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iwca article on brixton

It is good and will no doubt ruffle some feathers as intended.

But I'm not sure about the idea that '...certainly Brixton used to be a place where you didn't have to be either wealthy or conventional to live… to count.' is entirely accurate.

If you're not wealthy, ie poor, then surely that has always meant that you just don't 'count' in the same way wherever you might live?

Is it the case that being poor in Brixton was somehow uniquely better or easier than being poor in areas in other cities like Liverpool, Belfast, Birmingham etc?

Being poor means usually living a harder, shorter and less satisfied life wherever you are?!

Nevertheless - good for Mr Bakalite!
 
Minnie_the_Minx said:
Well he's spot on as far as I'm concerned
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Have you checked the name of the writer btw? Good to see someone familiar back on form and doing something constructive.
;)

I'd agree with the basic sentiment of much of the article. But I also suspect that we always tend to have rose-tinted visions of our impact on the area. Just as the West Indian influx changed the area, as did the 'liberal colonisers' who harnessed the low property values to move in and guide the character of the area again. That generation's mostly grown up and moved on - witness the 'flight' of the West Indian community further out to more family friendly and cheaper areas, or the number of places in central Brixton now rented out by those early 'liberal' colonisers.

I also think it's unfair to place most of the blame on the young influx (Yuppies whatever) for the changing character. It's a different property market now - many previous Brixton residents have benefitted from that development, for better or worse. Similarly IME many of those moving in, even those oft maligned middle-class kids, have largely left-leaning sympathies and an appreciation of Brixton's vitality - that's what attracted them there in the first place, just as the generation before.

It's a different world now though, different expectations, less parties and squats to unite, less social housing, entertainment more specialised and polarised, everything cleaned up and 'officially' licensed around the country. And those at different life stages may have different priorities now - not everyone can stay young, child-untroubled and tolerant of the 'edgy' environment forever. Some of the loudest and least tolerant voices are from older Brixtonians.
 
An excellent article, well done HB. :)

Wonder if it's worth sending it to the council to see what their response is?

On another point, i think it's important that people respond to council's latest "revitalise" booklet and tell them exactly what they think of it.
 
And he only managed to mention “hip” and “edgy” twice!

It's a good article although I can't see how gentrification can be blamed for the demise of Harmony/Mingles. Every time I've gone past it's been near-empty and the airport-type security was hardly a welcoming introduction to the place.

The sad fact is that traditional, old-school pubs are shutting down at a rate of knots everywhere ("26 every month"), and are coming under an attack of changing tastes, health fads, the growth of corporate drinking sheds and the rise of licensed lounge/cafes.
 
tarannau said:
I'd agree with the basic sentiment of much of the article. But I also suspect that we always tend to have rose-tinted visions of our impact on the area. Just as the West Indian influx changed the area, as did the 'liberal colonisers' who harnessed the low property values to move in and guide the character of the area again. That generation's mostly grown up and moved on - witness the 'flight' of the West Indian community further out to more family friendly and cheaper areas, or the number of places in central Brixton now rented out by those early 'liberal' colonisers.
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So much so that marketing people have a specific category - quite big slightly south of Brixton in areas like Tulse Hill 'settled minorities' is what Experian/Mosaic call it.
 
Agree or disagree with Hatboy at least he is consistant and strongly believes in what he says.

As he is banned from this site and doesn't have right of reply I think we should not debate his views and try and pick holes in them.
 
fanta said:
If you're not wealthy, ie poor, then surely that has always meant that you just don't 'count' in the same way wherever you might live?

Is it the case that being poor in Brixton was somehow uniquely better or easier than being poor in areas in other cities like Liverpool, Belfast, Birmingham etc?
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i don't think living here was easier,but people had/have a pride is saying they come from Brixton that i have never come across anywhere else in the country.in most places,people who are born in a place are proud to come from that place.for me and many like me Brixton took me in and gave me a sense of identity.
 
Mr Retro said:
Agree or disagree with Hatboy at least he is consistant and strongly believes in what he says.

As he is banned from this site and doesn't have right of reply I think we should not debate his views and try and pick holes in them.
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He's had an article published, so I believe it's fair to comment on the content. HB has, unfortunately, lost the right to reply on this forum, but unless we start widening the discussion or start 'playing the man' I reckon it's fair to comment on the article itself.

More positively I reckon it's been quite an decent set of constructive posts all round. And I suspect there's nothing there that anyone wouldn't say to HB face to face. Good on him for his efforts as well - he's writing well and has obciously got a good run on.

:)
 
tarannau said:
He's had an article published, so I believe it's fair to comment on the content. HB has, unfortunately, lost the right to reply on this forum, but unless we start widening the discussion or start 'playing the man' I reckon it's fair to comment on the article itself.

More positively I reckon it's been quite an decent set of constructive posts all round. And I suspect there's nothing there that anyone wouldn't say to HB face to face. Good on him for his efforts as well - he's writing well and has obciously got a good run on.

:)
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I agree tarannau but just making the point.
 
Mr Retro said:
As he is banned from this site and doesn't have right of reply I think we should not debate his views and try and pick holes in them.
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We're discussing an article which he elected to publish so I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be discussed here - like any other published article.

