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Israeli seminary attack kills 8; Palestinians rejoice

Nino: "Rachamim's first langauge.": You know your obsession with me is qUITE evident but the obsession with my plethora of languages seems to be one of your most obsessive issues. Should we repeat the list again for posterity's sake? Would you bother to write them down though so I will not have to keep repeating them as I have in at least 6 posts. Nino, Nino, and Nino, when will you learn?

As for Tangent getting me to "modify" my "position," could it POSSIBLY be that she merely wishes to DISCUSS the issues and learn about other perspectives? Not everybody here wishes to convert others. Something to keep in mind.
 
As for Tangent getting me to "modify" my "position," could it POSSIBLY be that she merely wishes to DISCUSS the issues and learn about other perspectives? Not everybody here wishes to convert others. Something to keep in mind.

It is true - I do wish to discuss the issues and learn about other perspectives. I don't necessarily like that you might quote as fact some discredited historian that you didn't cite as the source of your information, but then you've been holding these viewpoints for so long that they are indicative of a certain type of position (centre-right/right, but not extreme right) HOWEVER, If I refuse to engage with you then I am shooting myself in the foot, and missing an opportunity to understand a large part (maybe a 3rd) of the Israeli right and the US right that supports it.

With respect to some of the things that you hold as 'absolute', I think there is always room for a shift, especially if that perspective has been built on false information or a propaganda construct, but this is no different for anyone, regardless of whether they are zionist or antizionist.

I think the same about myself - it was not easy at first, wading through bad-advocacy on both sides to find a way to a common-truth and a foundation for speaking that can reach out to all - it might sound ambitious to some, and I realise that this process will probably take 20-30 years, because it's not a process I can undertake alone - we are talking about two groups of people (actually, more than two groups) who even in those groups are holding deeply divided opinions - and we can only move as fast as our slowest member.

Therefore, TIME is one thing we know we have secured, when working towards solving the many, many problems that are, from a Peoples' perspective, caused by the 19th and early 20th century racism of Europe towards even the most assimilated of immigrants at a time when Empires were attempting to take control of the world's resources. This process of resource control by producers is still very much affecting all ordinary peoples of this world.

I'm not going to forget these in a hurry - British and US slavery, Stalin and Hitler's forced-labour-to-death, Labour-exploitation in war-zones where fear of annihiliation will make workers accept the most appalling of conditions:
For example - the Israeli mother in Sderot who had to take her kids to work because schools were closed due to shelling from Gaza and if she had not turned up for work (workfare) then no pay for her and even sanctions and then her factory is hit. Then for Palestinians - the businesses laid waste and silent because no resources can get in and exports cannot get out. The years of destruction of Palestinian produce in the marketplace - rotting produce at checkpoints for decades, the forced confiscation of their lands by a US-settler-vanguard, and so forth. Both peoples here are just two more peoples who are pawns in multinational struggles for dominance and supported by weak 'states' who aren't representing their peoples as they should.

It seems best to research and source as much information as possible under discussion. There is nothing less than the survival of many many peoples at stake, not just Israeli and Palestinian. Think about it - the entire world seems to have been at constant war since the late 19th Century.

I don't harbour hate for rachamim, although I am often angry, and that has been a part of my own process to learn how to direct my anger about this conflict and transmute it into a useful process. The "lies" which nino_savatte alludes to are not rachamim's lies - they are part of a wider narrative that needs addressing calmly and with some damned good research. I believe it will be better for this forum if, when someone has based their viewpoint on dodgy info, that it is discussed openly, and that we avoid killing the messenger!

It's not enough to mudsling and namecall, and when this happens, it's a sign (to me) that the writer is angry, but doesn't know how to make their anger worthwhile. Besides, this anger only reduces the chance to explore and bust myths. These myths exist on the other side - on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side, and they need to be discussed as much as any other aspect of this conflict, but not, I feel, at the expense of discussing current events.
 
Tangent: "Community leaders.": Theologically speaking, those "leaders" stand on firm ground. Some opposing rabbis CAN argue that without a Sanhedrin in place, it is impossible to mete irrefutable justice but that is a narrow interpreatation that has no theological basis, itr is merely a political compromise and religion does not compromise. Either you follow its strictures or you are an Apikoro, an apostate.

Modern people thiink that we can pick and choose according to our specific and individual needs but Talmud-Torah does not work like that. Many things CAN be interpreted individually but certain things, like Revenge According to Law cannot.

