Jesus Myth Theory

[ska invita]

T You could try Who On Earth Was Jesus? by David Boulton for an up-to-date review of that field if it's your bag).

It is really interesting, and does appeal, but I'm happy in my ignorance. It'll never be proven for fact, and much as I like a good mystery, it really doesnt make any difference either way so I'm happy to leave it there.

 

[ska invita]

I'm not sure any of the accounts of Socrates, including Plato, are seen as accurate or trustworthy accounts of Socrates.

I dont think PLato invented him though...or did he? Maybe Socrates is one of Plato's Platonic Forms?? The Ultimate Ideal Philosopher!! I can feel a groundbreaking new book coming on

 

[ska invita]

This man clearly knows what he is talking about as he is sat in front of a bookshelf

 

[danny la rouge]

I dont think PLato invented him though...or did he?

Well, no: that's my point. He's unrealiable about the details of Socrates' life and sayings. But he's good evidence that he existed.

 

[Arty Drum]

''This man clearly knows what he is talking about as he is sat in front of a bookshelf''

Ah but the world is full of bookshelves. Coincidence or conspiracy?

 

[ska invita]

Wow, now you mention it - they're everywhere

 

[JimW]

This man clearly knows what he is talking about as he is sat in front of a bookshelf

Mind, if you look closely it's mostly Haynes manuals and old Shoot! annuals.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, there really were. Barrabas was probably one of them.

With a name/nickname that means "son of the father", it's highly likely.

 

[phildwyer]

With a name/nickname that means "son of the father", it's highly likely.

Don't Biblical scholars believe Barrabas was a violent anti-colonialist revolutionary, in contrast to Yeshua's pacifism? Isn't that what it means when he's called a "murderer?" So when the Jews choose Barrabas over Yeshua, they're opting for the path of violent revolution, which of course was the path they did follow historically, with disastrous results.

 

[danny la rouge]

With a name/nickname that means "son of the father", it's highly likely.

He famously gave Jesus advice about wild flowers; his chicory tip went down in history.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't Biblical scholars believe Barrabas was a violent anti-colonialist revolutionary, in contrast to Yeshua's pacifism? Isn't that what it means when he's called a "murderer?" So when the Jews choose Barrabas over Yeshua, they're opting for the path of violent revolution, which of course was the path they did follow historically, with disastrous results.

Revolutionary, violent or otherwise. Mind you, shucking off your family name for a pseudonym/nom de guerre would be an eminently-sensible move for a violent revolutionary, given the Roman propensity for occasional indulgence in "root and branch" elimination of dissent.

BTW, Zionists consider Masada etc as "heroic failures", not disasters.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He famously gave Jesus advice about wild flowers; his chicory tip went down in history.

You're a very sick man. Now I've got that awful fucking song playing in my head!

 

[danny la rouge]

That's what you get for encouraging Dwyer on a thread I was enjoying.

 

[phildwyer]

BTW, Zionists consider Masada etc as "heroic failures", not disasters.

An attitude which has fed the anti-semitic Christian myth that Jews are an inherently revolutionary breed. Particularly in the kind of anti-semitism that came out of the Vatican in the late C19th and early C20th, the choice of Barrabas was alleged to have determined the Jewish mentality for all time.

 

[bi0boy]

It might be worth looking at other contemporary figures and seeing what evidence there is for their existence. The twelve apostles, John the Baptist etc. What are the sources indicating
Pilate was prefect of Judea and what do they say about other people?

 

[danny la rouge]

It might be worth looking at other contemporary figures and seeing what evidence there is for their existence. The twelve apostles, John the Baptist etc. What are the sources indicating
Pilate was prefect of Judea and what do they say about other people?

Josephus is the recognised source for the region at the time. He mentions John and Pilot.

He was born just about the time Jesus was supposed to have died. The copies of his work that have come down to us were meddled with by Christian scribes who "improved" (in their view) the mentions of Jesus. But the consensus now seems to be that there were references to Jesus made by Josephus which formed the basis of those interpolations.

 

[Gromit]

People believe in dinosaurs because of fossil traces in rocks.

But they don't believe in Jesus when he leaves traces in pieces of toast

That all I have to say about the OP's lack of archeological evidence.

