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Lisbon

Riklet said:
A week in Lisbon is easy without getting bored. How long did you decide in the end FridgeMagnet?

Night in Sintra, Cascais, more coast, suburbs, longer distance day trip or two somewhere would def keep you busy for 2 weeks I reckon!
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I went for five nights in the end. I wish I'd spent more time in Sintra—there's a lot there, and even if you just do a day trip from Lisbon my tip is to reserve the whole afternoon for Pena, because as well as the palace the park around it is huge.

The transport is good and very cheap, so I also wish I'd planned a few longer trips, but five nights isn't much for that if you also want to see the city properly. I could have spent two weeks but I'd have wanted to move around rather than just being based in Lisbon.
 
I am really beginning to love this city. Spent about Three weeks here in total so far, and plan to be here for most weekends over the next Six months to a year (possibly much longer). Finding more time to explore non-tourist Lisbon. The modern suburbs aren't really worth noting, but lesser known barrios not to far from the centre are great. I will post some insider pics and local knowledge as I slowly get my head around the very strange pronunciation of what should be a simple language for a Spanish speaker to pick-up.

Within the tourist centre Cais Sodre is the place to start a Friday evening presently. Close by Sau Paulo is my favourite central haunt. It is already gradually being gentrified, but there is still plenty of room for the likes of me. A couple of art bars remain fairly genuine. There are banners on many empty buildings encouraging squatters - a sure sign that prospectors are moving in. The interior design shops are already opening. This is the area between Barrio Alto and the bay/river at the bottom of the hill. Keep going west for a more local, tourist free vibe.

Be warned about the street sellers. They sell overpriced shit, and they can be very aggressive. Give a very clear 'no' Three times if you have to. If you express the slightest bit of interest you will quickly find yourself surrounded by half a dozen intimidating guys who will not let you leave until you have coughed up €40 at least. That usually means €40 for a Gramme of shit quality hash which should cost no more than €7 for very good quality. If you want to buy, ask discretely at likely bars before you have drunk too much.

Almost everyone speaks English, and are happy to use it.

Miradouro de Santa Catarina has a nice, relaxed party vibe with great views across the bay for a place to just chill in the evening with a few take-outs. From there, walk up the hill, away from the river, then down the hill still heading west to find something a little more authentic and more affordable for nightlife and interesting bars, independent shops, traditional stuff etc.

A fellow U75 poster was here a week, or so ago, but I doubt very much if he remembers anything. Especially not the Two nights in a row police told me to get him fucking well away, or we both spend a night in the cells :D I'm too old for that shit, my advice will come from someone who much prefers a peaceful, but fun night enjoying good food, drink and a small toke in a good atmosphere. Barrio Alto is my idea of hell. All stupidly drunk ERASMUS students - blood, puke and tears to wade through after 1AM.
 
Stanley Edwards said:
I am really beginning to love this city. Spent about Three weeks here in total so far, and plan to be here for most weekends over the next Six months to a year (possibly much longer). Finding more time to explore non-tourist Lisbon. The modern suburbs aren't really worth noting, but lesser known barrios not to far from the centre are great. I will post some insider pics and local knowledge as I slowly get my head around the very strange pronunciation of what should be a simple language for a Spanish speaker to pick-up.

Within the tourist centre Cais Sodre is the place to start a Friday evening presently. Close by Sau Paulo is my favourite central haunt. It is already gradually being gentrified, but there is still plenty of room for the likes of me. A couple of art bars remain fairly genuine. There are banners on many empty buildings encouraging squatters - a sure sign that prospectors are moving in. The interior design shops are already opening. This is the area between Barrio Alto and the bay/river at the bottom of the hill. Keep going west for a more local, tourist free vibe.

Be warned about the street sellers. They sell overpriced shit, and they can be very aggressive. Give a very clear 'no' Three times if you have to. If you express the slightest bit of interest you will quickly find yourself surrounded by half a dozen intimidating guys who will not let you leave until you have coughed up €40 at least. That usually means €40 for a Gramme of shit quality hash which should cost no more than €7 for very good quality. If you want to buy, ask discretely at likely bars before you have drunk too much.

Almost everyone speaks English, and are happy to use it.

Miradouro de Santa Catarina has a nice, relaxed party vibe with great views across the bay for a place to just chill in the evening with a few take-outs. From there, walk up the hill, away from the river, then down the hill still heading west to find something a little more authentic and more affordable for nightlife and interesting bars, independent shops, traditional stuff etc.

