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Reveal yourself! (Brixton area residents only)

  • BME; lived here 10 years or more; income less than 20k/yr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • BME; lived here 10 years or more; income 20k/yr or more

    Votes: 2 2.8%
  • BME; lived here less than 10 years; income less than 20k/yr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • BME; lived here less than 10 years; income 20k/yr or more

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • White; lived here 10 years or more; income less than 20k/yr

    Votes: 14 19.7%
  • White; lived here 10 years or more; income 20k/yr or more

    Votes: 17 23.9%
  • White; lived here less than 10 years; income less than 20k/yr

    Votes: 7 9.9%
  • White; lived here less than 10 years; income 20k/yr or more

    Votes: 28 39.4%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 2 2.8%

  • Total voters
    71
Mr BC said:
Hmmm, Coldharbour. That well known marginal ward where Labour squeaked home with a mere 58% of the vote and which was the ONLY ward to stay Labour when the Tories won every single ward in Lambeth in 1968. If this is the Green Party's best chance I'd be keeping the (organic) champagne on ice if I was you.

Green Party Beats LibDems and Conservatives:
HERNE HILL
1 Lab 42%
2 Grn 24%
3 LD 18%
4 Con 16%
BRIXTON HILL
1 Lab 44%
2 Grn 18%
3 LD 14%
4 SA 12%
5 Con 11%
TULSE HILL
1 Lab 51%
2 Grn 18%
3 LD 14%
4 Con 10%
5 SA 08%
COLDHARBOUR
1 Lab 57%
2 Grn 14%
3 LD 12%
4 SA 09%
5 Con 06%
6 Ind 03%

Green Party beats the Conservatives
FERNDALE
1 Lab 56%
2 LD 18%
3 Grn 17%
4 Con 09%
STREATHAM HILL
1 LD 48%
2 Lab 25%
3 Grn 15%
4 Con 11%
STREATHAM WELLS
1 LD 58%
2 Lab 22%
3 Grn 12%
4 Con 08%
LARKHALL
1 Lab 51%
2 LD 26%
3 Grn 11%
4 Con 08%
5 SA 05%
OVAL
1 LD 51%
2 Lab 25%
3 Grn 11%
4 Con 08%
5 SA 05%
VASSALL
1 LD 41%
2 Lab 35%
3 Grn 11%
4 Con 08%
5 SA 05%
ST.LEONARD’S
1 LD 52%
2 Lab 28%
3 Grn 10%
4 Con 10%
STOCKWELL
1 LD 50%
2 Lab 35%
3 Grn 10%
4 Con 05%
THORNTON
1 LD 43%
2 Lab 39%
3 Grn 10%
4 Con 09%
KNIGHT’S HILL
1 LD 45%
2 Lab 33%
3 Grn 09%
4 Con 09%
5 SocAll 04%
PRINCE’S
1 LD 45%
2 Lab 38%
3 Grn 08%
4 Con 08%

Green Party beats the LibDems
CLAPHAM TOWN
1 Lab 39%
2 Con 35%
3 Grn 13%
4 LD 12%
5 Ind 01%
GIPSY HILL
1 Con 53%
2 Lab 33%
3 Grn 07%
4 LD 07%

Green Party is the "fourth party"
THURLOW PARK
1 Con 51%
2 Lab 22%
3 LD 13%
4 Grn 12%
5 UKIP 02%
CLAPHAM COMMON
1 LD 32%
2 Lab 32%
3 Con 26%
4 Grn 10%
STREATHAM SOUTH
1 Lab 40%
2 LD 34%
3 Con 18%
4 Grn 07%

The Conservatives beat the Greens in 5 wards.
The Greens beat the Conservatives in 15 wards.
 
TeeJay said:
The Conservatives beat the Greens in 5 wards.
The Greens beat the Conservatives in 15 wards.
And who's running the council and who isn't?

Greens are a typical portest vote in Lambeth. Though, of course, they needn't be forever.
 
