Just been sacked - looking for advice please....

[jimmy78]

Hello good people of urban, have often browsed the boards but following the phone call I've just had, I now need some advice, please.

I have just had a phone call from my general manager, who abruptly told me that I'd been sacked, that I'd be paid until the end of the month, I was being sacked for "swearing in the shop", and "sorry about that", and before I could reply, he hung up.

I have worked for 7 years at a small independent shop in central London, and rarely had any disciplinary issues. Towards the end of last week, there was a row in the shop between myself and another member of staff, who subsequently flounced off (2 hrs before the end of the working day), despite myself asking at least 3 times if we could clear the air before he left. This was all witnessed by the general manager who has just sacked me.

Needless to say - I'm not best pleased.

I'm looking for advice on where I stand legally, and what i should be doing in the short term - obviously in London my financial situation will quickly become perilous, so I'm going to try and get to the Jobcentre today, and going to try and book an appointment at the local Citizens Advice Bureau ASAP. It has been a good few years since I set foot in a Jobcentre, and I'm not even sure that i should be telling them I've been sacked, otherwise it could potentially affect my benefits?

I'm obviously also keen to look into my legal options as if I'm only being paid until the end of the month, I'm essentially receiving just one week's pay, as i was paid just a few days ago.

I'd greatly appreciate some advice on any/all of the above - sincere thanks in advance.

 

[Pickman's model]

cesare another one for you

 

[Puddy_Tat]

This (from CAB) may be a reasonable place to start. (I'm assuming here that you're not a trade union member - if you are, they should be able to assist.)

Subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer, worked in housing benefits some years ago, and was a trade union rep a while back...

Gut feeling is that employer has not handled this anything like correctly. Obviously I don't know any of the facts / allegations of what happened, but I don't think that sacking someone by phone without any form of disciplinary hearing or allowing you a chance to put your side of things is on.

There are some circumstances where an employer may feel it necessary to suspend someone from work instantly, but they should still do the disciplinary thing properly.

This is ACAS page on the subject. ACAS also have a telephone advice line that any employer or employee can call - this may be worth a call.

it sounds like you might well have a clear run to an employment tribunal because they haven't followed procedure. (Do you know if employer has a disciplinary procedure?)

Although i think you now have to pay an up front fee to bring a tribunal case - and you also have to show you have tried to resolve the matter through a grievance and in some cases mediation - first. ACAS will have more on this.

Not sure about the pay in lieu of notice thing. You're legally entitled to be paid for all hours you have worked, and any holiday pay accrued during the bit of the year you've been employed (on the other hand, if you've taken more of this year's holiday than you're entitled to up to now, then I think they can recover that bit of holiday pay.)

However, I think that if an employer dismisses for 'gross misconduct' then right to notice may not apply.

In terms of signing on and so on - Job Centres can contact ex employers and ask why someone left. At one time, they did this as a matter of course with every new claim. I'm not sufficiently up to date to know whether they still do or whether they do X per cent of claims or what. Telling them lies may not be constructive in the long run.

If you do get disqualified from JSA, then (depending on circumstances such as a partner's income and any savings you have) you may be entitled to a 'hardship payment' which is like JSA only less. At one time, you used to get told this existed if you were disqualified from the dole but I believe they don't mention it now.

Also, if you're liable to pay rent / council tax, then housing benefit / council tax reduction does not have the same 'voluntarily unemployed' sanction, so you can still claim (HB is handled by local councils - the DWP can forward a request to claim, but council will want proof of tenancy and so on.) Even if you have zero income temporarily, you can still claim HB but they will probably ask you to explain how you're meeting living costs.

Any claim for JSA / HB etc will start from when your employment legally ends (as in start of next month)

 

[jimmy78]

Hi, and thanks.

No I'm not a union member - we only have approx 10 employees and despite a couple of us discussing trying for representation it never transpired.

I'm not sure of the disciplinary procedure of my ex-employer, I'm going to try and dig out my contract today and see what's in there.