A fellow U75 poster was here a week, or so ago, but I doubt very much if he remembers anything. Especially not the Two nights in a row police told me to get him fucking well away, or we both spend a night in the cells :D I'm too old for that shit, my advice will come from someone who much prefers a peaceful, but fun night enjoying good food, drink and a small toke in a good atmosphere. Barrio Alto is my idea of hell. All stupidly drunk ERASMUS students - blood, puke and tears to wade through after 1AM.
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has no one ever pointed out to you the role of artists in the gentrification process?
 
Pickman's model said:
has no one ever pointed out to you the role of artists in the gentrification process?
Click to expand...

I always get there far too late to cash in. Either that, or never realise I am actually already there. When I was last in Granada I noticed the minimarket that was always good for out of hours beer had become an estate agents office. It is only now I have left Spain I understand I was actually pushed out.

There is no role to choose in life as an artist other than your own fucked-up route.

Anyways...

Back to Lisbon. A big thumbs up for Hostal Lisbon Calling if you are on a backpackers type budget and want a relatively quiet place to stay. Very nice. I can only fault the place for a lack of outdoors space. A problem if you are a smoker, or toker. Tiny balcony only, but fabulous kitchen if you like to cook as I do. Excellent location.

Tram 28 is known as 'the golden tram' because it goes through almost all of the old town. A nice casual tour for the very reasonable price of €1.45 for a single trip ticket. That is €1.45 for your trip, plus 50 Cents for your reusable/rechargeable card. Public transport here is excellent. A day ticket will cover you for Metro, buses, trams and even some ferries unlimited for 24 hours. It is a fantastic way to spend your day and explore all corners of the city. Highly recommended.
 
Going to have to mention the TimeOut market here.

Time Out Market Lisboa

Took a good look around this evening. I was mightily impressed by the free bathrooms and will undoubtedly be making good use of them in the future. Other than that; I hate the place. I love traditional market halls in Portugal. Every town, or city has one. They are about the most important building within any community. So, turning such places into branded nightmares is not for me.

However, I do understand why tourists love the McDonalds treatment. All English speaking environment in the middle of Lisbon punching belly blows to the traditional cafes and bars. I actually felt the threat of terrorism in that place. Perhaps I won't bother with the bogs after all. It is only 50 Cents for a comfortable crap in Cais Sodre station across the road.
 
I met someone this morning who I have met before in Santiago, Granada, Toulouse and now Lisbon. She said something I hadn't really considered. She said "it is becoming the new Barcelona". I sort of understand what she meant, but thankfully, it isn't IMO. Sure, it is commercial as fuck. People come here to get wasted. Architecturally, it is not far off Barcelona. But, it is still real.

Anyone can approach a bar/venue in the coolest parts of town with an idea, and the owners will listen. Money will not be mentioned. You can still make things happen here very easily. Whilst Barcelona and Berlin have died from stifling of Mummy and Daddy's credit cards, Lisbon is still happening for ordinary people like us. The mega money hasn't come here yet. There are still Thousands of empty buildings in the centre. There are very few thieves. Loads of pseudo dealers selling shit, but it is incredibly safe. Only Vienna compares as a European capital IME. Vienna may react (in opposition) well to the new government, or it may go stifled also.

Berlin had the coming down of the wall. Barcelona had the Olympics and Freddie Mercury. My feeling is that people should get to this city before Portugal win the World Cup, and do to Lisbon what the Brazilian football team did to Rio many years ago.

It is conference city. Hotel prices can triple overnight - book well in advance. Beds are not always cheap, but fucking hell: a fantastic traditional meal for just €6.50 in the city centre! Seriously good food. Caneca (Pint) from just €2.00. It has architecture, museums and galleries galore (I don't do them unless I am really bored and feeling rich), fantastic public transport, extra friendly locals, tolerant police, rich and varied bar scene, a beach, or Two, great climate... why hasn't it exploded before? It hasn't exploded, because there is no, or very little new money here.

Despite the very apparent commercial sell, sell, sell, it is actually still very real. The shit of everyday Lisbon is always close enough if you need a come down.

The story of a day in the life of a Tuk Tuk driver will come here another time. It is an interesting insight into touristic Lisbon. If you have a little understanding of what makes a city like this work day to day, it adds value to your own experience.

Pissing it down ATM. My first real Portuguese rain since June. Hopefully, that is an end to this years forest fires.
 
