JSA for part-time students (and HB?)

[Kuso]

So first off, I'm in Northern Ireland, which might mean some things are a wee bit different benefits wise.

Basically my 3 years of funded phd time is up at the end of the month. Any idea what (if anything) I'm entitled to claim? I'll be registering as a part-time student, and will actually be looking for a job as I no longer have any source of income .

I've found this on the nidirect website:

Part-time students
If you’re studying part-time, you may be able to claim Jobseeker's Allowance if you are:

• out of work or working less than 16 hours a week on average
• capable of working
• available for work
• actively seeking work
• below retirement age

which to me means I'm entitled. Anyone any experience with this? And if I'm entitled to JSA surely that means entitlement to HB too?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

From my knowledge of these things, which is some years out of date and based on the law as it stands in England then, yes - if you're "available for and actively seeking work" then yes you can claim JSA.

This does mean that you'll be expected to jump through whatever hoops the job centre dangle, including spending lots of time applying for jobs that you know damn well you don't stand a chance of getting, and the risk of being sent on some crappy workfare scheme full time.

Are they going to be able to argue that your course stands in the way of your job-hunting (e.g. you'd not be able to put enough job hunting time in, or wouldn't be able to go for interviews, or in the way of getting a job?

If the course is (say) a couple of days a week, I can see that being a potential issue. If it's an evening a week, I can't see that being much of a problem.

This seems to be relevant page as regards N Ireland

Gut feeling is if in doubt, claim.

As regards housing benefit - this page says you can't claim HB if you're a full time student (again, broadly the same as in England.)

While claiming JSA means you can put a claim for HB in at the same time, Housing Benefit is not restricted only to people who are getting JSA (or other social security benefits) and it's not an all or nothing thing. You can claim (and get something, even if not your full rent) if you're in work but on a low income.

You can, in theory, claim housing benefit if you have no income (e.g. you've been sanctioned off JSA) but they will want to know how you're meeting your living expenses.

So what might suit your circumstances better (if you can) is to get a part time job that fits round the course, which means you'll not get poked with sticks by the job centre, and claim housing benefit, even if you'd be no better off than if you were on JSA.

There is at present no "available for and actively seeking work" element to housing benefit.

Of course this may all change whenever the monumental balls-up known as Universal Credit hits, as it sounds like anyone who's working part time but still claiming any benefits will start getting poked with sticks.

If in doubt, I suggest speaking to whatever the local welfare advice service there is.

 

[Kuso]

From my knowledge of these things, which is some years out of date and based on the law as it stands in England then, yes - if you're "available for and actively seeking work" then yes you can claim JSA.

This does mean that you'll be expected to jump through whatever hoops the job centre dangle, including spending lots of time applying for jobs that you know damn well you don't stand a chance of getting, and the risk of being sent on some crappy workfare scheme full time.

Are they going to be able to argue that your course stands in the way of your job-hunting (e.g. you'd not be able to put enough job hunting time in, or wouldn't be able to go for interviews, or in the way of getting a job?

If the course is (say) a couple of days a week, I can see that being a potential issue. If it's an evening a week, I can't see that being much of a problem.

This seems to be relevant page as regards N Ireland

Gut feeling is if in doubt, claim.

As regards housing benefit - this page says you can't claim HB if you're a full time student (again, broadly the same as in England.)

While claiming JSA means you can put a claim for HB in at the same time, Housing Benefit is not restricted only to people who are getting JSA (or other social security benefits) and it's not an all or nothing thing. You can claim (and get something, even if not your full rent) if you're in work but on a low income.

You can, in theory, claim housing benefit if you have no income (e.g. you've been sanctioned off JSA) but they will want to know how you're meeting your living expenses.

So what might suit your circumstances better (if you can) is to get a part time job that fits round the course, which means you'll not get poked with sticks by the job centre, and claim housing benefit, even if you'd be no better off than if you were on JSA.

There is at present no "available for and actively seeking work" element to housing benefit.

Of course this may all change whenever the monumental balls-up known as Universal Credit hits, as it sounds like anyone who's working part time but still claiming any benefits will start getting poked with sticks.

If in doubt, I suggest speaking to whatever the local welfare advice service there is.

Ta for the reply. I'm certainly going to claim. I was just hoping to find out some of the potential pitfalls, and maybe things to avoid saying down the JC! I know from my previous claim (prior to starting my phd) all the hoops etc I'll have to jump through. 'Luckily' what I'm qualified to do there's little/no work available here at the mo. I remember from before that they'd give me 6 months looking for a job I'm qualified for before they start making me apply for everything and anything. Not sure if that's still the case? And I'll hopefully be done in 6 months

Your first link was where I'd got the bit I'd put in quotes, about p/t students. And I run through the 'guesstimate' how much HB you're entitled to on their website too. Dunno how accurate it is though- considering they were going to give me more a month than I pay in rent... both allowing for being on JSA or £70/week self employed work. And the fact I'm in a 2bed place on my own.

