butchersapron
Bring back hanging
A more vacuous justification for some major changes relying on some supra-historical law to account for personal choices you could not find. Nor a more disgusting one.articletwo said:
iwca article on brixton
- Thread starter rednblack
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm going to burn your developement down you arrogant cunt. Better rack up your security rates.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is it? to who? And what er..are...you going to do when it happens?brix said:
That's offensive - fuck me. You're offensive. Fuck off you stupid yuppie bitch. Don't pay for it yet though. You never know.
I might get wind of your other place and burn that too. These lower classes do blab. Or your parents.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Tell me why though.brix said:
articletwo
Libertarian
Donna Ferentes said:
And it is just as wrong when the wealthy do it as when the poor do it. Closing off the riverside, mentioned in a later post, is truly outrageous.
Whenever you see an argument that says that it is okay for the poor/working class/downtrodden masses do something that it it wrong for the well-off to do, you know you are seeing hollow dogma.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If you live in a world entirely free of material context and differing conditons, not to mention unsupportable variations in power and ignorance of just how that power came to be accumulated in one groups hands and how it's sustained today, then yes, i suppose you are correct.
newbie
undisambiguated
articletwo said:
The author is arguing in favour of diversity, tolerance and inclusiveness which centrally includes the long term residents who are predominantly poor. His objection is to an influx of the well-off who want to erode that.
There was desparate poverty/decay in the 70s & 80s, accompanied by an influx of young outsiders making use of the vast amounts of abandoned housing. The area had, at one point, a huge squatting presence and included (what was said to be) the biggest gay concentration in Europe, the biggest lesbian separatist area in the world and provided an almost unparalleled opportunity to reinvent and experiment without the straightjacket of social democratic conformity. That was the starting point for regeneration.
That's what is under threat as the area gradually resumes its longterm position as dormitary for well off West End workers. That diversity, the opportunity to be whoever you want to be, is far less pronounced in otherwise comparable local areas. That's what drives the position Hatboy articulates (if I understand what he's said, and I really don't want to misrepresent him. I wish he was here to say it himself).
Stopping the tides of history isn't the point- because to do so would be to freeze the poorest into poverty and deprivation levels from which the area has only recently begun to emerge. But the interests of the poorest, and those with the fewest choices, runs alongside those of the diverse, because it's all being smothered by well-off, smug, individualistic conformity.
And experience indicates that most of the incoming conformists will leave within just a few years, taking their housing profits with them, and selling to someone just like them.
articletwo
Libertarian
newbie said:
Do the "well-off" really want to erode that? What real evidence is there for that, other than some anecdotes?
newbie said:
Again, what evidence is there for that? I see a lot of live-and-let-live: people here generally tolerating whatever others want to do, as long as they don't shove any illegal elements of it in their faces (pace drug sellers outside the Tube).
newbie said:
Really, who knows: I see a lot of families with young children in the area that I live, who look as if they are going to be here for a while. That is certainly our intention - after having a typical peripatetic and isolated flat-dweller life across London for more than ten years, we have moved here to have a family and put down some roots.
What surprises me about this thread is the visceral prejudice of those who haven't met me, know nothing about me or my views, simply because I am a member of a hated group - "incomers". Obviously I know prejudice exists in our society, and I have previously experienced very small amounts of it as a Catholic (yes, there is still some anti-Catholicism left in the UK, although more in the north than the south), but to come up against in its rawest form is rather saddening.
editor
hiraethified
Congratulations! You've managed to spurn a regular poster into making their first ever reported post with that abusive post.butchersapron said:
Seeing as it contains personal abuse and a deeply unpleasant threat to burn down property, I'm putting you on a 48hr ban to cool down.
It is not acceptable to post up such threats on these boards. Ever. Even if you later claim you don't really mean it.
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
I am one of the incomers into Brixton, having moved here a few years ago. Perhaps I should feel guilty. But on consideration, I salve my conscience with the following thoughts.
I spend money round here in local businesses, and pay the council tax. That means jobs.
Brixton was not paradise before I arrived. It is not now that I am here, and will have problems when and if I ever leave.
Hb's article seems to focus on changes apparently wrought by the middle class influx into Brixton, but the big problems in Lambeth have little to do with my arrival. It's true that I own a house, but the council didn't sell it to me. The run down in local authority stock has to do with Right to Buy legislation, embraced by many residents, and the decision by central government not to allow councils to reinvest the cash from sales in housing.
The shortage of housing and the forcing up of prices is a national problem, not one simply found here in Brixton, and the failure of successive governments to deal with it may cost future generations dearly.
Neither had I anything to do with the local authority's disastrous education policy, which has led to school closures and the area's children having to leave the borough to receive secondary education, or reportedly having no school to go to at all.
The drug problem in Brixton is widely written about on this forum, but suffice it to say the availability of (what was then) affordable housing, and its proximity to my workplace, was a much bigger factor in my decision to come here than the availability of skunk/weed. One factor that draws many people like me to move to Brixton is the fact that its on the Victoria line tube, for example.