Outside of Eretz Yisroel you have more leeway to adapt it locally but within the nation there is no chance.

Now, on the birght side of things, the Law of Revenge does not apply to family members of an assailant. In fact, that is viewed as a major, major sin. "Sins of the Father."
On the side of utter disgust - we see the family of terrorists having their houses demolished - it is but one of the pretexts for demolition which ICAHD (http://www.ichad.co.uk) have revealed. There are many pretexts used to remove Palestinian families from their homes in occupied territories (incl. E.Jeruasalem), but possibly this thread is not the place to discuss these shocking forced removals outside of the calls by the settler group to demolish the house of the family of the man who committed these murders. Maybe the similiarity of religous jurisprudence between Sharia and Halakah is worth nothing, maybe not.

Then we have the to address the ideas that the Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi, Metzger, comes up with: Basicall, back in January, he was interviewed by a British Jew for The Jewish News (weekly paper), and his idea was that a Palestinian state could be made in Sinai where they should be forcibly transferred, and that all Muslims should renounce their link to Jerusalem! So here he feeds the far-right zionist viewpoint (not shared by all zionist but someting that seems part of US-rightwing zionist discourse) that demand that all Palestinians be sent back to Arabia 'where they belong' (Rachamim himself repeats Peters' myth that these are recent immigrant from 1946 and not 'indigenous' but this book was trashed in both Britian and Israel, although it is still popular in US).

Anyway, "A rabbi without wisdom is no better than a beast." and these rabbi with their inflammatory remarks that are basically having no halachic basis are really doing no-one any favours. There is nowhere written in Talmud or Torah that wisdom or consideration of progress/modernity or compassion be removed from jurisprudence, and if I remember rightly, we have only so much scope to judge another, since G-d is the one who makes the final judgement.

The murderer is executed anyway - there is really no more to happen after this apart from a compensation to be given to those who grieve. Maybe there ought to have been a court case to determine if the anyone including the family aided and abetted the murderer, but we should consider that those who called for vengeance (publicly) were not prevented by the police from trashing the house of the family of the murderer, and even the Chief of Police said publicly that his own force were lying when they said they weren't expecting the attack from those led by Kahane's right-hand man. So reality here is that religious jurisprudence-wise, there is really no firm ground for either to stand on due to mismanaging the situation.

In Britain, it is illegal to send vigilantes after the family of a convicted murderer.

rachamim18 said:
"A 'Palestinian' grandmothers is asking herself when the fighting will stop.": IF only it is so. I personally know alot of "Palestinians" who DO ask that and pray for it daily. I also knopw many more that take the opposite stance. All one need do is watch local media, if they are not able to ever go personally and they will see wild celebrations anytime an Israeli, especially an Israeli-Jew is killed in acts of terror.
It is so - I read about it and had no reason to believe it to be untrue. In many ways, the elders are wiser than the youth. Maybe a joint council is worth beginning.
Many, many times the family of a terrorist, especially dead terrorists are ecstatic that their son, daughter,etc. has died while killing an Israeli-Jew. Children play "Shaeed" like Westerns play tag.
It is a minority, and on the settler-side, we have parents encouraging despicable acts of hatred in their children. Unless this process is addressed in both groups, then there can be no grounds for one to complain of the other,for they mirror each other and are inextricabbly linked.

"Mismatch of histories.": Yes but then there really is only one history, isn't there?
There is one history with differing views of that history. There are differing remembrances, and differing testimonies. Different motives for acting the way they did - not invalid, but part of our shared history.More importantly, it gives each side a chance to understand how the situation came to the situation we face today.

Arabs , for the vast majority, need a dose of reality. To imagine a place you call the Judean Desert was always devoid of Jews is the thinking of of someone who is rife with naivete or someone who needs heavy medication.
I don't know where or what time-period this comes from. I don't know that Palestinians are this unaware - certainly this is not part of the cross-community narrative and I never read anything like this in any of their own peace groups (or Electronic Intifada. for that matter).

It would be interesting to see where it fits to the historical picture and how something promulgated decades ago might today be used to beat today's generations with.
 
Tangent: Let's play a guessing game: "Some discredited historian who you did not attribute as one of your sources Rach...": Obviously Tangent, you are harping on about Joan Peters but hse is neither a hsitorian nor a source of mine and in fact, while I know her name, I do not believe I have ever even read a piece by her. I never allowed myself once I saw that in a pro-Arab site that she had repeated the claim that Gold Mier coined the adage "A nation without a people, for a people without a nation."