So, <takes breath in preparation of being flamed for being an ignoramus>, who is in charge of Lambeth? Fuck, I don't even know who my councillors are, let alone the party in charge or the name of the leader.
 
Orang Utan said:
So, <takes breath in preparation of being flamed for being an ignoramus>, who is in charge of Lambeth?
Hatboy. IntoStella is mayor and Anna Key is leader of the (permanent) oppostion.
 
TeeJay said:
The Conservatives beat the Greens in 5 wards.
The Greens beat the Conservatives in 15 wards.
OL! Nice one, Teejay. :D

Orang -- there are

27 Lib Dems
7 Tories
and 29 Labour councillors.

The LDs and the tories are in a deeply unholy alliance, giving them a majority of five.

Totally undemocratic, of course. ;)
 
Ol Nick said:
Hatboy. IntoStella is mayor and Anna Key is leader of the (permanent) oppostion.
I've been called a 'mayor' before, but usually spelled differently. ;) ;)

But yes, that is a highly accurate analysis of our relationship. Have you been spying on us? :p
 
Blagsta said:
Its fuck all, believe me. Considerably more than the dole obviously, but its not much at all, especially in London.

It's not the dole or a salary you know. The sort of people I've always been mates with would be nightclub workers or artists who get some work for awhile then not. Or some people with problems, sometimes mental health, who are on the sick. Or people who beg, or weed sellers. Or people who were famous for five minutes, or perform somehow. Singers, painters, etc. Stuff like that.

Look at Mike/Editor - He might do well as a creative person sometimes and then have little work. He doesn't have a salary atall.

So, Blagsta, don't be so conventional. Don't assume it's a salary or the dole. That isn't/wasn't my world.
 
hatboy said:
It's not the dole or a salary you know. The sort of people I've always been mates with would be nightclub workers or artists who get some work for awhile then not. Or some people with problems, sometimes mental health, who are on the sick. Or people who beg, or weed sellers. Or people who were famous for five minutes, or perform somehow. Singers, painters, etc. Stuff like that.

Look at Mike/Editor - He might do well as a creative person sometimes and then have little work. He doesn't have a salary atall.

So, Blagsta, don't be so conventional. Don't assume it's a salary or the dole. That isn't/wasn't my world.

I do know. I've freelanced myself y'know. :rolleyes:
 
IntoStella said:
If you consider 20 grand to be a typical yuppie's salary.

In Bratislava, perhaps. ;) ;)

Actually 20 grand is quite a good representative salary. Typical (ie 50% of people earn less than this) salaries for a full time job in the UK are about £22,000. However a high percentage of people freelance, are part time, full time carers, pensioners (two thirds of whom have incomes of less than £7,000 a year), students or have long term illness (mental or physical). Of a population of 60m or so only 30m have sufficient incomes to pay income tax.

The upshot of that is that typical household income (ie the income of the household as a whole) in 2002/3 (the latest year for which we have data) is £18,048.

If you just take households headed by a non retired person the typical income is £20,324, for retired households it's £13,527.

Remember that on a reasonably wide definition of 'professional' the majority of the working population are professional - so £20,000 a year is a fair approximation I reckon.

For these statistics and many others see the wonderful 'The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes 2002/3' released by National Statistics last Thursday.

<retreats to hole to crunch numbers>
 
Ol Nick said:
And who's running the council and who isn't?

Greens are a typical portest vote in Lambeth. Though, of course, they needn't be forever.
Yoiu can dress it up however you want, but I think I haver demonstrated that the Green Party is more relevant to most people and neighbourhoods in Lambeth than the Conservatives, and gets just as many votes. It has been correctly pointed out that the Greens do not currently have any "safe seats" like the Conservatives do in Gypsy Hill and Thurlow Park, and it is also true to note that while the Greens hav beaten the LibDems and Conservatives in various wards, they didn't beat Labour anywhere - in fact ironically they got their best results in the strongest Labour wards.