Thanks for the links and advice, I'll be thoroughly reading up on these over the course of the day.

 

[equationgirl]

Hi, and thanks.

No I'm not a union member - we only have approx 10 employees and despite a couple of us discussing trying for representation it never transpired.

I'm not sure of the disciplinary procedure of my ex-employer, I'm going to try and dig out my contract today and see what's in there.

Thanks for the links and advice, I'll be thoroughly reading up on these over the course of the day.

disciplinary procedures are often separate documents to employment contracts. Is there an employee handbook you might have been given? Best of luck.

 

[jimmy78]

disciplinary procedures are often separate documents to employment contracts. Is there an employee handbook you might have been given? Best of luck.

Thanks - no separate handbook but just dug out my contract, the only bit on discipline is this:



I've certainly never received a written warning, so it looks like they've slipped up there. Unless of course they're claiming Gross Misconduct... but of course my sacking was so blunt that I don't know...

 

[jimmy78]

I have also realised that by my contract i should get at least 6 weeks notice pay, one for every full year of service.

So I'm guessing ACAS is the way to go? As i don't think I trust my employer enough, nor after today respect them enough, to go to them with these details - I think I'm better off letting an independent body handle it. Would be useful to know whether or not they are claiming gross misconduct though, I guess...

 

[Winot]

I have also realised that by my contract i should get at least 6 weeks notice pay, one for every full year of service.

So I'm guessing ACAS is the way to go? As i don't think I trust my employer enough, nor after today respect them enough, to go to them with these details - I think I'm better off letting an independent body handle it. Would be useful to know whether or not they are claiming gross misconduct though, I guess...

I would write a polite letter to your employer referring to the telephone call and documenting exactly what was said. I would then politely ask them to confirm in writing the action they intend to take and their reasons for it, in order that you can take advice as to your next steps. Ask them to respond by close of business on Friday. Then take advice.

 

[High Voltage]

To be honest, in any communication either verbal OR written you have with them I would NOT mentioned gross misconduct as this may act as a little memory jog to the employer as it looks like at the moment the GM has flown off the handle and thinks that he's back in the Victorian days where he can just sack people on a whim

If the above 3 points are your entire disciplinary procedure then, in my opinion (usual not lawyer etc) they're pretty vague as there's no mention of a time limit and when or if a disciplinary offence gets spent - i.e. a verbal may only last for 6-12 months after that then you're back to square one - worth checking that as well

Did other member of staff also swear? were there members of the general public present at the time? when you say swear are we talking Fs and Cs or the next tier down of swearing

 

[Duncan2]

disciplinary procedures are often separate documents to employment contracts. Is there an employee handbook you might have been given? Best of luck.

I think Puddy Tat touched on the issue of grievance procedures I wonder if there is am Appeals Procedure at your former place?It may very well be fruitless but if the option to Appeal was there an ETA might expect you to have given it a gn a personal note I do sympathise.I worked at a place for thirteen years before getting sacked 'gross-misconduct' etc for using the word 'bull-shit'.This was in a place where entire conversations were conducted in Anglo-Saxon.Don't want to discourage you from making a fuss but you will find absent a wealthy trade union fighting your corner that tribunal fees are steep.The initial fee is manageable but if you get no win no fee lawyers they are likely to ask you for a hefty deposit and in my experience unless the employer settles they will be no help to you.Mine missed a deadline for putting in my trial-bundle which was vexing because I had had to do it all myself including Schedule of Loss.As it happened it made no difference cos the Court wanted seven hundred pounds for a Final Hearing fee I had already maxed out my overdraft.Hope you have a better experience than I did many employers will settle mine had been desperate to get rid of me because they thought I was an 'activist'. Just seen your post it would appear that there isn't scope for an internal Appeal at your place.

 

[equationgirl]

I have also realised that by my contract i should get at least 6 weeks notice pay, one for every full year of service.