I admit that I'm white, and earn decent money. But despite my arrival Brixton seems pretty diverse to me, and is changing all the time. Since I got to London in the mid nineties, thousands of Poles and other Eastern Europeans from the new EU states have arrived, and some of them have popped up in local businesses.
And I notice that my recently opened local off licence is run by two West African men, and I read in The Economist that infact the African community in London now outnumbers the West Indian one.
So the changes here have many dimensions, and its wrong to characterise them as simply being from black to white.
The fact is London's health as a city is linked with dynamic social change, with ethnicities and classes moving in and out faster than almost anywhere else in the UK. It's a big pot of people and money, and authors from Dickens onwards have been noting how cruel London, and cities in general can be, to those who aren't numbered among society's winners.
I think hatboy ought to be invited back to defend his article; my criticism of it would be that Brixton's problems are wider than the piece appreciates, and can't really be blamed on one social group.
What's to be done? In my opinion the government needs to re-invigorate investment in social housing, put some more muscle into its efforts to provide education to the borough's children and firmly back the police in their efforts to provide the area with a good quality of law and order.
But its pointless trying to get me on a guilt trip for moving to Brixton; it'll never happen. Neither will I move out in the face of threats. Better to urge me and the rest of my kind to lend support to constructive things going on in our community, rather than attack us for daring to arrive here.
I spend money round here in local businesses, and pay the council tax. That means jobs.
Brixton was not paradise before I arrived. It is not now that I am here, and will have problems when and if I ever leave.
Hb's article seems to focus on changes apparently wrought by the middle class influx into Brixton, but the big problems in Lambeth have little to do with my arrival. It's true that I own a house, but the council didn't sell it to me. The run down in local authority stock has to do with Right to Buy legislation, embraced by many residents, and the decision by central government not to allow councils to reinvest the cash from sales in housing.
The shortage of housing and the forcing up of prices is a national problem, not one simply found here in Brixton, and the failure of successive governments to deal with it may cost future generations dearly.
Neither had I anything to do with the local authority's disastrous education policy, which has led to school closures and the area's children having to leave the borough to receive secondary education, or reportedly having no school to go to at all.
The drug problem in Brixton is widely written about on this forum, but suffice it to say the availability of (what was then) affordable housing, and its proximity to my workplace, was a much bigger factor in my decision to come here than the availability of skunk/weed. One factor that draws many people like me to move to Brixton is the fact that its on the Victoria line tube, for example.
I admit that I'm white, and earn decent money. But despite my arrival Brixton seems pretty diverse to me, and is changing all the time. Since I got to London in the mid nineties, thousands of Poles and other Eastern Europeans from the new EU states have arrived, and some of them have popped up in local businesses.
And I notice that my recently opened local off licence is run by two West African men, and I read in The Economist that infact the African community in London now outnumbers the West Indian one.
So the changes here have many dimensions, and its wrong to characterise them as simply being from black to white.
The fact is London's health as a city is linked with dynamic social change, with ethnicities and classes moving in and out faster than almost anywhere else in the UK. It's a big pot of people and money, and authors from Dickens onwards have been noting how cruel London, and cities in general can be, to those who aren't numbered among society's winners.
I think hatboy ought to be invited back to defend his article; my criticism of it would be that Brixton's problems are wider than the piece appreciates, and can't really be blamed on one social group.
What's to be done? In my opinion the government needs to re-invigorate investment in social housing, put some more muscle into its efforts to provide education to the borough's children and firmly back the police in their efforts to provide the area with a good quality of law and order.
But its pointless trying to get me on a guilt trip for moving to Brixton; it'll never happen. Neither will I move out in the face of threats. Better to urge me and the rest of my kind to lend support to constructive things going on in our community, rather than attack us for daring to arrive here.
newbie
undisambiguated
articletwo said:
'want' is the wrong word- me bad, I can't speak to the motivation behind the effect. But the effect is apparent.
Does anyone have the URL for the study that was done a year or two back- here, Telegraph Hill, couple of other places?
Young children yes, mostly queueing to get into Sudbourne but wait until you have to select a secondary school. You'll have difficulties, which I'm sure your intentions and determination will overcome. Then look around you and watch the others in your position either leave the area or scramble to get their kids into somewhere like Alleyns. That's anecdotal, but also bourne out by the study above and the census info- look it up, there's a major shortfall of teenagers in the area, but not of the equivalent primary age kids.
Why do you think it's prejudice against you personally? This isn't personal, but you're as much responsible for your effect on the area in which you live as anyone else. Statistically, and anecdotally, the effect recent incomers are having on the area has been to price out the kids brought up here and the longterm residents, to replace the useful shops with bars and clubs, and to turn the area into a playground for 20- and 30-somethings with disposable West End incomes. If that's not applicable to you personally then don't take it so. If it is, then forgive me for pointing it out, but actually there are those of us that find it more than a little concern.
And yes, nobody is stupid enough to want to pickle the area in the poverty and disadvantage of a few years ago. The influx of money has had positive effects, of course.
Someone gave me this article a couple of months back, and as a new mortgaged-up arrival to Brixton (although not to Lambeth) I felt some initial guilt on reading it.