However, with disaffection with Labour running at its highest since 1997 it would seem that the Greens are well placed to take advantage of former Labour voters who are angry about the war etc. There is also the "snow-ball effect" where as soon as people realise that the Green Party is the second or third placed party in the ward, they will start transferring their votes across to vote tactically, or because they realise that it is a viable option *not* a protest vote.

Finally, I don't think anyone who believe in democracy should be bragging about having Lambeth council seats while the Greens have none, in the face of the percentage of Lambeth residents who voted Green, which over thye whole area averaged about 13% of the electorate and under a strict PR system would yield 8 seats. In fact if the local elections were PR like the London and Euro ones, even with the same results, Lambeth council would look like this:

Lab: 24
LD: 21
Con: 10
Green: 8
NB: At least 32 is needed to pass legislation and 24 + 8 = 32

You might say that Green is a 'protest' vote, but we currently have a Green Deputy Mayor of London and the arrival of Greens in power actually shakes up the "business-as-usual" politics and tired old policies. Does anyone think that the London congestion charge would have been possible unless politicians had seen how strong the Green vote was at the ballot box? Likewise the disaster of homelessness and social housing need to be really sorted out and the "the big three" need to be shaken up and fear for their seats. We need some *radical* policies for some very serious problems - both in London and around the whole planet, and you just won't get them from the same old Lab/Lib/Con monolith.
 
Bob said:
Actually 20 grand is quite a good representative salary. Typical (ie 50% of people earn less than this) salaries for a full time job in the UK are about £22,000.

Is that £22k not the UK average, rather than the median - otherwise wages are going up a pace?

Plus - will be appreciably higher in London, was about £29k in London when UK was £20k (see above).
 
pooka said:
Is that £22k not the UK average, rather than the median - otherwise wages are going up a pace?

Plus - will be appreciably higher in London, was about £29k in London when UK was £20k (see above).

According to the 2003 New Earnings Survey (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/nes1003.pdf) typical (ie median) full time earnings were £394.30 per week - £20,503 per year.

Yes it will be higher in London - but typical wages aren't provided for regions, only average wages. You can't really extrapolate from them sensibly since the London average (which is 34% above the UK one) is pulled up by City bonuses and the like...
 
Bob said:
You can't really extrapolate from them sensibly since the London average (which is 34% above the UK one) is pulled up by City bonuses and the like...
I wish!!! :D

I bet minnie the minx isn't including her hefty City bonuses in her claimed salary ;) .. Gwan! Fess up! What about the fatcat corporate backhanders, Minxy?? ;)
 
Weekly wage levels/hourly rates
.....................................London................UK
.............................Male...Female...Male.....Female
Median wage........£485.00..£383.90..£386.60..£293.60
Average wage... ...£593.00..£434.30..£453.30..£337.60
Average hourly rate £14.82....£11.66....£11.00....£8.98
Source: New Earnings Survey 2000


Edited to say: bugger - where's the more recent median data - it's not in the obvious places on the ONS website.

Edited again to add: all such data should be treated with caution

Edited for a third time to add:
[In a spirit of strict non partisanship] Hurrah for Simon Hughes - he has asked a relevant recent Parliamentary question (go to column 652W):

Full time employees gross weekly earnings (£) for Lambeth, April 2003
Male employees
10% earned less than ***
Median £500.7
10% earned more than ***

Female employees
10 % earned less than £286.2
Median £467.4
10 % earned more than £761.2

All employees
10% earned less than £269.8
median £488.5
10% earned more than £960.9

*** = Data suppressed due to confidentiality or quality
 
Bob said:
According to the 2003 New Earnings Survey (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/nes1003.pdf) typical (ie median) full time earnings were £394.30 per week - £20,503 per year.

Yes it will be higher in London - but typical wages aren't provided for regions, only average wages. You can't really extrapolate from them sensibly since the London average (which is 34% above the UK one) is pulled up by City bonuses and the like...

Yep, I hadn't spotted you'd qualified with full time with the added confusion that the median full time earnings (£20.5k above) is not so different from the average across full and part time, £394.7 pw or £20.5k pa!