That of course was uttered by an English fool, a member of the House of
L-rds in the late 19th Century CE/AD...not Meir who I do believe has been pircked with that ignorant saying over and over.

How then did I guess correctly that you meant Ms. PEters? Well, who else would have been a long ago discredited historian that a person like myself (in your eyes) would have used as a source?

Now Tangent, you are doing exactly what many others here dop. Instead of asking me, you think it will be a neat parlor trick to try and read my mind.

I actually have a huge library here in my NYC flat, in fact part of what I am doing here is boxing this crap up to ship via half container to Mindanao.

I do use many sources, but if I make a direct quote, I have no problem offering credit. When on the other hand I offer data that is listed in many, maybe even dozens of sources, whom to credit? Why credit a person for numbers,etc?
 
Tangent: Whoaaaaaaa! Creepy I tell you. Now I read your last post and you even mention Peters' name. Damn I know how you think. Well there you go.

Anyway, I do not get my info that most "Palestinians" are actually migrants who moved there within the latter half of the Ottoman Era, and most of them in the last 150 years of the Era...from her or any other "book."

I get them from Ottoman, British, UN, and Israeli census reports that bear this out exactly. I also get it from talking to many "Palestinians" when home. One village under myy command district was a village in Galilee that was merely 70 years old. Some years prior to 48 they migrated from Syria en masse and settled there, but have never registered their village and during my tenure their village was about to be torn down.

Then in Gaza I met more than I could count who were actually Egyptian. Remember, until the 1830s, Gaza was predominantly Jewish witrh a continuous presence dating to circa 1000 BCE/BC, only to fall into minority during the Nablus Riot period, and then into extinction in 1929 when it suffered the same fate as my family's hometown, Hebron.

Fact is Tangent, that the Ottoman Empire was structured a whole lot differently than many imagine. One could easily migrate down fron Anatolia into Syria, from Syria down into Egypt, from anywhere into Southern Syria which is what "Palestine" known as.

I have not read Peters but whether or not she claims the moon is made of cheese, most Arabs are not more than 4th generation in what they call "Palestine."

Onto other things...

You say there is no Halachick basis for sending Arabs out of Israel but alas, you are very wrong. It doers in fact say just that but then noone in their right mind would follow that hardline interp[reation. Most would argue for the teaching that stresses that the non-Jew , as long as they are not idolatrous, can live among us but only if they bow to Judiasim's ascendancy (think this is the right English word) over other faiths within the lLand of Israel.

All faiths are respected but Israel , by Halacha, is a thoroughly Jewish land and this is the word of G-D...if you believe in Scripture.

As for compassion and modernity, you must read that somewhere,etc. because it is not true at all. We are taught in both Talmud, to obey the lessons of our elders and that to give in to modernity for conveinence is to take the short and easy way and to sell one's self short spiritually speaking.

We can adapt teachings to our day and age without discarding their cardinal truths.


"On the 'Settler' side we see them encouraging their children to do despicable things.": To date no Jew anywhere has walked into a cafe and detnoated themself. Throwing rocks is terrible, so is spitting but is no match for what al Akhsa TV teaches and to compare the two is to not deal in reality.

"Palestinians unaware of the Jewish history beneath their feet.": You would be amazed...absolutely amazed.
 
Fact is Tangent, that the Ottoman Empire was structured a whole lot differently than many imagine. One could easily migrate down fron Anatolia into Syria, from Syria down into Egypt, from anywhere into Southern Syria which is what "Palestine" known as.

This is so dishonest and it is another attempt to 'prove' that those who lived on the land prior to the Ashkenazim mass immigration, weren't entitled to live there.

You may not like it, but Palestine existed within the Ottoman Empire; the region was called Palestine and was referred to as such
 
This is so dishonest and it is another attempt to 'prove' that those who lived on the land prior to the Ashkenazim mass immigration, weren't entitled to live there.

You may not like it, but Palestine existed within the Ottoman Empire; the region was called Palestine and was referred to as such

Yes. It's of no relevance how many generation a resident had lived before being driven out by conflict - they have rights - human rights, and their property cannot legally be given in compensation for Jewish refugees from any other lands.
 
Nino: Time for a history lesson. Wish I could say that I did not enjoy schooling you but ahhh, such precious joys we fools allow ourselves.