Mundo Fantastico da Sardinha :D This is brilliant. There is a little on my blog.

I am digging deep, little by little into 'Portugal Secreto'. I shall explain more another time. I'll try to get a photograph tomorrow to go with the Tuk Tuk driver story, because this is also quite brilliant. If you ever come here and take a Tuk Tuk ride, tell them to shut up with the tourist spiel they have told a Thousand times, and ask them to tell you all about their life, and their Lisbon. I'll come back with the insight I received tomorrow.

But, do not dismiss Mundo Fantastico da Sardinha. It is worth every last Centimo.
 
I'll be back in Lisbon Monday.

I am on a weekend break in Nazare. There are many suggested day trips, or overnights from Lisbon. Most go to Sintra. I'm telling you a trip to Nazare is worth much more. €12, and a 1 Hour 30 Minute bus ride.

Nazare is famous for the wave - the highest wave ever surfed in the World.

wave.jpg

Other than that, there isn't much here. There is a fenicular up the hill to view the wave and see the impressive church. There are fabulous wilderness beaches a short walk away. It has a certain charm, and a very spiritual feel. I love the place. Feel very content and at peace here, but I wouldn't expect everyone to get what I get from the place. It is all about a very chilled, Atlantic atmosphere. Everything is just very easy, gentle and always OK.

This would be my first recommendation for a day trip, or overnight stay from Lisbon. My plan is to live here for at least 6 months. I like it that much.

Back to Lisbon proper next week.
 
End of season. Sunday night hotel fucking bargains.

One last night in Nazare before I go back to Lisbon to do some more proper work. Nazare, I am growing to love more by the day.

Hotel Oceano. €30 for an exceptionally luxurious room with full buffet breakfast. Slate floors. White linen. Black tiled bathroom. Bright white towels everywhere. Flatscreen, WiFi, small balcony - the whole fucking luxury for negotiated down to just €30! May take photos later. I am in a bar right now. Oh! You get 10% discount in the hotel resto/bar also, but I've come to drink my favourite beer.

Hotel Oceano. On the sea front. Central. Views. Everything. Friendly staff (this is the norm in Portugal).

This was after I was invited for a meal again :) This is Portugal coast. Your best option is always going to be seafood. The families fish the seas, the families cook the food.

I had sea bream. My friends had fish stew, and wild salmon. Fabulous atmosphere, great service, like really great service - I dropped a very generous tip, because I paid for nothing else. Extras - a small beer, a large beer, olives, bread, king prawns, grapa, almond liquor, coffee.

€55 for all Three of us all inclusive! Delicious. Cooked to perfection and delivered in style. Brilliant.

Beautiful sunset over the ocean followed by equally beautiful crescent moon. Fabulous weather and those high drama waves and breakers. This is heaven people. Total fucking heaven.

:)
 
This is fabulous

Brick Oven Palace Hostel.

Even has a very nice garden with cute little kiddies summer house. Only downside - it is a taxi ride back from all the best spots for nights in Lisbon if you aren't up on the buses and trams. Nº 28 tram does go past the front door, but I just gave up after waiting 30 minutes and took a 30 minute walk back into the centre. I would still recommend it highly. Old merchants mansion turned convent now hostel. Quality building. Good design. Great facilities. You will appreciate the small garden, because Lisbon seriously lacks any city spaces where you can escape the noise for a chill. It can be a tiring city. The bay, and a couple of miradors seem to be the only retreats.

Too many armed police around today. Is it supposed to make you feel safe? All seems a little strange. Alternative types drinking in a praça whilst police with huge fuck off guns watch over everybody. Not sure if this is normal here.
 
What is not fabulous is the Time Out market. Gave it a try today with a couple of people I have got to know over the past week. The place is an over-glorified McDonalds cowshed. Has fuck all Lisbon style to it. Overpriced snacks from around 30 providers (sushi/gourmet burgers/Asian lab etc). 30 places serving Thousands with just One bathroom. No waiter service. It is a manic grab a table, find a seat chaotic fight. Total fucking shyte. Expect to pay €14 for a burger and a drink.

A Five minute walk away to a traditional place gets you a full meal with drink, great service and relaxed vibe for less money.
 
Out in to the outer suburbs.

I'm putting this post here, because this is U75 - not your ordinary Travel forum, and because, I wish more people would venture out of a city centre, away from the distorted amusement park that most Euro capital cities are. Over commercialised, over policied, and yet, possibly more dangerous than the reality of the suburbs. I love this shit.