But I recall that about a year ago the average (full + part time) for London was about £29k, though I don't have a source for it.
 
An "average" figure can disguise a very polarised population with a few high earners and lots of low earners or people on benefits. It is useful therefore to look at how many households in Lambeth fall into the definition of "income poverty" (below 60% of median income)
a single person living alone is deemed to be in income poverty if they receive less than £107 a week after tax and national insurance contributions (but before meeting housing costs). A couple with two children aged five and 11 would need an income of more than £257 a week to place the household above the income poverty threshold
source: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/economy/docs/london_divided_all.pdf
Deducting housing costs from disposable incomes alters the entire income distribution, one of the effects of which is to reduce income poverty thresholds. On an AHC [after housing costs] basis, a single person living alone would need a disposable cash income of £87 a week to be above the low-income threshold ... while a household with two adults and two children would need an income of £225 a week...
53% of children and 30% of working age adults in Inner London fall into this latter category (after housing costs). I am still trying to find a figure for Lambeth, but I suspect once you have got rid of the richer inner London boroughs (Westminster & K&C) the figure wll be even higher. If we are talking about "Brixton" then it will be even higher than the Lambeth average since the most deprived wards are clustered around the centre of the borough. I really don't believe some of the people bandying about figures for average earnings of people who happen to be in full time work, when there are a hell of a lot of people unemployed, studying, in part-time work or working in the informal sector. I think some people here are being almost totally detached from reality. :confused:
Deprivation indicators
There is no consensus about what is meant by deprivation or poverty or about the best methods or indicators to use to measure them. The various studies carried out over the last thirty years have been dominated by
the official measures and indices conducted for governmental purposes, including the distribution of funds and targeting initiatives. The picture of deprivation within London has remained remarkably consistent, although there is some variation in the detail. On all the measures reviewed, deprivation is concentrated in the eastern and southern parts of Inner London, with wards in Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Newham, Lambeth and Southwark featuring strongly among the most deprived.
Lambeth has an unemployment rate of 9.6% (UK=5.3%) and it has 27,615 Income Support claimants (pensioners/disabled/lone parents/other) which is 13.2% of the adult (18+) population (this includes 7,910 pensioners which is 24.4% of the over-60/65 in the borough). Lambeth also has 10,765 claiming Job Seekers Allowance (which is 5.9% of the 16-59/64 population). In Lambeth 22.6% of households are in receipt of Housing Benefits (of which 17.2% are on HB and IS/JSA). 41.7% of Lambeth secondary school pupils are eligible for free school meals (cf. average for England = 15.8%) [2001] and only 35.9% of 2ndary pupils get 5 A-C grade GCSEs (cf. England = 50%). [2001].

Average weekly rents* are £113.17 (£76.54 bedsit, £100.86 1 room, £118.53 2 room, £151.58 3 room, £143.03 4 plus rooms). [*in the private sector and as determined for the purposes of Housing Benefit, 2000/1.] and 9,913 (8.2%) of household dwellings are deemed "unfit" [2001]. The average house price in Lambeth is £228,904 (£455,569 detached, £351,343 semi, £279,853 terraced, £188,966 maisonette/flat). [2002]

All figures above from: "London Divided - Income inequality and poverty in the capital" http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/economy/london_divided.jsp

I can't actually seem to find an "average income" for Lambeth, but I think the above figures illustrate the dangers of simply using an "average" because a small number of high earners will skew the average disproportionately when compared to the (much larger) number of people on low incomes and benefits, and doesn't really represent a 'typical' resident - just a kind of half-way house between super-rich and the more 'typical' poor.
 
TeeJay said:
I can't actually seem to find an "average income" for Lambeth, but I think the above figures illustrate the dangers of simply using an "average" because a small number of high earners will skew the average disproportionately when compared to the (much larger) number of people on low incomes and benefits, and doesn't really represent a 'typical' resident - just a kind of half-way house between super-rich and the more 'typical' poor.

Yup - hence the use of the median (although for any stable distribution there will be a characteristic relationship between the mean and the median)

Useful link though, thanks for that.
 
