Israeli seminary attack kills 8; Palestinians rejoice

[nino_savatte]

Just try and get your facts straight.

LOL!!!! You lecture me? And this from an inveterate liar too.

 

[Grandma Death]

Nino: "Liar": OK, show us when.

Making three unsubstantiated claims over 18 months and never providing the evidence to back them up.

Hiding behind a non existent ad hom to deflect from providing that evidence.

 

[rachamim18]

Back Nino, and yes, even a person who throws strones from cyber anonymity can take advice.

 

[tangentlama]

Making three unsubstantiated claims over 18 months and never providing the evidence to back them up.

Hiding behind a non existent ad hom to deflect from providing that evidence.

Let it go. Do you truly believe that your own personal conflict is more important that the mass conflict we are discussing in the ME forum?

We are discussing something else entirely now.

March 13, 2008 by Gershom Gorenberg
The student who called me told me that he saw the poster in his yeshivah. At the top it says, in Hebrew, “The Arab enemy is within Jerusalem!” Next Sunday, it says, at the end of the week of mourning for the students killed in the attack at Merkaz Harav, “We will get up and act” by marching to the house of the terrorist in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Jabel Mukaber and demolishing it.

The particular phrase for “to act” - la’asot ma’aseh - is one consistently used by the far right for privatizing violence: The state has refrained from punishing Arabs qua Arabs, as a group, a faceless mass, so let us do it. The words carry a hint, a lynch mob murmur, of ma’aseh Pinhas - an allusion to the original angry young man, the first fanatic, Pinhas, in the book of Numbers. At the bottom of the poster are words from the Book of Esther, “To the contrary, the Jews dominated those who hated them.”

Esther is read on the holiday of Purim, which falls a few days after the planned march. The poster is a call to celebrate the holiday early with a march of angry young men into an Arab neighborhood - with a pogrom. To emulate the Jews who defended themselves from hate-enraged mobs in ancient Persia, Jews will become a hate-enraged mob in the sacred city.

It would be simplest for me to say that this is a modern aberration, a twisting of Judaism with no precedent. That’s half-wrong, though: It is indeed a grotesque distortion of Judaism, but it has historical roots.

As historian Elliot Horowitz has written in his pioneering work Reckless Rites: Purim and the Legacy of Jewish Violence, Purim has a long history as the holiday of despising Gentiles. The villain of the holiday, Haman, is described as a descendant of Agag, king of the tribe of Amalek, which embodied hatred for its own sake. In medieval Jewish tradition Amalek was equated with Christianity. For centuries, mocking Christianity was part of celebrating Purim.

(Horowitz, I should note, is an Orthodox Jew who teaches at Bar-Ilan University. He once explained to me that researching Jewish history without fear of what he would find expressed his Zionism: “Zionism mean being ‘a free people in our land’” — free to search for the truth, rather than writing history as a defense brief).

In recent years in Israel, the radical right has recast Arabs as the mythical enemy Amalek. But now Jews have guns, and real violence can replace symbolism. The massacre at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron 14 years ago took place on Purim. This was not coincidence.

So a purely academic telling of the Jewish past would say that Judaism, like every religion, has its potential for sanctified violence. Sacred texts can be read every which way. Judaism can produce an Abraham Joshua Heschel, marching arm and arm with Martin Luther King to Selma, saying afterward that “our legs were praying.” And it can produce Meir Kahane, a frothing racist who cited scripture and inspired the murderer of Hebron.

But to continue what Haim has written, there’s more to history than fact. There’s also the moral choice of what narrative to tell. Telling the bare facts alone can lead to moral relativism: Judaism has all these possibilities, all these traditions, and different Jews emphasize different ones.

To which one must answer: Some options for interpreting tradition are right and some are wrong. Some ways of learning from history contain truth, and some are lies. Heschel spoke for Torah. Kahane spoke the photo negative of Judaism, black turned white, white turned black. When Jews are too meek to insist that every human being is created in God’s image, then humility becomes cowardice, and

We have turned morality into something relative, a matter of taste. “Everyone has their own opinion” has become a common slogan, even if the opinion under discussion is clearly immoral, even when people advocate racism and violence, presenting them as belonging to the Torah. We have erased the commandment surely rebuke your fellow and say instead let each man do what is right in his own eyes.