To the end of the green line on the Metro... underground becomes overground. Past the impressive football stadium, right to the end of the line. I call my mate Miller. He tells me to wait at the station where his brother will meet me. Eat a €1 hotdog to pass time and check the immediate vicinity. Lisbon suburbs are just a sprawl of monotonous apartment blocks reaching way into the hills that surround the North of the city. Very unexceptional. Nothing exceptionally good, or exceptionally bad - just very functional living places.

suburbs.jpg
Photo borrowed from Google.

Miller's brother meets me.

"Come, we have to get the bus".
Me - "How much is it".
Him - "No, you don't pay. This is our bus".
Me - "Ah! Portugal Secreto".

He laughs out loud and tells me I am learning quickly. Well, I fucking well have to.

30 minute bus into a very blustery estate. Walking through the place, everybody knows each other. Maria, Clara, Rafa... A really nice community vibe here. We enter a low rise to Miller's tattoo studio and flat on the second floor. It is just another estate in just another suburb of another European city. This estate reminded me of Castle Vale in Birmingham. The same kebab shop. Same cheap hairdressers, off-licence/mini-market, bookies/gambling shop, bar/cafe... Just much more wind!

I met Miller a couple of weeks ago. He showed me his work - he is fucking well good. Very sensitive work full of originality. I will put some good photos in the Tattoo thread another day. He invited me over, so here I am. Anything I can do to offer support, promote, or simply maintain enthusiasm for a new young business. It is a very nice Two bed pad with a box room converted into a very professional workplace. He is doing well enough to pay the €400/month to a private landlord who is cool with the business, and happy for rent to be paid as and when it can.

Shitty webcam photo is supposed to display his tat's, but hey - another day.

miller.jpg

I stayed. Sketched a mural on his studio wall. Did a bit of sign-writing. Met his friends and just hung out with beers and stuff. A really cool bunch of young guys. I have a free bed if I ever get stuck. We may well work together in the future.

I had a really cool day. My best in Lisbon so far (excepting a certain U75 posters crazy company a few weeks back).

I love this stuff, because I spend almost all of my life in the artificial world of tourism. These days are my days off. Next time you visit a city, get out to where all the people like us would normally live. It is perfectly safe, and well worth the ride.

:)
 
Tuk Tuk.

tuk.png

As essentially Lisbon as the old skool trams. The Tuk Tuks. Most are electric golf trolleys elaborated for fun. Some are just boring shit boring electric golf trolleys. Some are authentic, original, imported, Two stroke originals. They are all good fun.

Officially, they offer tourist tours. €60 for a full city tour is good value if shared between 6/8 of you. Half tours are available. Small tours also. And, even though they are not supposed to; a Fiver to the station is acceptable.

I haven't seen these legally in any other European country. It is a part of 'Portugal Secreto'.

Nice job. Just pottering around the city with some slightly inebriated tourists on board. The police leave you alone most of the time, because you are a part of 'Portugal Secreto'. You don't need a PSV licence. All you need is a full Portuguese driving licence for a full year at least. Fully comprehensive insurance, plus public liability/indemnity, and a cart. A bit of local knowledge would be good also.

I say go Tuk Tuk before you go on any other tour if you are in a group. But, take control. Talk to the driver ('driver' - meh), and let them know where you want to go.

Shit fun. Ask them all about 'Portugal Secreto?. ;)

--/ edit...

I will come back to this post another day, because it deserves to be much more interesting. I should mention now, just 500 annual licenses are issued each year, but there are around 5,000 Tuk Tuk operators. This obviously causes problems with charging spots as much as it causes problems with 'illegal' parking. Late at night, you will rarely see an electric cart running - they are all dead. Only the Two strokes still phut phut around town.
 
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I'll probably leave this thread alone for a while until something very interesting comes along and seems worthwhile sharing. In the meantime, a few not so good things about Lisbon...

Toilets. Get your fucking act together Lisbon. I have lost count of the number of bars and eateries where the loo is just an afterthought, and often 'out of service'.

If you are eating traditional, avoid anything with the word 'porco' in the menu. More often it is pork belly fat rather than meat. I just treated myself to a sort of chickpea and carrot stew with huge ribbons of pork fat, bones with no meat, and a token gesture of chorizo. I honestly thought they were taking the piss.

Other than that, I would say now is the perfect time of year to visit. It is still busy, busy, but noticeably quieter than last week. Should mean cheaper flights and beds.