But I came to terms with it because I don't live here because its trendy, or want to make money out of living here. It is the same sense of cohesion and inclusion that HB notes in his article, that make me want to live here. Brixton seems to be one of the few places in London that have survived the Thatcher mantra of No such thing as society where everything has a price (assuming you can pay).
That private ownership of new arrivals is going to increase is almost inevitable. None of the main parties have a viable social housing policy and are all relying on the market to provide housing for people (even affordable housing only remains so for one generation of ownership). The option of mass council housing and long term renting (on fair terms) that was avaliable to my parents generation just dont exist any more.
The question is how can it be managed to maintain what makes Brixton special? As long as people from all backgrounds keep on coming to Brixton for what it and a mix of housing is maintained (owned, rented, council, squatted) I think it can.
The trouble is the council's approach doesn't seem to bode well for this. It seems to be focused people on attracting people onthe back of a trendy night time economy that increasingly doesnt cater for those who live here; St Agnes shows they have little interest in the value of a community vs its capital value; whist their continued sale of every property they can get their off their hands (including many low rent and council places) threatens the cultural mix that could end up in monoculture.
But I came to terms with it because I don't live here because its trendy, or want to make money out of living here. It is the same sense of cohesion and inclusion that HB notes in his article, that make me want to live here. Brixton seems to be one of the few places in London that have survived the Thatcher mantra of No such thing as society where everything has a price (assuming you can pay).
That private ownership of new arrivals is going to increase is almost inevitable. None of the main parties have a viable social housing policy and are all relying on the market to provide housing for people (even affordable housing only remains so for one generation of ownership). The option of mass council housing and long term renting (on fair terms) that was avaliable to my parents generation just dont exist any more.
The question is how can it be managed to maintain what makes Brixton special? As long as people from all backgrounds keep on coming to Brixton for what it and a mix of housing is maintained (owned, rented, council, squatted) I think it can.
The trouble is the council's approach doesn't seem to bode well for this. It seems to be focused people on attracting people onthe back of a trendy night time economy that increasingly doesnt cater for those who live here; St Agnes shows they have little interest in the value of a community vs its capital value; whist their continued sale of every property they can get their off their hands (including many low rent and council places) threatens the cultural mix that could end up in monoculture.
editor
hiraethified
So you think it's OK to call women "birtches" and threaten to burn down their houses, then?easy g said:
Anyone acting like that can expect to be banned so you can shove your "ooooh the mods are soooooo unfair" bullshit where the sun don't shine.
Oh, and you've got completely the wrong reporting poster, btw, but I'm sure you won't let that trifling fact get in the way of your stirring.
editor said:So you think it's OK to call women "birtches" and threaten to burn down their houses, then?
Anyone acting like that can expect to be banned so you can shove your "ooooh the mods are soooooo unfair" bullshit where the sun don't shine.
Oh, and you've got completely the wrong reporting poster, btw, but I'm sure you won't let that trifling fact get in the way of your stirring.
I thought the guidelines about abuse were if the person being abused found it offensive....
no stirring...you just didn't make it clear...
and I'll call women birtches if I want to...
newbie
undisambiguated
memespring said:
I seriously doubt that's true, there are plenty of other places which have community, many without disfunctionality. But there have been a combination of factors over many years that seem to have made Brixton seem more desirable, to specific groups, than other places. Pretty obvious examples of that might include Jayday and Urban75. The profile has been higher than other places, and somehow what used to be crime n grime has been rebranded as edgy & vibrant. GOK how.
editor
hiraethified
If you think that this board is a place where posters can call women "bitches" and threaten to burn their houses down just because they disagree with their opinion, you're in the wrong place.easy g said:
People who do that get banned, whoever they are.
But seeing as you've (predictably) waded in again, perhaps you might explain your specific complaint in this instance. Exactly what are you whining about?
Or do you think we should let people make such threats and call women bitches if they're your friends?
Is that what you want here?
articletwo
Libertarian
Fair point, and indeed we bought our house from people for whom that was one of the reasons they left. However, surely the solution is to get a new secondary school here in Brixton - I know there is a campaign to do that, and it deserves support. The fact that over in Clapham they got the new academy shows what can be done.newbie said:
Whether or not it is meant personally, if someone attacks a group that I de facto belong to, in this case "incomers", of course I am going to take it personally.newbie said:
I am no fan either of the town centre being full of bars that serve a kiddie market that likes to stand up in crowded loud bars and drink gassy lager. But I am not sure that has very much to do with the incomers who come to live in Brixton - judging by how busy the Tube is, a lot of people come to Brixton from elsewhere for a night out. And hey, if Brixton is good at that, why not let it expand - it creates jobs and puts money into the local economy (albeit late at night). As long as some kind of reasonable balance can be achieved with those of us locals who are less interested in the throbbing nightlife.newbie said:
But this is London, and those kind of trade-offs have to be made all over the place. And they are best made by communities collectively, rather than different bits pointing the finger at one another.
Is 'quaffing' a local term or has that been imported and forced upon the locals by some of this new influx?
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