That’s from an essay (Hebrew original here) that my son Yehonatan published two months ago. (There is no joy like learning Torah from one’s children.)

Elliot Horowitz would agree that the historical precedent of Purim violence is something to overcome. This morning he sent me a short riff on the subject, which I hope will be up soon on the Net. (Update: The link is here.) He quoted the dean of Merkaz Harav, who made the dangerously inflammatory statement that “the murderers are the Amalek of our day.” If there is any metaphorical sense in which that’s true, Horowitz says, then the Jewish murderer of Hebron was also Amalek.

Which means that his example is the negation of Torah. And a march of vengeance to Jebal Mukaber is a desecration of all that is holy.

http://southjerusalem.com/2008/03/13/hatred-or-judaism-told-backwards/

 

[nino_savatte]

Back Nino, and yes, even a person who throws strones from cyber anonymity can take advice.

Doctor, heal thyself.

 

[tangentlama]

Doctor, heal thyself.

See that he rejected that extremism and had little choice to be involved when he was younger - Kahanists targetted poor, working class families in Brooklyn and took their kids away to be indoctrinated. Rachamim will tell you his story if you ask him. When he grew up, he rejected their doctrine. His story is fascinating and frightening but if he deigns to tell it, it will help many of you to understand the situation with the religious ultranationalists much better. Rachamim doesn't hold any of those Kahanist values any longer and seems to despise the religious right-wing ultranationalists on BOTH SIDES - the extremist Jewish settler groups and the extremist Islamist groups (e.g. Gush Emunim bloc and the extremists in the Hamas who BOTH hold that the entire land to be either JEWISH or MUSLIM). I see him put forward some old propagandas, but they are secular zionist and were swallowed by both left and right in Israel as an older national narrative. I know some minority of the Hamas (Mayors, some of it's MPs) are focused on the two state solution and building up the destroyed Palestinian economy rather than this extreme and archaic viewpoint that the land can only be Islamic for ever more. Land cannot technically be Islamic or Jewish or anything-ish because land cannot follow rites and religious ideologies, so really I think that even in theological law, those claims can be thrown out of 'court' on both sides.

 

[nino_savatte]

See that he rejected that extremism and had little choice to be involved when he was younger - Kahanists targetted poor, working class families in Brooklyn and took their kids away to be indoctrinated. Rachamim will tell you his story if you ask him. When he grew up, he rejected their doctrine. His story is fascinating and frightening but if he deigns to tell it, it will help many of you to understand the situation with the religious ultranationalists much better.

I think I understand the religious extremist mindset fairly well, thanks. What I am more concerned about is his tendency towards dissembling and making spurious accusations in order to avoid points that are put to him.

He doesn't seem to have shaken off his Kahanist past with any degree of success either.

 

[tangentlama]

He doesn't seem to have shaken off his Kahanist past with any degree of success either.

I disagree with you - he has shaken that off remarkably well, considering.
I do not mistake his type of patriotism for extreme religious ultranationalism.

 

[nino_savatte]

I disagree with you - he has shaken that off remarkably well, considering.
I do not mistake his type of patriotism for extreme religious ultranationalism.

We're going to have to agree to disagree in that case. I think it's still there tbh. It may be diluted but it's still there.

 

[frogwoman]

i thought there weren't any palestinians, if they dont exist, how can they celebrate?

 

[tangentlama]

The 'no such thing as Palestinians' is an old propaganda and based on a lack of administrative control, rather than social or national identity, however, it is undeniable that Palestinians exist, and that their own national aspirations are as much a reality as those of Israeli national aspirations Both peoples have rights to self-determinism, but ethically and morally, although these cannot be at the expense of the other, there are groups within these national groups that would deny the other national group their self-determinism and social/national identity.

 

[frogwoman]

The 'no such thing as Palestinians' is an old propaganda and based on a lack of administrative control, rather than social or national identity, however, it is undeniable that Palestinians exist, and that their own national aspirations are as much a reality as those of Israeli national aspirations Both peoples have rights to self-determinism, but ethnically and morally, although these cannot be at the expense of the other, there are groups within these national groups that would deny the other national group their self-determinism and social/national identity.