I've bolded some bits in your reply I'll answer in turn:

I'm gonna be registered as part-time research student, UP TO 21 hours/ week in the lab, but I can do my lab time any time I want between 7am and 11pm so at least in theory I'd be able to fit a job around that.

Yeah, I know I can't claim if I'm full time, but I'm registering as part-time. I'll have enrollment letters from uni stating this as my status.

A p/t weekend job would be ideal, but it'd be as 'self employed'. Does this affect any entitlement to HB, even if it's still a 'low income', say £70/week? This could actually just end up complicating things as I'd get paid cash for that and it might be difficult to prove income etc.

Getting JSA isn't the major thing, although I WILL need some sort of job at some point- it's more the HB. If I can pay my rent then I'll manage to get by. It's just how I'd be able to get by isn't something I'd wanna share with them so a successful JSA claim that makes it easier to apply for HB seems a good idea. At least to start, and then if I do get a PAYE p/t job or pick up the self employed stuff again I can cross that bridge then.

 

[Kuso]

The last time I claimed JSA I was back living with my folks for a while, and obviously that meant no HB entitlement (even though they were charging me for staying there ).

What's the deal with renting accommodation from someone you're related to? Before I moved in she rented it through an agency, I've an official tenancy agreement n stuff. She doesn't have the same surname as me and as she's no longer in the country she has a 'representative' here, a friend of hers (no relation), who deals with problems with the flat etc.

Is this likely to be an issue? Or only if I were to volunteer that info?

 

[Kuso]

[quote="Puddy_Tat, post: 12537121, member: 41439"
If in doubt, I suggest speaking to whatever the local welfare advice service there is.[/quote]

sorry, one more question- where am I likely to find out who this is? via CAB maybe?

I've an appointment to see the financial VP of the student union but from experience they're useless at providing anything other than advice to undergraduates

 

[Puddy_Tat]

< stuff >

The CAB was who I meant - didn't know whether they ran in NI or whether there was something similar but different.

if English rules apply to HB, then you may have difficulty getting the full rent if you're claiming HB for a 2 bed place and living there on your own. If you're under 35 (in England) you're only generally entitled to rent a bedsit.

This has more on HB for NI.

The 'renting from a relative' is complicated. You're certainly not entitled to claim HB if you're living with a relative. If you're renting from a relative who doesn't live there, you might - this is the position in England

If you live in a property owned by a family member and pay them rent, you may be entitled to housing benefit. The council will want to take a detailed look at your agreement with your landlord. You won’t get housing benefit if:

• you're not paying rent on a commercial basis
• the arrangement has been set up to take advantage of the housing benefit system – this is called a ‘contrived tenancy’. For example, if your landlord only asks you to pay rent when you are not working (and so are eligible for housing benefit), but not when you are working (and earning too much to qualify for housing benefit), this would be a contrived tenancy.

from here

 

[Kuso]

The CAB was who I meant - didn't know whether they ran in NI or whether there was something similar but different.

if English rules apply to HB, then you may have difficulty getting the full rent if you're claiming HB for a 2 bed place and living there on your own. If you're under 35 (in England) you're only generally entitled to rent a bedsit.

This has more on HB for NI.

The 'renting from a relative' is complicated. You're certainly not entitled to claim HB if you're living with a relative. If you're renting from a relative who doesn't live there, you might - this is the position in England



from here

Thanks for that HB in NI link, hadn't seen that. There's just me living here, the relative is no longer in the country- hasn't been for years and the property was let through an agency for several years before I moved in. I've a proper tenancy agreement n that, going back to when I moved in and I suppose bank statements showing that this has been paid regularly for the last 2 1/2 years and so not done to 'take advantage of the HB system'.

Have you any idea if that's even a question on the forms? ie "Are you related to the person you rent from?" or some such?

I'd thought the second bedroom thing would be an issue, don't suppose it matters that it's never actually been a bedroom since before I moved in and doesn't have a bed in it? lol. So if I was to have a living room, 'dining room'/ office space and one bedroom..?

Does the second bedroom make you completely illegible or does it just reduce the amount you're entitled to?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Have you any idea if that's even a question on the forms? ie "Are you related to the person you rent from?" or some such?

Form is downloadable here (this is the NI housing benefit form) - it runs to 34 pages of PDF and I haven't trawled through it.

Does the second bedroom make you completely illegible or does it just reduce the amount you're entitled to?

If my understanding is correct, then it won't make you ineligible (I can't comment on your handwriting - ) but private tenancy HB claims are now based on the 'Local Housing Allowance' rate you're entitled to, which is based on combination of household size / age etc and the area you're in - more here.