I must say I'm finding all these statistics and talk of medians and whatnot very offputting. What you on about? Can't we have some planning bore instead? :(





;)
 
IntoStella said:
I must say I'm finding all these statistics and talk of medians and whatnot very offputting. What you on about? Can't we have some planning bore instead? :(

;)

But I think myself, Teejay & Pooka agree that 20 grand is a reasonable income... ;)
 
pooka said:
Yup - hence the use of the median (although for any stable distribution there will be a characteristic relationship between the mean and the median)

Useful link though, thanks for that.
Sorry but the median also doesn't (IMO) represent the "typical" resident either. The typical resident is represented far better by the "mode".

The bell curve of the UK population can be seen here:
Institute of Fiscal Studies, "Poverty and Inequality in Britain, 2004"
http://www.ifs.org.uk/inequality/comm96.pdf
Look at page 17, figure 2.1

You can clearly see that the bell curve is skewed to the left (more poor than rich), which means that:

mean = £396pw (20,592 pa)
median = £323pw (16,796 pa)
mode = £230pw (11,960 pa)

I would argue that the mode is the highest point on the bell curve and is therefore the most "typical".

Using this graph I would propose four categories:

"Dirt Poor" (bottom 10%) = less than £110 pw (£5,720 pa)
"Poor" (below median) = £110 pw up to £16,796
"OK" (above median) = £16,796 to £33,800
"Rich" (top 10%) = £33,800 plus

It's worth noting that a single young person on JSA (c.£50) and HB (c.£60) would just be on £110 pw, although they would be having to survive on £7 per day after rent. An older person on Disability Benefits or with dependents might be getting c.£80 plus c.£70 (HB) so would be on £150 pw. It is worth noting however that there are plenty of people who don't get the benefits owed to them for many reasons and a lot of people who are barely scraping by. It often doesn't help much if you get part-time or low paid work since you will often lose benefits and free services and often you get hit with emergency tax codes or an agency or company will screw around with hours and pay. Many people are self-employed and so don't have regular income, and they may well be paying off large debts on basic items such as furniture etc. The bottom line is that there are a vast number of people who are nowhere near a financial comfort zone - in fact I'd say the bulk of the population. If £20,000 is really a 'comfort level' then only 33% of people live in households like this, in Inner London the figure is lower, and in Lambeth this figure will probably be even lower. £20k therefore probably puts you into the top 20% of the Brixton population, although this is complicated massively by the whole issue of housing and propery ownership. It probably isn't any wonder that poor people who have exercised a RTB or have otherwise obtained/got a mortgage on/inherited a property in Brixton are cashing in the value and moving out to a less trendy area.

NB: This is actually an "equivalent household income" figure so it will be different depending on how many adults and children are in the household. The Institute of Fiscal Studies has also got a link for people to calculate "Where Do I Fit In?": www.ifs.org.uk/wheredoyoufitin

I would therefore say that in a UK context £20,000 is middle class and halfway on its way to 'rich', and in the context of Lambeth, where the population is much poorer than the UK average, £20,000 puts you firmly in a "rich" category, whichever way you look at it. I can only assume that people tend to only notice people who are richer than them, normally because that is what they aspire to, or are envious of. Having said that, with average house prices being super-ridiculous, you really need to be firmly in the top few percent of the population to be able to afford to buy a house in Lambeth, and with all the tax, bills, loss of benefits, long working hours and congestion on the public transport, I doubt that the extra money actually translates into that much higher quality of life. Time to ask some serious questions about the current economic model, and the "conventional wisdom" of the big three political parties maybe? ;)
 
TeeJay said:
Sorry but the median also doesn't (IMO) represent the "typical" resident either. The typical resident is represented far better by the "mode".
Depends what you want to do, and what sort of distribution you're dealing with, determines the most useful characteristic to use. The mode need not necessarilly be 'typical', in the common usage, just the most frequently occuring as a class ie the mode may be a small minority.

