jamaica - fastest nation on earth!!

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah.

It's sad really, Jamaica have been promising to put something proper in place for at least three years now and yet have failed to do so - and have also rejected participation what would seem to be the next-best regional alternative.


Makes ya wonder.


Woof

It's quite an important issue - not have proper testing O-O-C.





Woof

Yes Jessie. Again I say yes, that needs to be remedied not least to put a stop to all the speculation.

It isn't however proof of anything.

 

[Jessiedog]

Yes Jessie. Again I say yes, that needs to be remedied not least to put a stop to all the speculation.

Indeed, it would certainly help to assuage some of the doubts.

One wonders why it hasn't been done.

It isn't however proof of anything.

Indeed.


Woof

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hold on, did we just agree on something?

 

[Jessiedog]

Hold on, did we just agree on something?

Aye!




We agree on a great deal actually - which I guess is why we don't bicker toooooo much around the boards.

Good to see agreement here too.





Woof

 

[ymu]

Has this guy been using drugs then:

You couldn't rule it out on the basis of his physique. Unlike Bolt.

 

[Jessiedog]

You couldn't rule it out on the basis of his physique. Unlike Bolt.

Aye!


And paedophiles have goatees.




Woof

 

[ymu]

I don't know what particular drug or what particular cheating regime any particular athlete might have taken/undergone. Indeed, I imagine that neither you nor I are experts in the latest drug-cheating potions and methods.

You're missing the point. There is no known doping regimen which could produce Bolt's results without making him much bigger and bulkier than he is.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that there is some as yet unknown drug that somehow makes him yards faster than anyone else without bulking him up but Usain Bolt is the only person who has had access to it ever, but he's been taking it ever since he was 15.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

You couldn't rule it out on the basis of his physique. Unlike Bolt.

He's not massively bigger than Bolt IMO. He certainly isn't bulked up like Linford Christie.

I think you're well wrong with this line you keep pushing about Bolt's physique. Performance enhancing drugs aren't used purely to bulk up - they're used to allow athletes to train longer and recover faster. That's an advantage to any athlete, regardless of how big they are.

You're right to say that there's no more evidence of Bolt using steroids than any other athletes, and unless some shows up he should be left alone. It just isn't true to say it's impossible that he's been using them though.

 

[Jazzz]

You're missing the point. There is no known doping regimen which could produce Bolt's results without making him much bigger and bulkier than he is.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that there is some as yet unknown drug that somehow makes him yards faster than anyone else without bulking him up but Usain Bolt is the only person who has had access to it ever, but he's been taking it ever since he was 15.

I'm completely a Bolt fan and see no reason to doubt him, but this is a fallacious line you seem to be taking ymu.

You're effectively arguing that Bolt cannot be doping, because his results are too good! This is perverse logic.

Jessiedog is right - it's certainly possible as far as we know that there may be effective doping strategies which will assist atheletes without making them look like steroid queens. They might assist Bolt as any other. What no-one could possibly question is that Bolt has extraordinary talent.

 

[quimcunx]

He's certainly got long legs. I saw the relay team on their podium and the difference between his height and the guy next to him seemed to be all in the leg. i.e. His hips seemed to be the same difference higher than the next guy's as his head was. If that makes sense.

 

[Firky]

That's the tone i get specifically from you, madusa and ymu.

That's how it comes across to me.

I don't get that tone at all, and I know Madusa very well and have never ever got that impression. Although I will agree that some of the results of competitions are staggering that does not mean it is doping. You seem adamant. That is the problem.

 

[Firky]

As a side note: it is no secret that I have had 'problems' D) with rutita1 but she does raise very valid points.

 

[ymu]

He's not massively bigger than Bolt IMO. He certainly isn't bulked up like Linford Christie.

I think you're well wrong with this line you keep pushing about Bolt's physique. Performance enhancing drugs aren't used purely to bulk up - they're used to allow athletes to train longer and recover faster. That's an advantage to any athlete, regardless of how big they are.

You're right to say that there's no more evidence of Bolt using steroids than any other athletes, and unless some shows up he should be left alone. It just isn't true to say it's impossible that he's been using them though.

Bolt is not big enough, ffs!

What do you think is the point of sprinters using drugs to train longer and recover faster if not to build muscle? They don't need it for endurance.

I'm completely a Bolt fan and see no reason to doubt him, but this is a fallacious line you seem to be taking ymu.

You're effectively arguing that Bolt cannot be doping, because his results are too good! This is perverse logic.