I know I was joking...i agree with everything in your post.

 

[tangentlama]

We're going to have to agree to disagree in that case. I think it's still there tbh. It may be diluted but it's still there.

Looks like old-fashioned zionist dogma to me.

I get spammed by a Kahanist who calls me a Kapo, and who describes Arabs to me as Amalek and who calls me a traitor regularly, which Rachamim has never done, not openly, nor privately.

I think we might accurately say that Rachamim has not embraced the progessive zionism of the refuseniks or the old Labour Zionist peaceniks, but to call him a Kahanist still would be incorrect. You would not be able to talk to Rachamim if he truly were a Kahanist - he would see 'Arabs' as 'the enemy' if he were a Kahanist or a right-winger like the rabid Avigdor Lieberman, and he doesn't use their terminologies in public discourse.

I'm not for pushing away dialogue with Rachamim under any circumstance.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: Theologically speaking, both Jew and Muslim within their respective fiaths DO have a do or die claim on the land so it is allowed. From our perspective the land is promised to us and guarantted by HASHEM and our bones nourisah the soil for how many years? 2500 years before Muhammed marries Aisha? So it is pretty obvious why their is a brouhaha.

On the Islamic saide, the concept known as "Waqf" which holds that any land even ruled for a second by a Muslim must then forever remain such...not to mention Khalifa Omar having made Jerusalem the 3rd holiest city of their faith to ususrp my people's claim and Christain prememinence.

Thank you for the kind words. Let me sehd a little more light. I do believe firmly in a Greenline delineated 2 State Solution and am a founding member of the ruling party. I never hated Arabs even as a Kahanist although I did agree in voluntary seapration of both groups. Big difference from the Rebbe's mindset, and most of the brothers.

I still hold right of center views because I know the history, not the propaganda. Unlike most I have walked the Arab villages where "atrocities" happened. I speak the language (my first language) and am more Arab probably than Jewish in terms of culturisms and habits. I post because I first thought it would be a positive thing to provide an unheard view here but continue because I find myself amazed at the hatred I see.

 

[tangentlama]

Great. Kahane's right hand man, Baruch Marzel, up to his usual tricks.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/964769.html

 

[Grandma Death]

Let it go. Do you truly believe that your own personal conflict is more important that the mass conflict we are discussing in the ME forum?

Please don't flatter the lair. There's nothing 'personal' in the slightest about this. Its about highlighting academically bankrupt & dishonest posters like Rach. If you think its fine to post whatever lies you like and never be challenged then you need to find another forum-or put me on ignore.

 

[rachamim18]

Actually Tangent, there are posters up in S'derot as well as audio tapes, of which I have one, tht call for Jewish Lw to be exacted on the family of the killer. Sadly, the Chief Rabbi of S'derot is calling for the execution of the killer's siblings, he wants them "hung from trees."

Stuff like that really bothers me. Revenge should not be exacted from innocent peoiple, even if they share the same DNA as that monster. Our traditional methods are much better. To kill a little girl for example, as this Rabbi is suggesting is disgusting.

Sadly there is alot of anger and afeeling of impotence especially in S;derot so that we might see it happen.

There are MKs ccalling for the incarceration and trial of the rabbi under the Hate Laws but we will have to see. Hopefully nobody will do anything in the interim.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not for pushing away dialogue with Rachamim under any circumstance.

So you seriously believe that you can engage in serious, honest and open dialogue with him? Come off it, he spouts racist nonsense and repeats the same lies about DNA that I've heard come from the mouths of social Darwinists to justify their hatred of anyone who isn't white.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: I would imagine you have enough on your own plate to worry about what others are doing. hurry, the nanny is coming!

 

[nino_savatte]

You make less sense each time you post, rach. Your latest reply is more than exemplary of this.

 

[rachamim18]

Back on Ignore, shame though.

 

[Spion]

Sadly there is alot of anger and afeeling of impotence especially in S;derot so that we might see it happen.