The whole LHA thing has come in since I worked in the field, so I am a bit fuzzy on it, but my understanding is that if someone's household circumstances are such that they are only entitled to (say) the 'shared accommodation' rate, or the 1 bedroom rate, and they are renting somewhere bigger, then they would still get HB, but only up to the LHA rate they are entitled to. If the rent is higher than that, tough. If they are renting a cheap 2 bed flat that falls under the LHA limit for 1 bed flats, then I think they will be OK. Although again, I'd suggest

a) if in doubt, claim (you're not going to lose anything other than a bit of time by claiming and being told you're not entitled, but you will lose money by not claiming if you are entitled.)

b) seek local advice

 

[toggle]

You can claim HB/CTB as a part time student. I'm doing this atm. don't forget you loose your council tax exemption when you stop being a student.

Housing office people can either be on the ball or completely clueless. I've met both sorts. CAB often don't really get a lot of the relevant issues.

You can claim HB/CTB with variable income, although ti's a pain in the bum to do so. You need to take in proof of income at least monthly, they then readjust their calculations as to what you are entitled to. They often get this wrong and you will have to chase them up to get them to correct their mistakes.

 

[Kuso]

Form is downloadable here (this is the NI housing benefit form) - it runs to 34 pages of PDF and I haven't trawled through it.



If my understanding is correct, then it won't make you ineligible (I can't comment on your handwriting - ) but private tenancy HB claims are now based on the 'Local Housing Allowance' rate you're entitled to, which is based on combination of household size / age etc and the area you're in - more here.

The whole LHA thing has come in since I worked in the field, so I am a bit fuzzy on it, but my understanding is that if someone's household circumstances are such that they are only entitled to (say) the 'shared accommodation' rate, or the 1 bedroom rate, and they are renting somewhere bigger, then they would still get HB, but only up to the LHA rate they are entitled to. If the rent is higher than that, tough. If they are renting a cheap 2 bed flat that falls under the LHA limit for 1 bed flats, then I think they will be OK. Although again, I'd suggest

a) if in doubt, claim (you're not going to lose anything other than a bit of time by claiming and being told you're not entitled, but you will lose money by not claiming if you are entitled.)

b) seek local advice

cheers for the replies, seems I've even more reading to be doing- been trawling websites and hadn't even found the form and I'll get onto CAB and the student union people. hopefully between them and maybe the post-grad centre at the uni they'll be able to answer a few more questions/ point me in the right direction.

 

[Frances Lengel]

If you claim JSA under the 16 hour rule the jobcentre will probably make you sign something to say that you'll sack your course off should you get offered a position shovelling shit for ten pence an hour.

 

[Kuso]

You can claim HB/CTB as a part time student. I'm doing this atm. don't forget you loose your council tax exemption when you stop being a student.

Housing office people can either be on the ball or completely clueless. I've met both sorts. CAB often don't really get a lot of the relevant issues.

You can claim HB/CTB with variable income, although ti's a pain in the bum to do so. You need to take in proof of income at least monthly, they then readjust their calculations as to what you are entitled to. They often get this wrong and you will have to chase them up to get them to correct their mistakes.

Good, what I wanted to hear- that I wasn't being a complete idiot and could actually claim at least something.

CTB being council tax benefit? Not 100% sure that applies in NI, something I'll have to look into.

The thing re: variable income- how do you prove that if you're self employed and paid cash? Maybe for another thread?

 

[Kuso]

If you claim JSA under the 16 hour rule the jobcentre will probably make you sign something to say that you'll sack your course off should you get offered a position shovelling shit for ten pence an hour.

Fuck it, I'm sure I can manage to avoid being offered a shit shovelling job for the time it takes me to complete my studies . Besides, being able to be in the lab anytime between 7am-11pm means I'd deffo be able to fit in my up to 21 hours that I'm permitted to do.

Do you know if things have changed that much since 3 years ago- they told me then for 6 months they'd only expect me to look and apply for jobs I was qualified to do etc before they started expecting me to apply for anything that was work. This still the same or has it changed dya know?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

CTB being council tax benefit? Not 100% sure that applies in NI, something I'll have to look into.

The thing re: variable income- how do you prove that if you're self employed and paid cash? Maybe for another thread?

I believe NI still has rates (mainly because the thatcher government did not want to unite all communities against them by foisting the poll tax on NI) - and I would have thought there's a means-tested reduction scheme that works in a similar way to council tax benefit.

As for variable income, you're going to have to enquire locally, but I am sure you're not the first person to be in that sort of situation.

You'll presumably be registering as self employed with the income tax people and doing accounts for them.

I've no idea what the procedure is there / now, but when I did housing benefits work, we could cope with people who had variable incomes - we worked out an average wage over X period.

Being self-employed is certainly no barrier to claiming housing benefit.