I will not bore you up until the tim of the Otto,anm takeover because even the most casual observer od the Mid-East is aware that there has never been a nation called "Palestine" and that it was the conquering Romans who attachhed that bame to the region as thumbing if you will after destroying m9re than 900 Jewish villages in whay is now Juah and Samaria.

So, when the Ottomans finally took control of the region in the early 1500s CE/AD they renaed the bulk of the land you call "Palestine" into the VILAYET (another term to study, this one Turkish) of Damascus (hence the connection with Arab inhabitants to the fictitious land of "Southern Syria,"

The villayet was further divided into 3 SANJAKS (another fun term for those lonely nights on the Moors Sir Nino).

I) Was the Sanjak of Beirut, and included land from Jaffa north to Jericho and Jordan.


II)Sanjak of Jaffa included the Special District of Jerusalem. Its southern border was never clearly demarcated but it clearly was considered to have ended on the southern half of the Sinai Peninsular.

III) The final and third Sanjak was a Sanjak not really worth our time discussing here as it was connected to the Vilayet of Cairo

So you see Nino, the believe that the local Arabs had any kind if national sense is purely ficticious,

Something I love ruminating on though was Napoleon's admiration of the Jewish People and admiring our tenacity. Were you aware that in 1799 for an alol too brief interlude , 4 months in 1799, he declared that part of the Ottoman Empire to be a Jewish Land? Hmmmm.....


You love negating the rights of Ashkenazim Jews simply based on their birthplace, or the birthplace of their parents and their parents birthplace. While studying those 2 Turkish words you might also wish to study the history of the Ashkenazim Jews and their travels around the planet.

As I always find myself telling you...over....over....and...over the Ashekanzim happen to be the very same Jews as the Mizrachim, Sephardim, Caucasian, Bukhari, Tam, Yemeni, and any other Jewish group.

While you in your endearing naivete tend to automatically associate actual anthropological terms with eugenic nonsense and other pseudo-scientifical nonsense I really have to let you know that ALL Jews share a very close genetic connection, one that allows them to claim a very common kinship.

Ashkenazim migrated to Europea by one of two differeht ewwy
 
Nino:"The region was known as 'Palestine' and called as much.": Uh, no it was certainly not. Ther was a timein the early 19th Century of the CE/AD where some DID use the term but not to define a specific area with any kind of parameters and in the end it fell out of use because it made no sense. Ottomans themselves never used the term as non-sensical.

When the Sublime Porte referred to the region, and discussed the vicinity of al Quds he DID mention "al Filastin" but that was rare indeed and he almost always included al Quds within the hte Vilayet of Jaffa, as mentioned in my other post. PLEASE, you MIGHT really learn a thing or two here. Good luck.
 
Tangent: You miss a vital piece of information when dicussing people being vien land that belonged to others who klived there how many generations (the number not mattering in your view).

First, let me steal your home and everything in it and see how well you think.

Secondly, you miss a vital piece of information (Damn! ALOT of missin' going'; on, sounds like a Blues song, doesn't it!?). In the mnid 19th Centuiry the Ottomans began t institute a more Western style, what they termed "modern," system of land ownership. As one might imaginbe they might see that this would require actual land deeds.

As I have said no less than 5 times in this very forum, just claiming to have lived in a stone hut for 4 generations is not going to cut it in a modern nation. Fact is, even there most of those families were sharecropping Turkish land that had been sold right from under them.

Sad? Absolutely? Jewish problem? Never. Take it up with the UN! WAIT!!!!!!!! It has already been done and in the 49 Mediation when 10 million US dollars was agreed upon as the first in an incremental payout to the so called "Palestinian Refugees." This by the way was the same agreement that called for the acceptance, IMMEDIATELY of 100,0000 "Palestinian Refugees."


So...A family with no deed, with only 3, 4, or even 9 generations on a piece of rocky half arable land is told to produce a deed or the land is not yours....but rather belongs to the Ottoman family up in Anatolia who does have the legal deed...or the high class "Palestinian " Family who would never consider themselves as "Palestinians" and live either in Cairo or Damascus.



What to do?

Many, many,many things that Westerners never stop to even consider.
 
Nino: Time for a history lesson. Wish I could say that I did not enjoy schooling you but ahhh, such precious joys we fools allow ourselves.