Jessiedog is right - it's certainly possible as far as we know that there may be effective doping strategies which will assist atheletes without making them look like steroid queens. They might assist Bolt as any other. What no-one could possibly question is that Bolt has extraordinary talent.

Nonsense. I'm arguing that if there was a drug that could make someone that good, he'd not be the only person out there flying down the track, setting records decades ahead of expectation.

Plus he's only improved his 200m time by 0.9s since he was 15. Less than a second in 7 years - yeah, must be drugs!

It's just not plausible.

 

[Jessiedog]

You're missing the point. There is no known doping regimen which could produce Bolt's results without making him much bigger and bulkier than he is.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that there is some as yet unknown drug that somehow makes him yards faster than anyone else without bulking him up but Usain Bolt is the only person who has had access to it ever, but he's been taking it ever since he was 15.

You're just chucking red herrings around, ymu.

You point to Bolt's physique as evidence that he's not been cheating - simply 'cos he's not as "bulked up" as some others that have cheated (though he is, nevertheless, without doubt, a fine figure of a man).

I remain unconvinced, however, that you possess the requisite professional and technical expertise to assert that this is actually evidence of his non-cheat status. I assert that it is nothing of the kind.

The fact is that I don't know exactly what (new) drugs are being used to cheat, or exactly how the cheating regimes are implemented, nor exactly what measures are deployed to avoid detection - and neither, I suspect, do you.


Do you remember a certain young, woman athlete named Marion Jones?

From Wiki:

Throughout her entire athletic career—even in high school—Marion Jones had been accused, either outright or by implication, of taking performance enhancing drugs. Until 2007, Jones routinely denied—in almost every way possible and in almost any venue where the question arose—ever being involved with performance enhancers in any way, shape, or form. One of Jones's frequent statements in her own defense was that she had never tested positive for performance enhancing substances.

However, the rumors and accusations that started when Jones missed a random drug test in high school in the early 1990s (attorney Johnnie Cochran successfully got the four-year ban from track and field competition overturned) continued to follow her through two Olympiads and several championship meets. Soon, a pattern of Jones choosing to train with both coaches and athletes who were also being dogged by rumors and accusations of performance enhancement drugs began to emerge.

From the early days, pretty much all her coaches were drug-cheats. Later on, her husband (and coach) was a drug-cheat, her later boyfriend was also a drug-cheat.

Among other drugs, she was taking the now-infamous steriod Tetrahydrogestrinone (or THG or "The Clear"), which was undetectable until after the BALCO affair blew up in 2003/4.



Not exactly The Incredible Hulk, is she?

Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Plus he's only improved his 200m time by 0.9s since he was 15. Less than a second in 7 years - yeah, must be drugs!

Except that pretty much all of that improvement has happened over the last year.

And then there's the fact that:

On Wednesday, Bolt lowered his personal best in the 200 from 19.67 to 19.30 in one race.

I just want to be able to trust what I’m seeing.

Right now, that is not possible.

It is a futile parlor game to guess who is or is not using illicit substances. Only one thing is certain, as I have written before: Not a single performance at the Olympics, nor in any other elite sport, can be believed with any certainty to have been achieved without banned performance-enhancing drugs.

A clean urine sample means nothing. In fact, to get caught at the Olympics, where athletes know they will be screened, is more akin to failing an I.Q. test than a drug test.

Gina Kolata of The New York Times wrote last week that the latest way to beat a urine test is to drop in a grain of powdered laundry detergent. Brighteners, which are enzymes that break down proteins, will destroy EPO and human growth hormone in the sample.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22longman.html


It's a stupid game and it's not between the athletes, it's between the chemists.



Wioof

 

[exosculate]

You're just chucking red herrings around, ymu.

You point to Bolt's physique as evidence that he's not been cheating - simply 'cos he's not as "bulked up" as some others that have cheated (though he is, nevertheless, without doubt, a fine figure of a man).

I remain unconvinced, however, that you possess the requisite professional and technical expertise to assert that this is actually evidence of his non-cheat status. I assert that it is nothing of the kind.

The fact is that I don't know exactly what (new) drugs are being used to cheat, or exactly how the cheating regimes are implemented, nor exactly what measures are deployed to avoid detection - and neither, I suspect, do you.


Do you remember a certain young, woman athlete named Marion Jones?

From Wiki:







From the early days, pretty much all her coaches were drug-cheats. Later on, her husband (and coach) was a drug-cheat, her later boyfriend was also a drug-cheat.

Among other drugs, she was taking the now-infamous steriod Tetrahydrogestrinone (or THG or "The Clear"), which was undetectable until after the BALCO affair blew up in 2003/4.