The weather is exceptionally/unusually/worryingly hot by day, and very mild at night. Huge swathes of the country remain on red alert for forest fire risk. Local people are getting nervous. The forecast is for normality later this week. Hopefully lots of rain everywhere.

I urgently need to find a living/work space in Nazare, so I am taking a gamble with little money in Nazare. Giving Lisbon a break for a while. May even head back to Porto for a few weeks and start, or search for a Porto thread. I think I still prefer Porto over Lisbon. Much less commercial, and far more 'cafe society'. My sort of clients.
 
Porco alentejano com almeias is fucking great. Great cubes of proper pork. Your wild generalisations are hilarious Stan! Here are mine, however!

Things that are not so great about Lisbon, mostly an incredible city I've been to tons of times.

The regular oopsy mybad short-changing that regularly to happen.
Shitty Time Out market.
The poverty misery and general depression the crisis has left. You regularly see people crying in public, stuff like that.
The tuktuks are fucking awful and are ruining the city so a few 'business minded' cunts can get rich.
Similarly, many people are beyond differential in speaking your language, but then kinda resent you for it. But young people especially think youre insane for wanting to speak Portuguese.
People have a lot of resentment towards the increase in tourists... but then being Portuguese are still unbelievably friendly (good thing obvs. Great people!)
The negative attitude towards Spain and Spanish :thumbs:
The shitty wine glasses and metal trays in the tascas. Cheap but Jesus Christ does Portugal lack sex appeal sometimes. Presentation is balls!
Beer in plastic cups. Just no. Never.
The hordes of fuckers trying to get back from Belem in the evening. God.
8 minute wait for metro trains during the middle of the fucking day in the city frickin centre!
The awful grim budget termimal at the airport. At least beer is cheap!
The annoying hipster art and manufactured "quirkiness " of bairo alto etc. Fuckin artists! ;)
Coffee is such serious business I still can't fully get my head round it. Galão is only for grannies basically. Coffee is great in Portugal actually but forget about getting milk.
The racism under the surface and occasionally quite obvious towards those from Angola Mozambique Cape Verde etc.
That bloomin evil wind in winter.
The number of annoying smug international start up cunts about who refrr to themselves as digital nomads and all that bollocks.
Restaurants looking you up and down and inventing imaginary reasons why you can't eat there.
The terrible aggressive driving from fuckers in big powerful German cars, of which there are many.


Aside from all that it's incredible. But just be cautious of Stan's romantic tales of Tuk Tuks etc. People hate them and are very resentful at the whole situation and the ongoing process of gentrification. Half of Lisbon earns like 500-600e a month and is being priced out.
 
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Riklet said:
Porco alentejano com almeias is fucking great. Great cubes of proper pork. Your wild generalisations are hilarious Stan! Here are mine, however!

Things that are not so great about Lisbon, mostly an incredible city I've been to tons of times.

The regular oopsy mybad short-changing that regularly to happen.
Shitty Time Out market.
The poverty misery and general depression the crisis has left. You regularly see people crying in public, stuff like that.
The tuktuks are fucking awful and are ruining the city so a few 'business minded' cunts can get rich.
Similarly, many people are beyond differential in speaking your language, but then kinda resent you for it. But young people especially think youre insane for wanting to speak Portuguese.
People have a lot of resentment towards the increase in tourists... but then being Portuguese are still unbelievably friendly (good thing obvs. Great people!)
The negative attitude towards Spain and Spanish :thumbs:
The shitty wine glasses and metal trays in the tascas. Cheap but Jesus Christ does Portugal lack sex appeal sometimes. Presentation is balls!
Beer in plastic cups. Just no. Never.
The hordes of fuckers trying to get back from Belem in the evening. God.
8 minute wait for metro trains during the middle of the fucking day in the city frickin centre!
The awful grim budget termimal at the airport. At least beer is cheap!
The annoying hipster art and manufactured "quirkiness " of bairo alto etc. Fuckin artists! ;)
Coffee is such serious business I still can't fully get my head round it. Galão is only for grannies basically. Coffee is great in Portugal actually but forget about getting milk.
The racism under the surface and occasionally quite obvious towards those from Angola Mozambique Cape Verde etc.
That bloomin evil wind in winter.
The number of annoying smug international start up cunts about who refrr to themselves as digital nomads and all that bollocks.
Restaurants looking you up and down and inventing imaginary reasons why you can't eat there.
The terrible aggressive driving from fuckers in big powerful German cars, of which there are many.