Equally, the median is a useful stable characteristic and a good measure of what in common parlance would be considered 'middling', which might be one notion of 'typical'.

Yeah - the IFS is a useful site; that's why I suggested it to you about a year ago when you were looking for links on tax ;) But aren't the figures you quote net of direct taxes (including council tax) whereas I would imagine the thread's poll would be interpreted as being based on gross income - it makes quite a difference. Conversely the IFS will most likely be looking at Household Income, whilst the thread is about individual posters.
 
Bob said:
But I think myself, Teejay & Pooka agree that 20 grand is a reasonable income... ;)
I never suggested that 20 grand was not a ''reasonable income''. I simply said that to suggest that someone living in Brixton on 20 grand a year was a yuppie gentrifier is patent nonsense because they would struggle to afford to rent in the private sector, let alone buy property.

This is borne out by pooka's assertion that the average wage in London is, in fact, about 29 grand. The cost of living reflects this average, does it not, so somebody on 20 grand (especially if they don't have social housing and/or didn't buy when property was cheap) is not going to feel very rich, given that they are a hefty nine thou a year below the average income.

And anybody on much below 20 grand simply would not be living in Brixton unless they had social housing, had bought cheap property two decades ago or were living with 10 other people in a crummy student flat. It's just not economically possible.
 
But I think the point of £20k was just a breakpoint - and the fact that it's 'get by on'able means it probably is. And there does seem to be a difference between the longer established and the newcomers, although whether it's in any way significant is another matter.
 
pooka said:
Depends what you want to do, and what sort of distribution you're dealing with, determines the most useful characteristic to use. The mode need not necessarilly be 'typical', in the common usage, just the most frequently occuring as a class ie the mode may be a small minority.

Equally, the median is a useful stable characteristic and a good measure of what in common parlance would be considered 'middling', which might be one notion of 'typical'.
So what do you think is the best regarding UK income then?
But aren't the figures you quote net of direct taxes (including council tax) whereas I would imagine the thread's poll would be interpreted as being based on gross income - it makes quite a difference.
They don't say they are.
Conversely the IFS will most likely be looking at Household Income, whilst the thread is about individual posters.
Equivalent household income can encompass both individual people, couples, people with children and so forth. It is a method that is meant to give a good indication of disposable income. If a poster here is a single person then their income is directly comparable to the figures given. If they are a couple with kids then their higher income will be adjusted downwards to compensate for the fact that the money has to support two adults and several kids etc. Its all a bit complicated, but they are the best fugures that I have come across so far.

I would prefer to be able to get the straightforward income figures, and if anyone knows where these might be found I will go and do some crunching on them too.
 
TeeJay said:
Yoiu can dress it up however you want, but I think I haver demonstrated that the Green Party is more relevant to most people and neighbourhoods in Lambeth than the Conservatives, and gets just as many votes. It has been correctly pointed out that the Greens do not currently have any "safe seats" like the Conservatives do in Gypsy Hill and Thurlow Park, and it is also true to note that while the Greens hav beaten the LibDems and Conservatives in various wards, they didn't beat Labour anywhere - in fact ironically they got their best results in the strongest Labour wards.

Finally, I don't think anyone who believe in democracy should be bragging about having Lambeth council seats while the Greens have none, in the face of the percentage of Lambeth residents who voted Green, which over thye whole area averaged about 13% of the electorate and under a strict PR system would yield 8 seats. In fact if the local elections were PR like the London and Euro ones, even with the same results, Lambeth council would look like this:

Lab: 24
LD: 21
Con: 10
Green: 8
NB: At least 32 is needed to pass legislation and 24 + 8 = 32

No one suggested the Greens were irrelevant, just that they are unlikely to win any seats - which I stand by.

Realtively few seats in Lambeth are actually competitive. This is especially so in Brixton where most are safe Labour. In these seats neither the Tories nor Lib Dems do anything other than have names on the ballot paper. Consequently their votes are very small.