Personal attacks on hatboy are, however, a different matter of course. They will be removed.
 
editor said:
We're discussing an article which he elected to publish so I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be discussed here - like any other published article.

Personal attacks on hatboy are, however, a different matter of course. They will be removed.
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Ya, I'm wrong to say we shouldn't debate his views but people commenting about Hatboy when they know more about him than the article reveals isn't fair.

But you've made it clear above so thanks.
 
linerider said:
i don't think living here was easier,but people had/have a pride is saying they come from Brixton that i have never come across anywhere else in the country.in most places,people who are born in a place are proud to come from that place.for me and many like me Brixton took me in and gave me a sense of identity.
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tbh I think that's a rather recent phenomenon. It's not so many years ago that Brixton almost didn't exist because its reputation was so bad, and so widespread, that admitting an association with the place would always lead to the same boring discussion about mugging, race, riots and so on. And very suspicious looks. That, coupled with the East Clapham, North Streatham stuff from estate agents and redlining by insurance companies, marginalised the place and the people who lived here.
 
newbie said:
tbh I think that's a rather recent phenomenon. It's not so many years ago that Brixton almost didn't exist because its reputation was so bad, and so widespread, that admitting an association with the place would always lead to the same boring discussion about mugging, race, riots and so on. And very suspicious looks. That, coupled with the East Clapham, North Streatham stuff from estate agents and redlining by insurance companies, marginalised the place and the people who lived here.
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I still get some of this shit from my colleagues -- usually the ones that live in the Home Counties.
 
I think everybody does.

My ex-landlady had an experience not long ago involving her being in a pub on Coldharbour Lane (not that one) and running into somebody she hadn't seen since school. (Said individual was later at university with me - it's a small world.) She asked "what are you doing here?" and they told her they were going to the Academy - they asked her "what are you doing here?" and she told them "I live here". They looked at her as if she were kidding. And we all know that look, I think.
 
Yes, that look. But there's another, newer, one which is I think what linerider was on about: 'wow, that's cool, edgy, vibrant....'. It's almost impossible not to respond with ... is pride the right word?, something positive anyway.

It's almost always accompanied by "... sounds great but I couldn't afford to live there..." I'm never sure if that's genuine or camouflage for race/drugs/mugging. Maybe it's just me being over sensitive, of course.

I still just wave generally and mumble Sarf Lunnon to deflect some conversations.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
They looked at her as if she were kidding. And we all know that look, I think.
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i get a similar look when i tell people i live in hackney
 
newbie said:
tbh I think that's a rather recent phenomenon. It's not so many years ago that Brixton almost didn't exist because its reputation was so bad, and so widespread, that admitting an association with the place would always lead to the same boring discussion about mugging, race, riots and so on. And very suspicious looks. That, coupled with the East Clapham, North Streatham stuff from estate agents and redlining by insurance companies, marginalised the place and the people who lived here.
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i've been round this area on and off for over 20 years and it's always felt like that to me.i think that the repution was one of the reasons that people moved here.it kept the yuppies out and allowed more freedom to create things outside the mainstream than anywhere else i've been. this is something that the council seem to want to stamp out.
 
That article wouldn't have looked out of place in Little-Marsh-Under-The-Wold Parish Recorder (motto "You b'aint be a local 'til you have lived here for 30 years").
One of the great things about living London (as opposed to the sticks) is the dynamism of a big city - things change, develop, people come and go. Brixton is a good example: wealthy at the end of the C19th then becoming progressively poorer through to the mid-C20th century - which must be a reason that immigrants with little money came here, in the search for cheap housing. Things move on, the immigrants who came in the 1950s and 60s have retired, maybe made some money on their homes if they were able to buy, some decide to move on, and new people move in. It is the eternal cycle of the metropolis, and it would ruin London if any group (rich, poor, black, white) were able to stop the clock at any point in time and say that from now on the tides of change were halted.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
I think everybody does.

She asked "what are you doing here?" and they told her they were going to the Academy - they asked her "what are you doing here?" and she told them "I live here". They looked at her as if she were kidding. And we all know that look, I think.
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Or as a friend of mine says (only half joking):

"I live in Brixton when I'm trying to pull a bird. I live in Clapham North when I'm at a job interview".
 
articletwo said:
It is the eternal cycle of the metropolis, and it would ruin London if any group (rich, poor, black, white) were able to stop the clock at any point in time and say that from now on the tides of change were halted.
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In fact, wealthy people spend a great deal of time preventing change happening to them, while engineering it, adversely, against the poor.

Whenever you see rich and poor equated, there's a splendid chance that you're looking at a specious argument.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
In fact, wealthy people spend a great deal of time preventing change happening to them, while engineering it, adversely, against the poor.
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Every time I hear or read something likethat I think of the Thames Walkway along by Bermondsey.

Here there are new houses on the river for the rich. These houses were built long after the council houses that are a bit bit off the river. Now the new houses block off the poors view of the river. In many cases even the access to the walkway along the river is (probably illegally) blocked.

So nothing changes for the rich in that they still live in the best houses but they have pushed the poor down a bit further by making their livng conditions a bit worse.
 
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