Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins

[teuchter]

Ok. It's all my fault, not Lambeth's.
They clearly had no choice but to bow to the pressure of me and a bunch of people like me.

I've made it pretty clear that I think Lambeth messed up. They messed up with the consultation, they messed up with the implementation and they messed up by bowing to pressure once a significant amount of time and money had already been invested in the experiment.

But it's convenient for those ideologically opposed to the scheme to use Lambeth's incompetency as a scapegoat. I don't think you're one of the pro-motoring lobby who is doing this - but I do feel your attitude has been to throw the baby out with the bathwater, rather than trying to take the opportunity to make the most of this scheme given all the effort already invested in it.

 

[bimble]

I've made it pretty clear that I think Lambeth messed up. They messed up with the consultation, they messed up with the implementation and they messed up by bowing to pressure once a significant amount of time and money had already been invested in the experiment.

But it's convenient for those ideologically opposed to the scheme to use Lambeth's incompetency as a scapegoat. I don't think you're one of the pro-motoring lobby who is doing this - but I do feel your attitude has been to throw the baby out with the bathwater, rather than trying to take the opportunity to make the most of this scheme given all the effort already invested in it.

Thanks for noticing that I'm not Jeremy Clarkson.
I don't want to throw the baby out. This particular bathwater was useless though.

I really hope that this board might soon become a place where people discuss Loughborough Junction Public Space Improvements.

Here's an idea for instance, taken straight form Lambeth Cyclists website, who are pretty magnanimous in their defeat:
'We will be pressing Lambeth to introduce alternative measures such as child-friendly segregated cycle tracks on Loughborough Road and measures to reduce traffic on Hinton Road that will make the roads safer and continue to encourage more people to walk and cycle in the area.'

 

[irf520]

Thanks for noticing that I'm not Jeremy Clarkson.
Here's an idea for instance, taken straight form Lambeth Cyclists website, who are pretty magnanimous in their defeat:
'We will be pressing Lambeth to introduce alternative measures such as child-friendly segregated cycle tracks on Loughborough Road and measures to reduce traffic on Hinton Road that will make the roads safer and continue to encourage more people to walk and cycle in the area.'

Is that being magnanimous? Sounds more like they want another bite at the cherry.

 

[bimble]

Is that being magnanimous? Sounds more like they want another bite at the cherry.

Personally I'm up for proper cycle lanes , would help me as a scaredy cyclist. Mostly though I wanted to say that I'm not against change , or babies.

 

[irf520]

I was more referring to the "reduce traffic on" (I assume that means close) Hinton Rd.
We already know that would have been the next target if they'd got away with the LR closure. This looks like they're still trying to get their "cell" but formed in a different order.

 

[teuchter]

Thanks for noticing that I'm not Jeremy Clarkson.
I don't want to throw the baby out. This particular bathwater was useless though.

We agree the bathwater was useless. The point is, the baby has now been thrown out too.

The baby was the opportunity to see the real world results of a fairly ambitious traffic restriction scheme.

Of course we can now start to discuss whittled-down alternatives. But that discussion could have been a lot more productive and well informed if the experiment had been completed.

As it is, we are probably further back than we were before the trial. We can discuss those whittled-down alternatives but without the evidence that could have come out of the trial, which could have helped to argue in favour of certain measures short of full closure. Any reduced measures are also going to find opposition, repeating all the same arguments that ignore the kind of evidence and precedent I've been trying to offer up on this thread. Look at irf520 above - he's started already with the "thin end of the wedge" line, and it's clear from his previous comments that he isn't, for example, interested in the "traffic evaporation" phenomenon - something we could have demonstrated really happens "in the real world" by means of results from the experimental period.

 

[bimble]

We agree the bathwater was useless. The point is, the baby has now been thrown out too.

The baby was the opportunity to see the real world results of a fairly ambitious traffic restriction scheme.

Of course we can now start to discuss whittled-down alternatives. But that discussion could have been a lot more productive and well informed if the experiment had been completed.

As it is, we are probably further back than we were before the trial. We can discuss those whittled-down alternatives but without the evidence that could have come out of the trial, which could have helped to argue in favour of certain measures short of full closure. Any reduced measures are also going to find opposition, repeating all the same arguments that ignore the kind of evidence and precedent I've been trying to offer up on this thread. Look at irf520 above - he's started already with the "thin end of the wedge" line, and it's clear from his previous comments that he isn't, for example, interested in the "traffic evaporation" phenomenon - something we could have demonstrated really happens "in the real world" by means of results from the experimental period.

I think Crispy expressed the situation very well when he said, and I quote.

What a total fucking shambles

 

[irf520]

... the "thin end of the wedge" line ...

I'm not making anything up. I'm merely taking what has previously been said at face value.

As it is, we are probably further back than we were before the trial.