I will not bore you up until the tim of the Otto,anm takeover because even the most casual observer od the Mid-East is aware that there has never been a nation called "Palestine" and that it was the conquering Romans who attachhed that bame to the region as thumbing if you will after destroying m9re than 900 Jewish villages in whay is now Juah and Samaria.

So, when the Ottomans finally took control of the region in the early 1500s CE/AD they renaed the bulk of the land you call "Palestine" into the VILAYET (another term to study, this one Turkish) of Damascus (hence the connection with Arab inhabitants to the fictitious land of "Southern Syria,"

The villayet was further divided into 3 SANJAKS (another fun term for those lonely nights on the Moors Sir Nino).

I) Was the Sanjak of Beirut, and included land from Jaffa north to Jericho and Jordan.


II)Sanjak of Jaffa included the Special District of Jerusalem. Its southern border was never clearly demarcated but it clearly was considered to have ended on the southern half of the Sinai Peninsular.

III) The final and third Sanjak was a Sanjak not really worth our time discussing here as it was connected to the Vilayet of Cairo

So you see Nino, the believe that the local Arabs had any kind if national sense is purely ficticious,

Something I love ruminating on though was Napoleon's admiration of the Jewish People and admiring our tenacity. Were you aware that in 1799 for an alol too brief interlude , 4 months in 1799, he declared that part of the Ottoman Empire to be a Jewish Land? Hmmmm.....


You love negating the rights of Ashkenazim Jews simply based on their birthplace, or the birthplace of their parents and their parents birthplace. While studying those 2 Turkish words you might also wish to study the history of the Ashkenazim Jews and their travels around the planet.

As I always find myself telling you...over....over....and...over the Ashekanzim happen to be the very same Jews as the Mizrachim, Sephardim, Caucasian, Bukhari, Tam, Yemeni, and any other Jewish group.

While you in your endearing naivete tend to automatically associate actual anthropological terms with eugenic nonsense and other pseudo-scientifical nonsense I really have to let you know that ALL Jews share a very close genetic connection, one that allows them to claim a very common kinship.

Ashkenazim migrated to Europea by one of two differeht ewwy

434 words of mindless drivel. Don't you ever get tired of your lies? Another product of an impotent mind.

The Ashkenazim didn't regard the Mizrahim or the Baghdadis as equals. Don't hand me that bullshit.

I'm only surprised that you haven't repeated your "cranial dimensions" canard.

434 words...what a waste.
 
Nino:"The region was known as 'Palestine' and called as much.": Uh, no it was certainly not. Ther was a timein the early 19th Century of the CE/AD where some DID use the term but not to define a specific area with any kind of parameters and in the end it fell out of use because it made no sense. Ottomans themselves never used the term as non-sensical.

When the Sublime Porte referred to the region, and discussed the vicinity of al Quds he DID mention "al Filastin" but that was rare indeed and he almost always included al Quds within the hte Vilayet of Jaffa, as mentioned in my other post. PLEASE, you MIGHT really learn a thing or two here. Good luck.

123 words to add to the unnecessary 434 that you typed earlier.
 
Wow! Little Weeno is counting again. things slow at the "Home?"

Actually Weeno, there was alot of Classisim based upon education, as in those Jews having Western Educations versus those with a lack of one, i.e. just about all Sephardim ,etc. Even among the Ashkenazim, you had class differences. Jews from Galitzia, the Pale, were at the bottom of the Ashkenazim pile, especially those who sprang from the Polish vector. This began disappearing with the first war and by 73 was all gone .


Today the bias is against those from recently from Russia since they refuse to learn Hebrew, according to their detractors, and so forth. The thing is, their demographic is so huge as to completely change the face of Israel sosocially things will be interesting in the coming decade, peace or no peace.

Your mistake is that you seem to think it was some kind of colour bar, like a paperbag test or something and it certainly was not.

And as I have said other times, other groups had their biases as well. When my Sephardic-Mizrachi dad married my Ashkenazi mom (who did have Sepohardic roots to be honest), his family disowned him for about 4 years. Sephardim consider themselves to be the elite of Jewry, or did . Nowadays there are so many marriages between all Jewish groups that it really makes no sense to be biased in any way.

The faith becomes more codified and more homogenous, and these differences ironed out means that there is really nothing to aruge about for the elders.
 
Another tedious essay. 259 words here and none of them actually manage to engage with my point. Another side-step, another wriggle.
 