So I'm guessing ACAS is the way to go? As i don't think I trust my employer enough, nor after today respect them enough, to go to them with these details - I think I'm better off letting an independent body handle it. Would be useful to know whether or not they are claiming gross misconduct though, I guess...

There's a number for the ACAS advice line, it's 0300 123 1100 and it's free of charge.

 

[xes]

I have also realised that by my contract i should get at least 6 weeks notice pay, one for every full year of service.

So I'm guessing ACAS is the way to go? As i don't think I trust my employer enough, nor after today respect them enough, to go to them with these details - I think I'm better off letting an independent body handle it. Would be useful to know whether or not they are claiming gross misconduct though, I guess...

I think they might be able to get round paying you the 6 weeks if you've been saked for gross misconduct. Or, as it's now called... Instant dissmissal without payment in lieu.

 

[StoneRoad]

Call ACAS - the initial call(s) can be anonymous if you want - 0300 123 1100 ...

Do you have a CAB / legal advice co-op near enough to you ?

Also, write a log sheet out giving the facts, times etc (and any verbatim remarks you can recall) for both the in-work incident and the 'phone call.

 

[equationgirl]

Yes, a timeline of events can be helpful.

 

[cesare]

Sorry to hear that you've been unfairly dismissd. The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be dismissed for a first offence unless it's gross misconduct, and you also seem to have sufficient service to have employment rights not to be unfairly dismissed. If I were in your position I'd write a letter to the employer appealing against the decision and setting out why you think you shouldn't have been dismissed. Use this Code of Practice as a reference to structure your letter: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/f/...-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures.pdf The Code is a statutory instrument which is agreed by government and the Employment Tribunals are obliged to use it as a reference for how fair disciplinaries and dismissals are conducted.

Then the ball is in their (te employer) court to deal with your appeal.

If that's not successful you will need to start Early Conciliation with ACAS. What this means is that you lodge your complaint of unfair dismissal using this process: Early Conciliation - Workplace Dispute Service | Acas
It's mandatory to do this before starting an Employment Tribunal claim. ACAS then conciliate between you and the employer for a period of one month. It's free. Neither you or the employer have to resolve the dispute at this stage but if you can it's the cheapest and easiest way of doing it. It also means that you get an extra month added to the 3 month deadline to lodge your claim.

After one month, if the dispute isn't resolved, ACAS give you a certificate with a number that has to be quoted if you make an Employment Tribunal claim. The fees for the Tribunal are split into two parts (1) the fee for lodging the claim, which you have to pay immediately; and (2) the fee for the hearing which you have to pay a month (I think) before the actual date of the hearing if it hasn't been settled by then. The fees are reclaimable from the employer if you win. There are also arrangments to waive the fees depending on financial circumstances.

 

[StoneRoad]

jimmy78 - and what happened to the guy who flounced off early, do you know ? did they take that as him resigning ?
In terms of background, do you know someone else who works in the shop - to ask if some (real) punter had actually complained, if they did, you should ask for a copy of the letter / information.
(I was once given a ticking off - the shop manager used the same "letter" to browbeat at least three other members of staff - and refused to let me read it ... needless to say, I didn't believe a word of what he was ranting about. (All of us had contacts with USDAW, in varying degrees).

 

[jimmy78]

Sorry to hear that you've been unfairly dismissd. The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't be dismissed for a first offence unless it's gross misconduct, and you also seem to have sufficient service to have employment rights not to be unfairly dismissed. If I were in your position I'd write a letter to the employer appealing against the decision and setting out why you think you shouldn't have been dismissed. Use this Code of Practice as a reference to structure your letter: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/f/...-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures.pdf The Code is a statutory instrument which is agreed by government and the Employment Tribunals are obliged to use it as a reference for how fair disciplinaries and dismissals are conducted.

Then the ball is in their (te employer) court to deal with your appeal.