Yes. A lot of unnecessary ill feeling has been created and nothing has really been gained.

 

[bimble]

Yes. A lot of unnecessary ill feeling has been created and nothing has really been gained.

I've met lots of people locally whom I'd probably otherwise never have met, and discovered the mixed blessings of U75. So that's something at least.

 

[irf520]

I've met lots of people locally whom I'd probably otherwise never have met, and discovered the mixed blessings of U75. So that's something at least.

 

[Gramsci]

The problem with this scheme was it was purely based on ideology and didn't solve any real world problems. As far as I remember there was never a problem with congestion on Loughborough Road. It was busy, yes, but not congested. So why push traffic from there into the centre of Brixton which does have a problem with congestion? How could you defend such a choice?

Clearly you havent tried to get down Loughborough road from Fiveways to Brixton road in the morning.

As for ideology- I expect a comment like that from you. For you the supporter of the motorist are just as ideological as anyone else. Do I need to quote your earlier post? Its been put up here several times.

 

[Gramsci]

Now that it’s been scrapped there seems to no longer be any scrutiny of the actual closures we’ve been discussing here for months and instead the whole thing's being painted as a noble progressive environmental measure that’s been defeated by a bunch of vociferous motorists. And that’s just wrong.

Lambeth Council have made a complete pigs ear of the whole thing from start to finish, it's been a total shambles at every point from its inception to its scrapping, with no clarity whatsoever as to why they introduced it, why they decided to close the roads they closed, what the effects of it actually were or why exactly they have now scrapped it.
So what exactly has been lost or won is totally unclear to me - but it is clear that the people who feel they are the 'losers' in this decision are ignoring all the specifics and just seeing it as a black & white cars versus clean air issue eg .
.

Not how I saw your position change from a lets see how it goes to outright opposition.

The black and white issue for me is how those who were supporting it / giving it a chance were given a hard time on and off boards.

You for example at one point accused teuchter of working for the Council.

People being barred from the Hero of Switzerland - which several people told me about.

The worst being accusing people of being middle class ie for example cyclists being "middle class". Something you took part in.

All part of the rough and tumble of the boards. But I could do without the reasonable tone now you have got your way.

 

[Gramsci]

I was more referring to the "reduce traffic on" (I assume that means close) Hinton Rd.
We already know that would have been the next target if they'd got away with the LR closure. This looks like they're still trying to get their "cell" but formed in a different order.

Actually something that came up at one the meetings about LJ early on.

It got support from all sides as better alternative than "kettling" LJ estate. Why Lambeth didn’t look into it more I don’t know.

So to try rubbish this idea as yet another target of the ideological militant cyclists is wrong.

Also some of the LJ Estate residents I talked to wanted less traffic going through there estate but not done in the way it was. So Hinton road was alternative to reduce throught traffic.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes. A lot of unnecessary ill feeling has been created and nothing has really been gained.

You have your road open again. So you have gained something.

I see nothing in your posts here that you support making London a city not dominated by road traffic.

The growing opposition to schemes like this to at least attempt to reduce traffic is growing imo across London. This is a setback and will likely mean that Lambeth will give up on its policy to put pedestrians, cyclists and users of public transport first. So the gain is for the motorist.

 

[teuchter]

Actually something that came up at one the meetings about LJ early on.

It got support from all sides as better alternative than "kettling" LJ estate. Why Lambeth didn’t look into it more I don’t know.

So to try rubbish this idea as yet another target of the ideological militant cyclists is wrong.

Also some of the LJ Estate residents I talked to wanted less traffic going through there estate but not done in the way it was. So Hinton road was alternative to reduce throught traffic.

How would you stop people going round via Herne Hill Rd junction instead, though?

I reckon closing the bottom of Herne Hill Rd, and disallowing going straight across from Hinton Rd into Loughborough Rd (except for cyclists) would work better and create a more useful pedestrianised area.

I'd have a vested interest in that though as it would mean less traffic going past my door.

 

[critical1]

Lambeth has a certain philosophy....
With public money.....

 

[bimble]

Kind of yes but in a good way I thought (from Braithwaite's statement on Friday I mean) ?
"We will start with an open mind and welcome all ideas and contributions; there is money to spend from Transport for London, which if we work together and get it right, can make a positive and lasting difference to Loughborough Junction."

 

[Beasley]

I have found a parallel discussion about this on the East Dulwich Forum. It began in September just after the closures. Quite an interesting read as it covers the same spectrum of views but from further afield, so more on the route through LJ.

The East Dulwich Forum

 

[critical1]

Kind of yes but in a good way I thought (from Braithwaite's statement on Friday I mean) ?
"We will start with an open mind and welcome all ideas and contributions; there is money to spend from Transport for London, which if we work together and get it right, can make a positive and lasting difference to Loughborough Junction."