Aside from all that it's incredible. But just be cautious of Stan's romantic tales of Tuk Tuks etc. People hate them and are very resentful at the whole situation and the ongoing process of gentrification. Half of Lisbon earns like 500-600e a month and is being priced out.
Click to expand...

I like a galao with a croissant in the morning or late afternoon with a cake.
 
Riklet said:
Porco alentejano com almeias is fucking great. Great cubes of proper pork. Your wild generalisations are hilarious Stan! Here are mine, however!
...

Aside from all that it's incredible. But just be cautious of Stan's romantic tales of Tuk Tuks etc. People hate them and are very resentful at the whole situation and the ongoing process of gentrification. Half of Lisbon earns like 500-600e a month and is being priced out.
Click to expand...

I don't think I am romanticising Lisbon at all. The Tuk Tuks are here for locals and tourists to endure, or enjoy. Of everything to get frustrated about here, they are low on the list. They provide employment to local young people. Many tourists love them. They are mostly electric and not polluting the city.

Most of my work (and, money) here is coming from local people and businesses. They all moan about the tourism boom, but all appreciate it is financially good for most. With the tourism comes the gentrification which is not going to be good for many. Young people here are moaning about the lack of affordable accommodation in the centre - the same story in every capital city of Europe today. "Everything is a hotel, or a hostal, or an airBnb apartment", they despair. I feel for them. My post above about the suburbs sort of illustrates that.

Many of your other moans I have mentioned myself in the 'other thread', and are relative to Portugal as a whole rather than just Lisbon, especially the short changing. My face is familiar enough in regular places here now, so I don't have to worry about it.

On the low earnings front: it is pretty dire. Even if you find affordable living in the suburbs, it is not easy. However, people manage as happily as people manage in Spain. It is not nearly as much of a problem here as it is in places like Ibiza. The underground economy, or 'Portugal secreto' is huge here. Many see it as a very important part of the economic revival - this is why it is tolerated so much. If you are not taking the piss, committing a criminal offence, or causing a nuisance, most will turn a blind eye. It is the only way many can survive, and authorities see it as a better thing than relying on the state. If it is bringing money into the local economy - it can only be a good thing.

My biggest moan about Lisbon is THE FUCKING WANKING FUCKING CUNT STREET DEALERS. I have to leave before I finally lose the plot and try to take on half a dozen young guys physically much stronger than I am. Most of them are not just annoying con artists, they are total fucking selfish cunts. I want to kill them.

Back to the plus sides...

Have to mention A Panaderia Portuguesa. A chain of great cafes. Think along the lines of the old National Milk Bars in the UK. No problem coming into these places to use the bathrooms, or escape the rain, charge your laptop/phone (sockets everywhere in all of them). Good prices if you want to eat/drink. Great staff and service (given the price). I am currently escaping the rain with a green tea for just €1.

Lisbon has pretty much given me all I needed. I much prefer Porto for a visit. Lisbon is the place to make contacts though. I am not here as a tourist - I am living and working here. In just a couple of months I have all the friends, business contacts and other connections I was looking for. In that respect it has been the easiest capital in Europe I have worked. Opportunities are here. Making cash on the street is an altogether different matter - it is tough.

Back to the low earnings thing...

I see the Communist party are selling themselves on a campaign to raise the minimum salary to €600/month! It is that bad. On the other hand, in many ways these things can be relative. Where most pay €2.50 for a beer, I pay €1.50. When you are accepted into 'Portugal Secreto' you really don't need as much money to survive comfortably. The problem is people like us coming here to holiday with half full pockets and fancying out chances of enjoying the 'better life'. Something I am always very aware of wherever I visit with an intention to live. I don't just do the tourist bit, I make a point of getting out into the real lives of real people. It is appreciated.

The only romance here is my soppy artist ways. Two days of rain have spoiled my work. Friday night, so once again I roll with the dealers, the thieves, the tourists off their faces and try to hang-on to as much cash as I can to buy materials for work I have to finish over the weekend.

Every city can be shit if you want to see it that way. I think we all know that, so I'm looking more at what Lisbon can offer on the plus side.
 
Stanley Edwards said:
I don't think I am romanticising Lisbon at all. The Tuk Tuks are here for locals and tourists to endure, or enjoy. Of everything to get frustrated about here, they are low on the list. They provide employment to local young people. Many tourists love them. They are mostly electric and not polluting the city.