If that's not successful you will need to start Early Conciliation with ACAS. What this means is that you lodge your complaint of unfair dismissal using this process: Early Conciliation - Workplace Dispute Service | Acas
It's mandatory to do this before starting an Employment Tribunal claim. ACAS then conciliate between you and the employer for a period of one month. It's free. Neither you or the employer have to resolve the dispute at this stage but if you can it's the cheapest and easiest way of doing it. It also means that you get an extra month added to the 3 month deadline to lodge your claim.

After one month, if the dispute isn't resolved, ACAS give you a certificate with a number that has to be quoted if you make an Employment Tribunal claim. The fees for the Tribunal are split into two parts (1) the fee for lodging the claim, which you have to pay immediately; and (2) the fee for the hearing which you have to pay a month (I think) before the actual date of the hearing if it hasn't been settled by then. The fees are reclaimable from the employer if you win. There are also arrangments to waive the fees depending on financial circumstances.

Hello, and thanks for the detailed reply.

Regarding writing to my employer to appeal the decision, what's the best outcome I can hope for from this course of action? Reinstatement? Knowing the management (and owner, who makes the GM look like Mother Theresa), I think that's unlikely... and right now I'm not sure I could ever do another day's work for them, I don't think my dignity would ever recover! However maybe I will calm down on this stance, right now I'm still seething...

I'm worried about getting in touch with them directly as I don't want to put the term 'gross misconduct' in their minds - it hasn't been mentioned thus far. At the moment if they haven't claimed GM, they haven't followed their own disciplinary procedure correctly - so therefore they definitely owe me a full 6 weeks pay, as per my contract. That would buy me a decent amount of time to look for a new job. At the moment they have just vaguely said by email "you'll be paid up to the end of February, including the 2 weeks holiday you're owed". This is vague - I'm normally paid around the 21st of each month, so do they mean 21st Feb, or 28th Feb, the actual end of the month? Who knows, but they'll try and screw me, guaranteed. So it appears my best chance of getting the best settlement is to go to tribunal. However, if I do go down the ACAS route, and then they claim GM, then I could really be in the shit and get nothing, right? Sheeeeshhh what a minefield!

jimmy78 - and what happened to the guy who flounced off early, do you know ? did they take that as him resigning ?
In terms of background, do you know someone else who works in the shop - to ask if some (real) punter had actually complained, if they did, you should ask for a copy of the letter / information.
(I was once given a ticking off - the shop manager used the same "letter" to browbeat at least three other members of staff - and refused to let me read it ... needless to say, I didn't believe a word of what he was ranting about. (All of us had contacts with USDAW, in varying degrees).

No, nothing happened to him. He's a spoilt brat who's used to getting his own way, a real butter-wouldn't-melt type. Proper ass-kisser.

As far as I can ascertain, no customer complained; the whole thing seems to me that they are using the swearing as a cover story and are actually sacking me because of the row I had with the other staff member, but this of course is just my opinion, and they would no doubt argue otherwise.

 

[jimmy78]

One more thing I've just gleaned from reading through the ACAS 'conciliation explained' PDF, is that I have 3 months in which I can bring a case of unfair dismissal - so is it worth waiting until after I've received my last payment from my employer before bringing a case, or is it just best to tackle it now?

Apologies for so many questions, especially as a new member: this not the first time I've been sacked but it's certainly the first time I probably didn't 100% deserve it!

 

[DrRingDing]

Cold calculated shafting is what is required.

Write stuff down.

Get yer benefits sorted (I would avoid telling the jobcentre you've been sacked). So, you can get yer rent covered and some food money.

Then really get to work on the bastard

 

[jimmy78]

Cold calculated shafting is what is required.

Write stuff down.

Get yer benefits sorted (I would avoid telling the jobcentre you've been sacked). So, you can get yer rent covered and some food money.

Then really get to work on the bastard

heh, like the sentiment! Sounds good to me, as these people won't think twice about doing it to me..

RE the jobcentre - seems to be a bit of confusion over whether to tell them I've been sacked or not... because they may check with employer. Anymore thoughts on this from anyone with similar experience?

