lambeth have fucked it just like they fucked the fireworks.

Lambeth Country Show boycott in response to the Great Brockwell Wall, booze ban, body and bag searches

 

[newbie]

That shitty fence and bag probing security put a lot of people off. Loads of old school Brixtonites I know boycotted the show and it used to be one of their real annual highlights. Lambeth have fucked it just like they fucked the fireworks.

Lambeth Country Show boycott in response to the Great Brockwell Wall, booze ban, body and bag searches

yes. I didn't go either.

Since they started calling themselves a Co-operative Council in 2010 or so they've managed to more than double the overall costs while halving the attendance and seeing the satisfaction levels plummet. They're good, aren't they.