Zzzzzz...crap on, crap on. If you think that by replying to our posts with an excess of 1,000 words is going to impress us, think again. Wading through them I see the same themes over and over again: smears, lies, altered timelines and historical revisionism.
 
Query to Mods: without naming any names, surely posters who insist on repeatedly bumping six-week old threads for the sole purpose of insulting others should be banned? But I see nothing about this in the FAQ. Should I report such posts?
 
Nino:"The region was known as 'Palestine' and called as much.": Uh, no it was certainly not. Ther was a timein the early 19th Century of the CE/AD where some DID use the term but not to define a specific area with any kind of parameters and in the end it fell out of use because it made no sense. Ottomans themselves never used the term as non-sensical.

When the Sublime Porte referred to the region, and discussed the vicinity of al Quds he DID mention "al Filastin" but that was rare indeed and he almost always included al Quds within the hte Vilayet of Jaffa, as mentioned in my other post. PLEASE, you MIGHT really learn a thing or two here. Good luck.

This is another example of your tendency towards historical revisionism.
 
Query to Mods: without naming any names, surely posters who insist on repeatedly bumping six-week old threads for the sole purpose of insulting others should be banned? But I see nothing about this in the FAQ. Should I report such posts?

Query to Mods: without naming names, surely posters who aggressively follow other posters around with their infantile trolling for the sole purpose of feeding their twisted egos should be banned?
 

You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.
 
You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.

Five minutes later:

Grandma Death said:
Anyone else had these? I've had a crippling migraine for nearly 36 hours-its just starting to ease off. I've read some stuff on the net about how seratonin imbalances can cause migraines. Its only my second ever migraine-and both followed a weekend on pills (1st time) and Crystals (2nd time).

Go to bed son. That's the best advice you'll hear all day.
 
Five minutes later:



Go to bed son. That's the best advice you'll hear all day.

You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.
 
Nino: "Tendency towards Historical Revisonism.": Nino please humor me and explain how I am a revisonist.

IT is very, very simple and for brevity's sake I willl make it especially so:

What time frame saw the first Jewish settlment of the lands now alternatively called Israel and "Palestine?" The first of the gradual waves, that happened in two phases, began roughly 4500 years ago, with the People now know as Jews emanating from Mespotamia, more sepcifically between the Tigres and Euphrates rivers in what is today Iraq, made their way to the southwest as the marched with their grazing flocks and herds. Semi-nomadic traditionally, it wass a natural migration. It was on these gradual migrations that Ethical Monotheism was born to the world so that by the time we first settled the land our faith had well defined our Peoplehood far beyond our traditional clan relationships.

By 2800 years ago we had assimilated or otherwise cast off any remaning inhabitants who saw us first arrive (all were Proto-Greeks of the Mycaenean Culture commonly found on Crete. They were not Semites, and certainly were not Arabs.

In fact, Arabs did not even exist, as far history is concerned until about 7000 BCE/BC when they first appear as vanquished clients of the Assyrian Army on list detailing the battle and tribute collected.

So, by the time the very first Arab pops into history we Jews have been in the land in question forroughly 1700 years. Hmmmm.

The name "Palestine" is due to Roman colonisers who sought to conquer us although they never really did. Pompey DID manage to take Ma'sah'dah in 73 CE/AD but never managed to deaden my People's spririt nor their longing for their very ancient homeland.

To put this in perspective, we were there as Egyptians began copping Pyramid techniques off of the Nubians. We were there as empires developed out of paltry robber bands, grew immense in power and wealth and then disappered from history with nary a trace.

Take for example the Arab and Islamic Conquest of my homeland that leaves us in our current dissenting viewpoints.

Muhammed dies in 632 CE/AD and has already begun utilising Outer Jihad as a means to an end. War immediately left Arabia and began branching out in different directions to conqueor anything and everything that was un-Islamic.

At first al Ummah, the community, as Muhammed's early followers called themselves believed that a quorum of Muslim elders should vote in democratic fashion as to the person who would now lead al Ummah, a position to be known as al Khalifa (the Caliph). Unlike a Pope, or Chief Rabbi, he would be religious AND civil ruler.

The 4th Calipha, 'Umar I (AKA Omar I) is the one who conquered what is alterantively known as Israel and "Palestine" along with alot of here to fore non-Arab and certainly non-Islamic nations.