The other factor affecting the overall share of the votes is the tendency for the anti-Labour vote to flock to either a Tory or a Lib Dem depending on who can best beat Labour. The only seat where both the Tories and Lib Dems slug it out is Clapham Common. Hence, the overall percentage shares of the votes of these two parties are distorted. This particularly affects the Tories because in Streatham, traditionally an area of strong Tory support, the Lib Dems have stitched up the anti-Labour vote.

If Lambeth had a PR election system, I strongly suspect the outcome would still have been a Lib Dem/Tory coalition in 2002. There would certainly have been Green councillors on the council though had we PR, I entirely accept that.

The Greens are always going to be fucked under first-past-the-post because their vote is relatively evenly spread across the borough and is strongest in Labour's safest wards. Personally, I look forward to the Greens picking up lots of disaffected Labour voters (which, purely coincidentally, will lead to more Tories and Lib Dems coming through the middle and being elected ;)
 
Mr BC said:
The other factor affecting the overall share of the votes is the tendency for the anti-Labour vote to flock to either a Tory or a Lib Dem depending on who can best beat Labour.
Tactical voting? In four wards the Green Party is the best placed to beat Labour, and if and when people realise this they may vote Green even more then..
Personally, I look forward to the Greens picking up lots of disaffected Labour voters (which, purely coincidentally, will lead to more Tories and Lib Dems coming through the middle and being elected ;)
It is worth noting that in places like Vassal, Thornton, Knight's Hill, Princes and Clapham Common the combined Green and Labour vote would have beaten the LibDems. In Herne Hill and Streatham South the combined Green and LibDem vote could have beaten Labour (and in Brixton Hill the combined Green, LibDem and Soc.All. vote). In Clapham Town there was only 4% between Labour and Conservative, and the Greens got 13%.

Maybe it would be worth Lambeth Green Party assessing both Labour and the Lib Dems in the future in terms of policy commitments and deciding if it might be worth [standing/not standing] candidates in some of these most marginal seats to favour the most "green" and progressive of the two? Somehow I doubt this though since people are voting Green as a "curse on all your houses" - they are fed up with the mainstream "business-as-usual" politics, and there is much to be gained in building up local awareness of the Green Party and its radical policies, so that PR-based elections (London and Euros) benefit. This means fighting every seat in every election, and giving everyone the choice to vote Green whenever possible.

It is also worth noting that while you say that the Lib Dems and Conservatives don't really fight every ward, it is worth noting that so far the Green Party has managed to get these levels of votes while only really campaigning seriously in one or two wards. You mentioned Clapham Common - the Green Party didn't really target it at all but still managed to get 10% of the vote. With the ever increasing media exposure for the Green Party, more prominent people joining it and more local members, activists and money/resources now coming in, I can see things changing over the coming years.

(but of course I would say that wouldn't I! .... under one month 'till the elections and counting! ;) )
 
TeeJay said:
So what do you think is the best regarding UK income then?

I'd say the median is the best single measure in this context.

TeeJay said:
They don't say they are.

para1.1 said:
These use weekly household income from all sources, including
benefits and net of direct taxes (income tax, National Insurance and council tax) as a
measure of living standards.

On that basis, you're median of £17k net may well equate to a median of £20k+ gross (but nontheless isn't comparable with Bob's figures which are just for earnings).


'Equivalent household income' - yes, that does cloud the issue. This appears to adjust incomes to reflect some measure of need, based on number of individuals and age, because the report are trying to assess inequality. I guess to be comparable with the poll here, posters would need to 'equivalise' their incomes before voting!

TeeJay said:
I would prefer to be able to get the straightforward income figures, and if anyone knows where these might be found I will go and do some crunching on them too.

The IFS appear to be using figures originating from the Family Resource Survey - which seems to have replaced the Family Expenditure Survey. There's a report full of tables here, but for some reason it screws up my copy of Acrobat, with digits jiumbled up, so I don't know if it has what you're looking for.

Nothing's simple! ;)
 
Shall I set a separate 'Gentrification, Style Bars. Yuppification and Family Expenditure Survey' table up at tonight's Offline for a live version of this thread?

;)
 
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