 

[cesare]

One more thing I've just gleaned from reading through the ACAS 'conciliation explained' PDF, is that I have 3 months in which I can bring a case of unfair dismissal - so is it worth waiting until after I've received my last payment from my employer before bringing a case, or is it just best to tackle it now?

Apologies for so many questions, especially as a new member: this not the first time I've been sacked but it's certainly the first time I probably didn't 100% deserve it!

Yes, 3 months to bring a claim in the ET but it's mandatory to do the one month ACAS early conciliation first, so in effect it's four months. You can wait to collect your final pay before starting early conciliation - but keep an eye on the deadline i.e. don't wait too long to start early conciliation because you'll need that extra month at the end to get your claim together if early conciliation doesnt work.

If you decide to appeal you don't need to mention gross misconduct - just say that you shouldn't be dismissed for a first offence and in any event there was no offence because [detail].

Yes, a successful appeal should mean reinstatement but you could settle for a decent reference plus monies owed plus a sum in compensation* if you know that you'll be able to find another job easily.

* They might make any compensation subject to a settlement agreement but from the sounds of it they'll resist that.

 

[jimmy78]

Thanks again for the advice, it's been really useful.

Today I received a letter, confirming my dismissal, but this time it set out their reasons, and crucially, stated they believed that my actions amounted to gross misconduct.

However, they've stated that they'll pay me a month's salary at their discretion, as well as the holiday pay which I'm owed, so I'm going to wait and see if they honour that, before deciding what further action to take.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Any news on this? Did you appeal? Did you speak to ACAS? Find a law centre?

Even if they are claiming gross misconduct, they still have to follow a fair process and you can still take them to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal. Keep an eye on deadlines - it takes quite a bit of bureaucracy to launch an employment tribunal claim, so don't leave it too long and miss the chance.

 

[jimmy78]

Any news on this? Did you appeal? Did you speak to ACAS? Find a law centre?

Even if they are claiming gross misconduct, they still have to follow a fair process and you can still take them to an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal. Keep an eye on deadlines - it takes quite a bit of bureaucracy to launch an employment tribunal claim, so don't leave it too long and miss the chance.

Hello, and sorry for the tardy reply!

I completed the early conciliation form yesterday. My ex-employer actually paid me the money they said they would, and in the meantime I cooled slightly on going through the ACAS procedure, but my resolve steeled again of late, so the ball is rolling... I'll update here in due course.

Thanks again for all the first-rate advice in this thread.

 

[Crispy]

Thanks again for all the first-rate advice in this thread.

This is something urban does really well Good luck!

 

[Epona]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Although it may not be useful to you right now, in future please bear in mind that you can join a union and get access to legal advice and other forms of help even if you do not have union representation or a majority of union members in a workplace.

 

[zippyRN]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Although it may not be useful to you right now, in future please bear in mind that you can join a union and get access to legal advice and other forms of help even if you do not have union representation or a majority of union members in a workplace.

all 'recognition' means is that recognised unions will be consulted on proposed changes etc and can neogitate in pay rounds etc ( rather than management just deciding what if any pay rises they give)

even if a union is not 'recognised' there is little or nothing an employer can do to stop them representing individuals ...

 

[Guineveretoo]

all 'recognition' means is that recognised unions will be consulted on proposed changes etc and can neogitate in pay rounds etc ( rather than management just deciding what if any pay rises they give)

even if a union is not 'recognised' there is little or nothing an employer can do to stop them representing individuals ...

It's even more than that.

With a very few exceptions, every worker in the UK is entitled to be represented and advised by a trade union, whether or not they are officially recognised. In particular, the law around disciplinary and grievance hearings specifies that the person can be represented by a trade union rep.

However, they have to be a member!

 

[19sixtysix]

Exactly. I worked abroad for a UK company I kept my union membership despite it being a non-unionised place. It was quite handy as I referred to the legal benefits when they were taking the piss. My foreign colleagues were unionised and knew the rules. Thinking back I should have joined their union as well which would have put the cat amongst the pigeons. Union membership works.