Regressing just a bit, and trying to be as brief as possible, after the Romans strode into Jeruslalem, under the Roman General Pompeii, he entered the 2nd Temple, a sacrilege in of itself and then proceeded to murder the competitor for the Jewish Throne (Hasmonean Dynasty, founded by the famed Macabii Clan of Judean Hill Country who fought Syrian descendants of the Alexandrian Generals - in this case Seleucid, hence their People's name, "Seleucids") .

Two branches of the family were contending for the throne and is almost always the case with weak rulkership, both members curried Roman favour in restoring what they felt was their rightful inheritance. Rome unconcerned with right or wrong but with military and geopolitical objectives (as any smart tactician should be) cast his lot in with the family member named Hyrcanus II (born circa: 103 BCE/BC, died 30 BCE/BC) who actually had his men open the Main City Gates of Jerusalem while it was in the midst of the Roman Siege Machine.

General Pompeii strided forcefully threw narrow cobblestoned lanes that were beginning to deepen in torrernts of blood as the Legionariies moved forcefully through the ancient city.

Arriving at Mt. Moriah, the site on which the Jewish Temple sits, and where the other faction led by Aristobulus II was well ensconced, Popmeii,et all entered all the gates and made their way into the Inner Sactuary, reportedly killing anyone who even came within their site, as they sought out Aristobulus II, who was within the Sanctuary of Sactuaries where Jews believe that G-D, on one day a year (Yom Kipoor, The Day of Atonement) G-D makes a brief judgementary appearance in the guise of a pillar of someless fire that descende from the Heavens, and ascends almost as quickly. Its appearance signifies another year of existend for the Jewish World.

Pompeii and his henchmen entered this moist holy place and slew Aristobulus in a case of almost unimaginable sacrilege. He ended up stripping that First Temple, AKA Solomons Temple (in Ennglish) but left it standing has he razed the entire city of Jerusalem.


Hyrcanus became the High Priest but in a case of poetic justice this Jew who sougght to slay his kinsman over the seat of power was then denied this power...and since they were the only 2 contenders, the Hasmonean Dynasty effectively came to an end.

To rule the land, Popeii picked a a convert to the Jrewish faith, Antipater II (died in 43 BCE/BC, onme day after his hero Julius Gaius Ceaser, the leader of rome, murdered on the Ides of March, in the Senate, for the blaphemy of declarubg himself a living G-D.

After Antipater II's demie, his son Herod I, or as he more commonly known, "Herod the Great" assumed the throne, and ruled from 37 to 4 BCE/BC. Seeking to sement his family's claim to the throne despite a total lack of connection with the Davidic like given his roots in Nabatea and Idumea, he married politically, to Mariamne HaHasmonean (died in 29 BCE/BC, by orders of her husband but that is not having to do with my outline of the regional geopolitical dynamic.

Their two oldest sons were aslos murdered by Herod I (Alexander and Aristobulus who both were murdered in 7 BCE, the latter named after his uncle , murder by his fater, in the Holy of the Holies).

Herod I rebuilt the Jewish Temple and while historians have much debate on the subject contemporos accounts offer a picture of unmitigated joy, and why not? Yes, a convert who had no right to sit on the throne was there, and he built this, but the edifice was grand and it was fully restored which in manys minds offered hope that their former glory would be restored as well.

War broke out over the corrupt and inept, not ot mention illegal monarchy of the Herodian Dynasty and its Roman overl-rds.

I think most of the pursuant facts would bore people wo I will speed it up by sayting, in March of 70 Ce/AD 4 Roman Legions and Auxiliaries totalling about 80,000 men laid seige to Jerusalem, by now in full rebellion.By May, 2 and half months later the city's walls had been breached the bloodletting had begun...again.

Still, the whole city had not fallen. The Fortress of Antonia which adjoined the Temple Mount held out but had fallen by mid-July.In late August, a date on our calendar known as the 9th of Av, Romans finally took the Temple Mount (coincidently the very same date that Babylon had taken and destroyed Solomon's Temple).

The operation was under ultimate control of Vespasian, later to become Emperor, and to adopt the turncoat Josephus, but the Siege of Jerusalem was under control of his son Titus as the father was consumed with a hasty call back to Rome to deal with the ill Nero's suicide and and Empire now without an Emperor.

It took a month of Mop Up Ops for Titus to defeat all Jewish rebels hidden in the crevices of the city, afterwhich he jously entred out Temple and sacked its treasures (but not all ) and razed it to the ground, plowed it under in salt, and then forbade a single Jew from enterting Jerusalem under pain of death.110,000 Jews sied in Titus' great Siege of Jeruelam.97,000 more were sold into slavery.

