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It's starting... "Deregulation, cutting red tape"

free spirit said:
all of them.
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Tory trade union bill legal under EU law. Working Time Directive not compulsory. Equal rights law originated here in the UK. Same with paternity rights and anti-discrimination. We fucking led the world on all these issues, and just because things have continued to improve since joining the EU, it does not mean that the EU was responsible. Change doesn't work like that. The Tories and the EU have no reason to gift us rights other than that they know they have to in the face of whatever power British labour has left.

All is power. No such thing as gifts from these cunts. They don't care about you or me.
 
diamarzipan said:
we have been affected in a tangible way though, because measures were taken to meet the targets- welfare cuts, increasing pension age. Ok they can't sanction us. It's still added pressure though right?
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The measures were taken voluntarily by this government because they were wedded to the same bankrupt ideology that underpinned the stability and growth pact, but any other government would be free to ignore it entirely.
 
ItWillNeverWork said:
Tory trade union bill legal under EU law. Working Time Directive not compulsory. Equal rights law originated here in the UK. Same with paternity rights and anti-discrimination. We fucking led the world on all these issues, and just because things have continued to improve since joining the EU, it does not mean that the EU was responsible. Change doesn't work like that. The Tories and the EU have no reason to gift us rights other than that they know they have to in the face of whatever power British labour has left.

All is power. No such thing as gifts from these cunts. They don't care about you or me.
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see my 'eta' expansion on the initial post.

I know none of this is gifts from the EU, the point being that they are effectively gifts from the continental left where the unions are far stronger in many countries than they are here after 4 decades of attacks.
 
stethoscope said:
It's the EU and IMF that are behind the demands on the French 'socialist' government to reform (and weaken) historical labour/workers rights in order to make their labour force and market 'more flexible', in case anyone has not noticed this happening right now.
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And France is the only one wanting to veto this
What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you
Cameron wanted to put " jet boosters' on completing this deal, anybody thinking the EU has WC interests at heart is very blinkered.
 
I do worry we've jumped out of the Eu frying pan in to a US fire, but I do follow the argument that any victories we may win against these forces are worth more out of the EU.

It's a shit situation for sure. What's clear is government will try and deregulate deeper. It's a certainty. Another round of Tories with new enthusiasm are coming..... Hopefully without a labour party chasing their policies ....

But maybe arguments to fight that will be more powerful at the start of this new post-exit wave, as there'll be more attention paid as to what a post eu uk should look like...
 
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free spirit said:
The measures were taken voluntarily by this government because they were wedded to the same bankrupt ideology that underpinned the stability and growth pact, but any other government would be free to ignore it entirely.
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Didn't really answer my question, I know they are. I'm suggesting there's pressure to adhere to the convergence programme and politicians/parties have u-turned when faced with a lot less than fines/sanctions even just on a domestic level. But this is a derail- and I'm not sure that they wouldn't find it easy to ignore it entirely, just exploring the idea :)
 
So what the remainers seem to be saying is that there is a nice EU and a nasty EU and by the good judgment of our tory overlords we have only signed up to the nice bits. So we can just ignore Greece, it's not relevant.

As for the OP, politicians talk a lot of shit that never becomes a reality. Especially when trying to court support from their own supporters. There is a long way to go before anything they say becomes a policy idea, let alone actually becoming law.
 
emanymton said:
So what the remainers seem to be saying is that there is a nice EU and a nasty EU and by the good judgment of our tory overlords we have only signed up to the nice bits. So we can just ignore Greece, it's not relevant.

As for the OP, politicians talk a lot of shit that never becomes a reality. Especially when trying to court support from their own supporters. There is a long way to go before anything they say becomes a policy idea, let alone actually becoming law.
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not ignore greece, but we could safely work within the EU to change that situation for the better without there being any danger of us ever being hit by Greece style sanctions.

yes it's partly by luck that we've ended up in this situation, but we are in that situation and IMO it's an abdication of our responsibilities to just piss off and leave the likes of Greece to it when we are in such a privileged position.

That's assuming that we ever ended up with a left of centre government - at the moment it's still working the other way in the UK, with the EU in general being to the left of us (or at least a significant enough portion of it), and there are many elements that are protected by EU directives that the Tories are likely to now rip up between now and 2020, as indicated in the OP of this thread.
 
free spirit said:
not ignore greece, but we could safely work within the EU to change that situation for the better without there being any danger of us ever being hit by Greece style sanctions.

yes it's partly by luck that we've ended up in this situation, but we are in that situation and IMO it's an abdication of our responsibilities to just piss off and leave the likes of Greece to it when we are in such a privileged position.