Most of my work (and, money) here is coming from local people and businesses. They all moan about the tourism boom, but all appreciate it is financially good for most. With the tourism comes the gentrification which is not going to be good for many. Young people here are moaning about the lack of affordable accommodation in the centre - the same story in every capital city of Europe today. "Everything is a hotel, or a hostal, or an airBnb apartment", they despair. I feel for them. My post above about the suburbs sort of illustrates that.

Many of your other moans I have mentioned myself in the 'other thread', and are relative to Portugal as a whole rather than just Lisbon, especially the short changing. My face is familiar enough in regular places here now, so I don't have to worry about it.

On the low earnings front: it is pretty dire. Even if you find affordable living in the suburbs, it is not easy. However, people manage as happily as people manage in Spain. It is not nearly as much of a problem here as it is in places like Ibiza. The underground economy, or 'Portugal secreto' is huge here. Many see it as a very important part of the economic revival - this is why it is tolerated so much. If you are not taking the piss, committing a criminal offence, or causing a nuisance, most will turn a blind eye. It is the only way many can survive, and authorities see it as a better thing than relying on the state. If it is bringing money into the local economy - it can only be a good thing.

My biggest moan about Lisbon is THE FUCKING WANKING FUCKING CUNT STREET DEALERS. I have to leave before I finally lose the plot and try to take on half a dozen young guys physically much stronger than I am. Most of them are not just annoying con artists, they are total fucking selfish cunts. I want to kill them.

Back to the plus sides...

Have to mention A Panaderia Portuguesa. A chain of great cafes. Think along the lines of the old National Milk Bars in the UK. No problem coming into these places to use the bathrooms, or escape the rain, charge your laptop/phone (sockets everywhere in all of them). Good prices if you want to eat/drink. Great staff and service (given the price). I am currently escaping the rain with a green tea for just €1.

Lisbon has pretty much given me all I needed. I much prefer Porto for a visit. Lisbon is the place to make contacts though. I am not here as a tourist - I am living and working here. In just a couple of months I have all the friends, business contacts and other connections I was looking for. In that respect it has been the easiest capital in Europe I have worked. Opportunities are here. Making cash on the street is an altogether different matter - it is tough.

Back to the low earnings thing...

I see the Communist party are selling themselves on a campaign to raise the minimum salary to €600/month! It is that bad. On the other hand, in many ways these things can be relative. Where most pay €2.50 for a beer, I pay €1.50. When you are accepted into 'Portugal Secreto' you really don't need as much money to survive comfortably. The problem is people like us coming here to holiday with half full pockets and fancying out chances of enjoying the 'better life'. Something I am always very aware of wherever I visit with an intention to live. I don't just do the tourist bit, I make a point of getting out into the real lives of real people. It is appreciated.

The only romance here is my soppy artist ways. Two days of rain have spoiled my work. Friday night, so once again I roll with the dealers, the thieves, the tourists off their faces and try to hang-on to as much cash as I can to buy materials for work I have to finish over the weekend.

Every city can be shit if you want to see it that way. I think we all know that, so I'm looking more at what Lisbon can offer on the plus side.
Click to expand...

I personally think that is a great post Stan - and I have enjoyed reading much of what you say. Delighted that you mention the old (and much missed) - National Milk Bars - a special Mid-Wales peculiarity. Extinct now I think.

Regarding "street dealers" - I presume best to ask around in a local bar ! .......even my 16 year old got hassled big time when we were there some years ago. He of course told them to fuck off...
 
Oh, and another point: the last genuine art bar in Sau Paulo has closed (as from this week). It is happening very quickly. The soul is going.
 
davesgcr said:
...I presume best to ask around in a local bar ! ...
Click to expand...

Very quietly - yes.

Same as any other city really. The farther up the hill you go, farther away from the tourist trap, the easier it gets, the cleaner it gets, the better value it gets. Convenience will always temp when on holiday, but you have to be very lucky to get anything like a half reasonable deal on the streets here.
 
Stanley Edwards said:
Very quietly - yes.

Same as any other city really. The farther up the hill you go, farther away from the tourist trap, the easier it gets, the cleaner it gets, the better value it gets. Convenience will always temp when on holiday, but you have to be very lucky to get anything like a half reasonable deal on the streets here.
Click to expand...