This event left the last pocket of resistance high up in the hills , at a former Herodian Summer Palace named "Ma'sa'dah." Led by a man named Eliezer Ben Yair, almost 1000 Zealot and Sicarii, along with thier familes, slaves, and supplies ensconsced themsleves in the palace and had enough food tuff and medicine to outlast a siege lasting more than a decade.

Last they did until one day, in 73 CE/AD Ben Yair knew that there was not much time before the latest siege machine would breech their defences and they would be out of options. Knowing that the best that awaited them would be crucifixtion, and that their women folk would be made whores and young sons slaves, or also whores being that Rome engaged in this as a pregular practice. Yai made a short speech if we are to believe Josephus and conviced his followers quite eloquently that the time was near when they should deny that final victory to Rome and take their own lives, as well as the lives of their children.

All supplies were to be burned save for foodstuffs because Ben Yair wanted the Romans to realise it was not because of the siege, but their rejection of the Roman System.

That day in 73 marks the end of Jewish sovereignity for the most part (only very scattered and ineffectual movements followed after that).

In Titus' push to Jerusalem, and the back and forth between that city and Ma'sah'dah" more than 900 Jewish villages in just the Judean portion of the so called "West Bank" were erased from history with every single Jew found taken as war booty and sold into slavery.



PT II TO FOLLOW
 
You're really taken by me aren't you phil? Its ok....I know you have some deep seated issues going on in that mind of yours-but really...I'm not interested in feeding your ego-go find someone else to bother there's a good lad. Either that or start one of your lesbo threads-you obviously get a real kick from them.

Granny, it's not my fault that you've been up chewing the carpet for 36 hours. Why you would come on here in that condition is a mystery to me, but you must admit that your aggression, paranoia and confusion are not unrelated to your recent activities. Why not come down and try again later eh?
 
Nino PT II...


Eventually the Romans began to loose footing from the Persians, the other World Super Power of the era as well as having the Eastern Half of the Roman Empire begin to flunder, and Persians were able, after several comings and goings of much smaller and inconsequential groups to take control of the land, once more.

One of the first things the pagan Persians (Zoroaster's teachings having faded from the aristocracy,etc. long ago) defiled the Byzantine Church atop Moriah, razed it to the ground and made the entire Mount a municpal garbage dump.

It was in this horrid state that Khalifa 'Umar found it as rode into Jerusalem in 632/633 CE/AD with the shock forces of the Islamic Conquering Army. His mind, as both spirtual leader for this faith in its infancy, as well as the civil and military leader of this vast empire found his mind obviously consumed by questions such as pereminence and originality.

Perhaps he was thinking thoughts like these as climbed those long steps up Moriah (steps are still there) and when he saw the damage wrought by pagan Persians. refuse was strewn everywhere imaginable. Standing there, perplexed, he asked a courtier, "What is the most beautiful edifice you can see, standing right here?"

The younger man answered that it was the Church of the Holy Sephulcre. 'Umar reportedly said that he was going to construct a building to make any other in Jerusalem oale.

He also began leaning on his mullahs as to the location of the "Farthest Place." The Farthest Place is an allegorical location attached to the Night Flight. In Islamic theology, when Muhammed died he climbed aboard a winged horse (very much like a mythological creation like the Griffin). His horse flew him, after he died and landed in the Farthest Place. From there he and his steed ascended into Paradise where he saw all the prophets sitting at the knee of Allah. this offered the Islamic faith a real connection to this city so important to the much older two monothesitc faiths.

The first mosque built was the Mosque of 'Umar, followed by al Akhsa (which is Classical Arabic for the "Farthest Place". LAstly, he also sought to copnvince both Jew and Christain to convert now that it was clearly evident (at least in his mind) that all 3 major monotheitic faiths are separated by very minor differences. Not suprisingly, he did not get too many takes. cheered up though because he would have pehnomenol success with other forays. Egypt virtually abandoned Coptic Christianity and converted en masse (Copts rremain a demograsphic but so ,so, so tiny in comparison to their much earlier numbers).


Anyway, a history lesson personally ofr oyu Nino. Hope you enjoy it. Bet you will offer me a one line insult but how about this: Try something extremely novel and poke holes in my facts. Would that not be more exciting?
 
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