 

[Supine]

Im an athiest but fully believe he existed. He even has a shroud.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Isn't Jesus mentioned by the Roman Senator Tacitus in his Annals? He also mentioned that Jesus was executed by Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.

 

[bi0boy]

Isn't Jesus mentioned by the Roman Senator Tacitus in his Annals? He also mentioned that Jesus was executed by Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.

Hmmm, according to Wikipedia the line naming Jesus could have been inserted by Christians at a later date...

Josephus is the recognised source for the region at the time. He mentions John and Pilot.

He was born just about the time Jesus was supposed to have died. The copies of his work that have come down to us were meddled with by Christian scribes who "improved" (in their view) the mentions of Jesus. But the consensus now seems to be that there were references to Jesus made by Josephus which formed the basis of those interpolations.

I guess what's really needed is a stone tablet mentioning him to be discovered buried under some 1st century pottery or something.

 

[danny la rouge]

It's widely accepted that the additions "improved" the standing of Jesus but did not insert the mention of Jesus.

JP Meier suggests something like this, with the bold bits being the improvements. Remove them and you have an idea what the original may have read like:

"About this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out."

 

[butchersapron]

Seems to be some confusion/missed crossover between tacitus and josephus in the last few posts. He (J) later also made reference to 'the brother of jesus' as well which has not been challenged. And to go back to the OP, paul also mentions meeting jesus' bother (and other apostles) in jerusalem - the name etc being consistent with other sources giving the same names and bases of operations for those early churches.

 

[danny la rouge]

Seems to be some confusion/missed crossover between tacitus and josephus in the last few posts. He (J) later also made reference to 'the brother of jesus' as well which has not been challenged. And to go back to the OP, paul also mentions meeting jesus' bother (and other apostles) in jerusalem - the name etc being consistent with other sources giving the same names and bases of operations for those early churches.

Yes, I was still talking about Josephus in my last post. And you're right, there is the uncontested mention of Jesus' brother. (Although whether he meant an actual sibling or more figuratively is speculated upon still. But no matter - it's a non gospel record of Jesus).

 

[redsquirrel]

BTW there is a difference between Socrates and Jesus in this conversation: Plato was concerned with Truth and comes across today as a reliable source, whereas the assorted Christians comes across as fantasists, exaggerators and outright speakers of untruths - far less reliable.

What! Sorry but this is absolutely mad, the Socrates that occurs in Plato's writings, while based on a real person, is quite clearly a literary device. The Platonic Socrates is used by Plato as a tool for Plato to advance his philosophy.

It's also worth pointing out that the other written description of Socrates that we have doesn't agree particularly well with that of Plato's (can't remember the name of the top of my head but see Russell's History of Western Philosophy for a discussion on this point).

EDIT: Xenophon is the other major account we have of Socrates

 

[phildwyer]

It's also worth pointing out that the other written description of Socrates that we have doesn't agree particularly well with that of Plato's (can't remember the name of the top of my head but see Russell's History of Western Philosophy for a discussion on this point).

In reality, there are two non-Platonic depictions of Socrates: Aristophanes' and Xenophon's.

Xenophon's is identical to Plato's, while Aristophanes is a declared piss-take. It's reasonable to conclude that Plato's Socrates is historically accurate.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus of Nazareth was a real man who actually existed and led a religious cult that would eventually develop into what we now know as christianity. I was reading some stuff by Reza Aslan about this a bit back - we actually know a lot more about his brother James (who was arguably more important than the messiah himself in orgnising and expanding the cult into one of the three major monotheistic religions.

There is enough non-biblical evidence to back up the existence of someone called Jesus of Nazareth who claimed to be the king of the jews and was crucified for banditry for me to have no doubt. There is less (read no) non-biblical evidence for the supernatural bollocks.

 

[SpineyNorman]

 

[Arty Drum]

It's ANOTHER bookshelf. The fuckers are taking over...

 

[Dan U]

Nothing cerebral to add but really interesting thread, thanks.

Will check out some of the recommended reading

 

[Addy]

Immaculate conception bollocks..... 'Joseph was a peado' is one of the first Ladybird books.