Sounds reminiscent of LJAG speak..
Maybe (Brainwash) Braithwaite should have said "We can come together, unite and create a foundation that will give us all a voice"

 

[bimble]

I'm trying to be LESS cynical after this whole experience.

 

[CH1]

I'm trying to be LESS cynical after this whole experience.

I would have thought the lesson is that council decisions can be changed - but in this case we are talking mainly about quality of life and little financial implication (for the council).

It will be a different story for council tenants whose estates are being redeveloped. Although that said it seems some areas such as Stockwell Park Estate and the Robsart Estate seem to have no problem accommodating 20 storey tower blocks largely devoted to private apartments.

BTW caught the P5 to Elephant today. It is very obvious cruising through on that bus that the Akerman Health Centre was built to provide services to the private Oval Quarter development - as marketed in Singapore etc. Pity we had to lose the only doctors surgery in Coldharbour Ward to attract in all the affluent oriental buy-to-let merchants.

 

[bimble]

I would have thought the lesson is that council decisions can be changed .

What i'm trying to do (in my head, in the attempt to be less and not more cynical) is to imagine that the change was made because they reviewed the evidence and drew a conclusion from that.
What I actually think is that they scrapped the trial because they counted the number of objectors and decided it wasn't worth losing their toehold up the greasy pole to westminster.
You're singularly well placed to opine on this so, what do you reckon?

 

[CH1]

What i'm trying to do (in my head, in the attempt to be less and not more cynical) is to imagine that the change was made because they reviewed the evidence and drew a conclusion from that.
What I actually think is that they scrapped the trial because they counted the number of objectors and decided it wasn't worth losing their toehold up the greasy pole to westminster.
You're singularly well placed to opine on this so, what do you reckon?

I think that Rachel Heywood particularly and Matt Parr also indicated they had no confidence in the changes - on the basis that constituents were largely opposed. I would imagine that they thought that if people did not want the changes they should not be imposed.

I don't see any of the Coldharbour councillors as ambitious young new Labour types hungry for constituencies - they seem altogether too mellow for that.

 

[Gramsci]

I think that Rachel Heywood particularly and Matt Parr also indicated they had no confidence in the changes - on the basis that constituents were largely opposed. I would imagine that they thought that if people did not want the changes they should not be imposed.

I don't see any of the Coldharbour councillors as ambitious young new Labour types hungry for constituencies - they seem altogether too mellow for that.

Rachel did tell me now she is no longer in Cabinet she is much more free to take up issues in her Ward and express an opinion. I have seen her do it at meetings about Rec.

Not sure about mellow but there has been distinct change in Coldharbour Ward Cllrs. There are almost becoming an opposition in absence of any LDs. Which is surprise as Coldharbour Ward was always ward where Labour would put loyalists up for election. As its sure bet win.

There views on Libraries, Leisure centres etc also appear to be out of line with the ruling group.

Get feeling from some of the things they have said recently that they feel the less well off population of Coldharbour Ward ( which is majority despite the image that central Brixton projects) views do not get represented enough. That they see with all the "austerity" the majority of there constituents getting hammered.

 

[CH1]

Not sure about mellow

Compared to Matthew Bennett or Jane Edbrooke?

 

[teuchter]

So people, what things have you already done this week, that you couldn't have done while the closures were in, that have made your life better?

 

[editor]

Get feeling from some of the things they have said recently that they feel the less well off population of Coldharbour Ward ( which is majority despite the image that central Brixton projects) views do not get represented enough. That they see with all the "austerity" the majority of there constituents getting hammered.

That's about how I see it too. A lot of people I talk to on my estate feel that they've been forgotten by Labour who only seem interested in courting the incoming 'entrepreneurs' and all the nu-money.

 

[LadyV]

So people, what things have you already done this week, that you couldn't have done while the closures were in, that have made your life better?

Well technically they were only lifted this morning but if I'm honest, it didn't affect me that much either way. I'm primarily a pedestrian and the only difference I really noticed was an increase in nastiness of the air quality on CHL and Brixton Road. Those who live further up Loughborough Road might have noticed an improvement in air quality but I don't walk up that way very often so can't comment.

The one thing I will be interested in seeing is whether the removal of the road closures makes a difference to bus journeys as that was another area I'd noticed a difference in.

 

[bimble]

I'm looking forward to seeing this evening if they've remembered to take the 500 watt light bulbs out of the poles (the 8 foot tall ones which just had their 'no entry' red circles removed). Those have been lighting my flat for me all night and it will be a real joy when they're gone.

 

[teuchter]

Well technically they were only lifted this morning but if I'm honest, it didn't affect me that much either way.

Wasn't it you who said they felt "kettled"?

Did you feel less "kettled" this morning?

I'm keen to know what being un-kettled has opened up for you.