I recall we had one client who was a busker in central London, and we accepted his declarations of income (I can't remember how we calculated his actual net income, i.e. after expenses etc) although at that council and at that time, the culture was that we wanted people to get what they were entitled to. Attitudes and policies can vary.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Fuck it, I'm sure I can manage to avoid being offered a shit shovelling job for the time it takes me to complete my studies . Besides, being able to be in the lab anytime between 7am-11pm means I'd deffo be able to fit in my up to 21 hours that I'm permitted to do.

Do you know if things have changed that much since 3 years ago- they told me then for 6 months they'd only expect me to look and apply for jobs I was qualified to do etc before they started expecting kme to apply for anything that was work. This still the same or has it changed dya know?

They have got a lot stricter & nowadays expect you to apply for any old bollocks. If you last signed on 3 years ago you'll barely recognise it now - Being unemployed's a full time job in itself these days. That was my experience anyway, it might be different in NI. Either way though, you're obviously not daft & I'm sure jobdodging's a skill you'll easily master.

 

[Kuso]

I believe NI still has rates (mainly because the thatcher government did not want to unite all communities against them by foisting the poll tax on NI) - and I would have thought there's a means-tested reduction scheme that works in a similar way to council tax benefit.

Just looking there, there is definitely rates- as you said. But from what I can tell they're included in my rent.

As for variable income, you're going to have to enquire locally, but I am sure you're not the first person to be in that sort of situation.

You'll presumably be registering as self employed with the income tax people and doing accounts for them.

I've no idea what the procedure is there / now, but when I did housing benefits work, we could cope with people who had variable incomes - we worked out an average wage over X period.

Being self-employed is certainly no barrier to claiming housing benefit.

Yeah, I've worked some hours self employed on/off for the last 3 years while studying so sorted with all that. Just not doing so at the minute as I was trying to finish my studies on time. Not sure if the job's still available tbh, so...

Cheers for all the replies so far puddyT, though I've just looked through the form , I'd rather write a second thesis ffs!

 

[Kuso]

They have got a lot stricter & nowadays expect you to apply for any old bollocks. If you last signed on 3 years ago you'll barely recognise it now - Being unemployed's a full time job in itself these days. That was my experience anyway, it might be different in NI. Either way though, you're obviously not daft & I'm sure jobdodging's a skill you'll easily master.

Yeah, would the "yeah, the job sounds great, but I'll be honest- I'm only planning on staying until I've finished my phd and then I'll be moving into a research job" line cut it?

 

[weepiper]

Yeah, would the "yeah, the job sounds great, but I'll be honest- I'm only planning on staying until I've finished my phd and then I'll be moving into a research job" line cut it?

No.

 

[Frances Lengel]

If you have to apply for a job you don't want mention on the form that you have a history of mental illness or something like that.

 

[toggle]

Good, what I wanted to hear- that I wasn't being a complete idiot and could actually claim at least something.

CTB being council tax benefit? Not 100% sure that applies in NI, something I'll have to look into.

The thing re: variable income- how do you prove that if you're self employed and paid cash? Maybe for another thread?

pay it into the bank and show bank statements. bakunin does this.

 

[toggle]

Yeah, would the "yeah, the job sounds great, but I'll be honest- I'm only planning on staying until I've finished my phd and then I'll be moving into a research job" line cut it?

No.

you will be expected to take it all astoundingly seriously. any sign you are not taking it seriously and following the rules to the letter and you will be sanctioned.

If you have to apply for a job you don't want mention on the form that you have a history of mental illness or something like that.

this might help.

as would stressing how overqualified you are for any position without actually saying that. I'd have thought a full acedemic CV would do the job until they catch on to that.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Indeed.

There is a dividing line between not quite being the right candidate and taking the piss.

(although some years ago, I was trying not to be very enthusiastic because I didn't want the dole office objecting, and managed to get the job...)

 

[toggle]

one thing to say is you cannot use any studying commitments as an excuse not to be availabel for work at any time. you are expected to be either fully flexible or quit the study at anytime. just nod along with this.

 

[Frances Lengel]

one thing to say is you cannot use any studying commitments as an excuse not to be availabel for work at any time. you are expected to be either fully flexible or quit the study at anytime. just nod along with this.

This can't be stressed enough - In order to be eligible for JSA you will have to say you're prepared to sack off all your studies for six weeks work sweeping up pubes in a merkin factory.

 

[Kuso]

Thanks for the advice on here Urbs- had my fresh claim thing today. They said it's not a problem me studying part-time and claiming. I provided proof of my p/t status and since it's research based, not classes and I've access to the labs 7am-11pm it wasn't limiting the hours I'd be available for work, as I could easily work my research round any prospective job so all good.

I do have a few HB questions, but might be appropriate for a new thread (though others might have asked the same questions, so I'll have a search first)