That's assuming that we ever ended up with a left of centre government - at the moment it's still working the other way in the UK, with the EU in general being to the left of us (or at least a significant enough portion of it), and there are many elements that are protected by EU directives that the Tories are likely to now rip up between now and 2020, as indicated in the OP of this thread.
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The point of looking to Greece, is not to say that the EU could do the same to us. They can't, and not because we are not in the Eur or because of what bits if paper we have or have not signed. But frankly because we are not Greece and our economic situation is totally different. No the reason to look to Greece is because it us the EU project laid bare, it is the EU unfettered. It shows that the EU leaders care nothing for people (big suprise there) it shows the lauded protections offered by the EU are nothing more than fig leaves. I mean, the working time directive for Christ's sake. Yes, because it is so important to make business give employees a extra bit of paper to sign as they are forced to opt out of it.

The EU offers nothing of value to working class people. That is what remain supporters don't get. Everyone thought remain would win, because come the crunch it was expected that remain would get a boost as people would vote to maintain the status quo. But that didn't happen, because when it came to the crunch, people looked at the status quo, and went, 'fuck it its got to be better than this'. They asked themselves if they were prepared to risk what they had for the chance of something better, and the answer was yes they were.

And they were right to do so. Inside the EU there is no possibility of reversing the the political and economic path we have been going down for the last few decades, outside the EU we at least have the possibility of changing direction. Will we manage it? Very possibly not, but at least outside there is a chance. Inside or outside the EU chances are all we will get is more of the same, but at least outside we would have a chance (however small) of something better. Those of us who support leave can at least offer that, just a little bit of hope. To support remain is to offer nothing at all.
 
emanymton said:
And they were right to do so. Inside the EU there is no possibility of reversing the the political and economic path we have been going down for the last few decades, outside the EU we at least have the possibility of changing direction. Will we manage it? Very possibly not, but at least outside there is a chance. Inside or outside the EU chances are all we will get is more of the same, but at least outside we would have a chance (however small) of something better. Those of us who support leave can at least offer that, just a little bit of hope. To support remain is to offer nothing at all.
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Hmmm. You've just made your position bullet-proof - whatever bad shit happens, at least we tried. (And it's also a fantasy position that suggests one coherent idea behind the leave vote that is not there - 60 per cent tory voters voted leave, 65 percent labour voters voted remain; there is a split between old and young and a big split regionally: this is no kind of coalition for change away from neoliberalism. )

It is also implying way too much power to the EU, as if it were the EU that privatised British industry and services, the EU that pissed oil money against the wall, the EU that largely destroyed British manufacturing, the EU that neglected various regions left depressed by the destruction of industry, and the EU that attacked the British welfare state. It wasn't.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Hmmm. You've just made your position bullet-proof - whatever bad shit happens, at least we tried. (And it's also a fantasy position that suggests one coherent idea behind the leave vote that is not there - 60 per cent tory voters voted leave, 65 percent labour voters voted remain; there is a split between old and young and a big split regionally: this is no kind of coalition for change away from neoliberalism. )

It is also implying way too much power to the EU, as if it were the EU that privatised British industry and services, the EU that pissed oil money against the wall, the EU that largely destroyed British manufacturing, the EU that neglected various regions left depressed by the destruction of industry, and the EU that attacked the British welfare state. It wasn't.
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First of all I have not made my position bullet proof. My entire argument rests on it being impossible to reverse the neo-liberal direction we have been taking inside the EU. If I am wrong about that then everything else is wrong as well. If at some point in the future we are still being dragged into neo-liberal hell while the EU counties head the other way, I'll have a serious amount of humble pie to eat. Assuming that is we actually break significantly from the EU at some point.

Second I made no claim that the EU was responsible for privatisation or any other policy. The European rolling class has happily implemented these policies both as independent counties and collectively through the EU. The significance of the EU is that it locks those policies in place making it impossible to reverse them while retaining membership.