Not exactly The Incredible Hulk, is she?

Woof

Good work Jessie

I think someone has just been OWNED!

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Stanozolol (Winstrol, Winthrop, Stromba)
Medical Use: Prescribed for hereditary angioedema, which causes episodes of swelling of the face, extremities, genitals, bowel wall, and throat.
Performance-Enhancing Use: For 'definition', you don't gain that much weight with it, but you still get stronger. Often used by pitchers who want stregth but not bulk.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Oh well that must be what the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc etc are taking.

Glad we've cleared that up!

 

[London_Calling]

Have you looked up the phrase 'straw man' at all?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Have you ever looked up the phrase 'give it a rest' at all?

 

[London_Calling]

Me?

Where the fuck did you come up with "Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc" from . . .

But you're right, I left you to it a couple of pages ago.

 

[ymu]

Duh! Of course you can use drugs to get strong without getting big - what do you think marathon runners use them for? Sprinters have to build short muscle fibre - which is bulky - and they use steroids to help them do it. There's a reason sprinters are huge when distance runners are stringy.

And ffs! Women can't build as much muscle as men, but Marion Jones was bigger than Usain Bolt.

I work with a biochemist who used to work in drug-testing. He reckons you can be 99% sure about a sprinter on the basis of physique alone. He told me Linford Christie was a cheat long before it came out. I didn't realise it was that simple before I met him - but he says it is. Bolt does not have the thighs of a body-builder.

 

[aylee]

Not exactly The Incredible Hulk, is she?

She's pretty mighty for a woman. I wouldn't like to take her on in an arm-wrestling match.

While Bolt's physique can't possibly be proof that he's not using substances, it does seem to me to exclude certain doping regimes .... mainly steroid-based substances.

As I said earlier, let's presume the man innocent until proven guilty, please.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Me?

That is correct.

Where the fuck did you come up with "Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc" from . . .

Read what's being siad on the thread...proof you can take some substances just to make you stronger etc and not bulk up.

But you're right, I left you to it a couple of pages ago.

Don't tell me you just happened to accidently click on this thread...

 

[Treacle Toes]

As I said earlier, let's presume the man innocent until proven guilty, please.

The voice of reason!

 

[Jessiedog]

Oh well that must be what the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc etc are taking.

Glad we've cleared that up!

Why the sarcasm, Rutita?




I thought I'd put a good deal of effort into demolishing ymu's, rather ill-informed, argument......

You cannot seriously be suggesting that there is some as yet unknown drug that somehow makes him yards faster than anyone else without bulking him up but Usain Bolt is the only person who has had access to it ever, but he's been taking it ever since he was 15.

Bolt is not big enough, ffs!

What do you think is the point of sprinters using drugs to train longer and recover faster if not to build muscle? They don't need it for endurance.

You're missing the point. There is no known doping regimen which could produce Bolt's results without making him much bigger and bulkier than he is.

.............

Stanozolol (Winstrol, Winthrop, Stromba)

Performance-Enhancing Use: For 'definition', you don't gain that much weight with it, but you still get stronger. Often used by pitchers who want strength but not bulk.

So I'm "missing the point".


Errrrrrrr.......


OK!





Woof

 

[ymu]

Yes Jessie. Now tell me why a sprinter would use drugs to obtain the physique of a long distance runner? You don't even know why they use steroids ffs!

 

[Jessiedog]

While Bolt's physique can't possibly be proof that he's not using substances, it does seem to me to exclude certain doping regimes .... mainly steroid-based substances.

Stanozolol (Winstrol, Winthrop, Stromba)

Performance-Enhancing Use: For 'definition', you don't gain that much weight with it, but you still get stronger. Often used by pitchers who want strength but not bulk.

Woof

 

[London_Calling]

That is correct.
Read what's being siad on the thread...proof you can take some substances just to make you stronger etc and not bulk up.

Well, there's been a conversation based on the absence of out of competition testing in Jamaica. Introducing stuff like "Kenyans, Ethiopians, Morrocans etc" without explanation suggests something less than a Bronze Medal in intellectual rigour.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why the sarcasm, Rutita?




I thought I'd put a good deal of effort into demolishing ymu's, rather ill-informed, argument......

You did Jessie, but it still doesn't prove anyone is up anything...I thought we had established that? I was being sarcastic because there is a massive scratch on this thread and it keeps jumping back to the same point. NONE of us know for sure regardless of the possibilities, give him the benefit of the doubt.

The good points made on this thread have been recognised but they are proof of nothing....but some seem so adamant it's bound to wind people up.