Purely academic of course ....may go with the Mrs sometime in the next year or so. I did enjoy Lisbon last time - we found some stray cats with kittens on the trudge back to the hotel (bit off centre) - so we fed them the next night with a can of tuna - delighted to talk to some locals , who thanked us , but said they were looking out for them anyway.....
 
Stanley Edwards said:
I don't think I am romanticising Lisbon at all. The Tuk Tuks are here for locals and tourists to endure, or enjoy. Of everything to get frustrated about here, they are low on the list. They provide employment to local young people. Many tourists love them. They are mostly electric and not polluting the city.

Most of my work (and, money) here is coming from local people and businesses. They all moan about the tourism boom, but all appreciate it is financially good for most. With the tourism comes the gentrification which is not going to be good for many. Young people here are moaning about the lack of affordable accommodation in the centre - the same story in every capital city of Europe today. "Everything is a hotel, or a hostal, or an airBnb apartment", they despair. I feel for them. My post above about the suburbs sort of illustrates that.

Many of your other moans I have mentioned myself in the 'other thread', and are relative to Portugal as a whole rather than just Lisbon, especially the short changing. My face is familiar enough in regular places here now, so I don't have to worry about it.

On the low earnings front: it is pretty dire. Even if you find affordable living in the suburbs, it is not easy. However, people manage as happily as people manage in Spain. It is not nearly as much of a problem here as it is in places like Ibiza. The underground economy, or 'Portugal secreto' is huge here. Many see it as a very important part of the economic revival - this is why it is tolerated so much. If you are not taking the piss, committing a criminal offence, or causing a nuisance, most will turn a blind eye. It is the only way many can survive, and authorities see it as a better thing than relying on the state. If it is bringing money into the local economy - it can only be a good thing.

My biggest moan about Lisbon is THE FUCKING WANKING FUCKING CUNT STREET DEALERS. I have to leave before I finally lose the plot and try to take on half a dozen young guys physically much stronger than I am. Most of them are not just annoying con artists, they are total fucking selfish cunts. I want to kill them.

Back to the plus sides...

Have to mention A Panaderia Portuguesa. A chain of great cafes. Think along the lines of the old National Milk Bars in the UK. No problem coming into these places to use the bathrooms, or escape the rain, charge your laptop/phone (sockets everywhere in all of them). Good prices if you want to eat/drink. Great staff and service (given the price). I am currently escaping the rain with a green tea for just €1.

Lisbon has pretty much given me all I needed. I much prefer Porto for a visit. Lisbon is the place to make contacts though. I am not here as a tourist - I am living and working here. In just a couple of months I have all the friends, business contacts and other connections I was looking for. In that respect it has been the easiest capital in Europe I have worked. Opportunities are here. Making cash on the street is an altogether different matter - it is tough.

Back to the low earnings thing...

I see the Communist party are selling themselves on a campaign to raise the minimum salary to €600/month! It is that bad. On the other hand, in many ways these things can be relative. Where most pay €2.50 for a beer, I pay €1.50. When you are accepted into 'Portugal Secreto' you really don't need as much money to survive comfortably. The problem is people like us coming here to holiday with half full pockets and fancying out chances of enjoying the 'better life'. Something I am always very aware of wherever I visit with an intention to live. I don't just do the tourist bit, I make a point of getting out into the real lives of real people. It is appreciated.

The only romance here is my soppy artist ways. Two days of rain have spoiled my work. Friday night, so once again I roll with the dealers, the thieves, the tourists off their faces and try to hang-on to as much cash as I can to buy materials for work I have to finish over the weekend.

Every city can be shit if you want to see it that way. I think we all know that, so I'm looking more at what Lisbon can offer on the plus side.
Click to expand...
Not sure that you are going to be getting out into the lives of real people if you are rolling with dealers, thieves and tourists off their faces tbh.
 
The39thStep said:
Not sure that you are going to be getting out into the lives of real people if you are rolling with dealers, thieves and tourists off their faces tbh.
Click to expand...

Arsehole.

Read my posts before trying to come across as a cocky cunt. I'll bet my last Cent you haven't even attempted to learn Portuguese.

Fuck off now.
 
Stanley Edwards said:
Very quietly - yes.

Same as any other city really. The farther up the hill you go, farther away from the tourist trap, the easier it gets, the cleaner it gets, the better value it gets. Convenience will always temp when on holiday, but you have to be very lucky to get anything like a half reasonable deal on the streets here.
Click to expand...
well duh. first rule of buying drugs: don't buy on the street.
 
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