As for it being a fantasy position. You are right that there is not a unified leave vote. But everyone who voted leave did so because they want change. Many of of them may want change that I may disagree with. But it is still a desire for change. And I think many leave voters do want things like, better jobs, better homes and a better NHS. The main point I am trying to make is that 'vote to keep things as they are' is just not an appealing prospect to many people.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Hmmm. You've just made your position bullet-proof - whatever bad shit happens, at least we tried. (And it's also a fantasy position that suggests one coherent idea behind the leave vote that is not there - 60 per cent tory voters voted leave, 65 percent labour voters voted remain; there is a split between old and young and a big split regionally: this is no kind of coalition for change away from neoliberalism. )

It is also implying way too much power to the EU, as if it were the EU that privatised British industry and services, the EU that pissed oil money against the wall, the EU that largely destroyed British manufacturing, the EU that neglected various regions left depressed by the destruction of industry, and the EU that attacked the British welfare state. It wasn't.
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I am disappointed but not surprised that you seem to see only "bad shit" coming from brexit, no possibility of something good emerging. Yes, this has made clear divisions within society and there is atm 'no kind of coalition for change away from neoliberalism': which is why the task for socialists and anarchists, among others, is to work towards exploiting the situation to fight for positive change. It's not going to be handed out on a plate, you know.
 
...it was still 48 billion £s in 2011-2012

Looks like the plan is to make the UK even more of a tax haven and maybe special economic zone than it already is
 
Pickman's model said:
I am disappointed but not surprised that you seem to see only "bad shit" coming from brexit, no possibility of something good emerging. Yes, this has made clear divisions within society and there is atm 'no kind of coalition for change away from neoliberalism': which is why the task for socialists and anarchists, among others, is to work towards exploiting the situation to fight for positive change. It's not going to be handed out on a plate, you know.
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You're right that I'm not optimistic at the moment. This 'race to the bottom' that gets a certain kind of tory very excited certainly feeds into that.

You're also right that you have to fight for positive change. But I'm not much of a believer in 'creative destruction' in this context. 'First making things worse' just puts you even further away from where you want to be. And yes, so far, all I see is bad shit coming from brexit. A steady stream of steaming diarrhoea so far.
 
DotCommunist said:
the EU would deffo have stopped all this.
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I think you misunderstand the situation... the justification from osbourne here is Exit creates disinvestment and is scaring away big business...we need to woo them back or risk recession.

That reason may be true or it may not, but either way what exit creates is an opportunity to exploit by those in power...since its the tories and the ukip right that hold all the cards it is and was always going to be them that exploited this historic moment for their own agenda. Its a chance to reshape the UK, in the image of whoever has power.

Nothing to do with "the EU wouldve stopped this".

BTW just saw a copy of City AM talking about the UK drifting towards a tax haven type economy...
 
emanymton said:
So what the remainers seem to be saying is that there is a nice EU and a nasty EU and by the good judgment of our tory overlords we have only signed up to the nice bits. So we can just ignore Greece, it's not relevant.

As for the OP, politicians talk a lot of shit that never becomes a reality. Especially when trying to court support from their own supporters. There is a long way to go before anything they say becomes a policy idea, let alone actually becoming law.
Click to expand...


Some policies become law very very quickly in these degraded political times, Lord(Fraud) Freud took just 13 weeks(the time it took to compile his report) to decimate Social Security and it all became an Welfare Reform Act not much later.
 
ska invita said:
I do worry we've jumped out of the Eu frying pan in to a US fire, but I do follow the argument that any victories we may win against these forces are worth more out of the EU.

It's a shit situation for sure. What's clear is government will try and deregulate deeper. It's a certainty. Another round of Tories with new enthusiasm are coming..... Hopefully without a labour party chasing their policies ....

But maybe arguments to fight that will be more powerful at the start of this new post-exit wave, as there'll be more attention paid as to what a post eu uk should look like...
Click to expand...

The 'Brittania Unchained' Report will now be looked at in a different light by the Tories, post Brexit.
 
ska invita said:
I think you misunderstand the situation... the justification from osbourne here is Exit creates disinvestment and is scaring away big business...we need to woo them back or risk recession.

That reason may be true or it may not, but either way what exit creates is an opportunity to exploit by those in power...since its the tories and the ukip right that hold all the cards it is and was always going to be them that exploited this historic moment for their own agenda. Its a chance to reshape the UK, in the image of whoever has power.

Nothing to do with "the EU wouldve stopped this".

BTW just saw a copy of City AM talking about the UK drifting towards a tax haven type economy...
Click to expand...
In the same way that they used the perception of a debt crisis as an excuse to get stuck into the welfare state.
 
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