Sderot - Built on the ruins of Burayr, Sumsum and Najd, which were cleansed of Palestinians in May 1948. I imagine there's a fair bit of anger on the part of the descendants of those expelled. The residents of Sderot could do with knowing thier history.

Here's Morris's summation of what happened there . . .

"Burayr, northeast of Gaza was taken on 12-13 May. Its inhabitants fled to Gaza. The 9th Battalion troops killed a large number of villagers, apparently executing large dozens of army age males. They appear also to have raped and murdered a teenage girl. The same day the inhabitants of neighbouring Sumsum and Najd , to the west, were driven out. In Sumsum the occupying troops found only a handful of old people. They blew up five houses and warned that if the village’s weapons were not handed over the following day, they would blow up the rest. But inhabitants repeatedly returned to the village, either to resettle or to cultivate crops. At the end of May, a Negev Brigade unit, with orders to expel ‘the Arabs from Sumsum and Burayr and burn their granaries and fields’, swept through the villages, encountering resistance in Sumsum, and killed ‘5’ (or, according to another report, ‘20’) and blew up granaries and a well." (Giv’ati, Desert and Fire, p45-47; and Rami Rosen, ‘Col. G speaks out’ Haaretz, 16 Sep 1994; ‘Ephraim’ to Sarig ‘Summary for 14.5.48’, IDFA 922\75\\1220; and HGS\Operations Logbook, entry for 14 May 1948, IDFA 922\75\\1176; ‘Yisrael’ ‘Report of the search through Burayr and Sumsum’, 2 June 1948 IDFA 2090\50\\10; unsigned, ‘Daily report for 31.5.48’, IDFA 922\75\\1220; and HGS Logbook, entry for 1 June 1948, IDFA 922\75\\1176)

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: Your continuous milking of Morris is interesting in that I wonder if you even bother researching any other source siunce you have been relying on it on an almost 100% basis for as long as I can remember. Even when you quote garbage by Nachmani (again, note ther spelling) you do so via the prism of Morris' tortured and conflicted mind.

As for anything being built atop ruins, ANYTHING in Gaza, "WB," or Israel itself was built atop Jewish ruins. In just the lower Judean sector of Judea-Samaria held more than 900 Jewish villages that were exterminated and razed by conquering Romans.

Ergo, showing how something was built atop ruins of Arabs who for the vast majority have no more than 150 years on the land is sort of a sad joke.

Do you find it even a tad bit interesting how only Morris makes use of those supposed Haganah logbooks? Does it bother you that Morris now says he hs done so in order to show WHY it should have happened and says the future might warrant such actions? Morris is a joke and your refusal to look towards corroborating saources, if any non-partisan sources even exist is as telling as it is troubling.

 

[Spion]

I know you don't read English very well, but Morris is not important here. It is the sources he cites that are. If Morris hd cited them incorrectly you'd be able to point to someone published saying that, but you haven't. So shut up about Morris and try dealing with the eyewitness reports of Zionists which demonstrate ethnic cleansing

 

[rachamim18]

Spion: Thanks for your understanding and sympathy but I feel my English reading skills are at least average and quite possibly well above it. It is my speaking , and soemtimes my own vocabulary that is sub-standard.

"Morris is not important in Spion's posts, his sources are.": Plenty of people in Israel, and porobably elsewhere have criticsed Morris' use of Gurion as ignorant at best...but most say he purposely decieved his readers in (again) purposely mistranslating Gurion's works (esepcially his diary), dealing with questionable material (Nachmani's journal was provided by his son and daughter and was full of obvious contradictions that most Israeli's recognise as non-sensical, hence the lack of judicial action attached to it, as well as from the International Community/Tribunal.etc.), and Morris' own posturing which has changed according to his academic fortunes have.

To make a name for himself he attached his name to the Israeli Revisonist movement (as opposed to Revisonism as a strain of Zionism). After imprinting hismself upon the Israeli public consciousness, he then reversed himself and made a totally different stand although to reconcile his huge contradictions he now labels himself as slightly left of Center and at times, as a Centrist.

This should not matter IF he merely reported data, or was as Pappe labels him, a "Chronologist."He does more though, inserting his own take on things.

As a brilliant Arab pundit has noted, one cannot claim the title of historian when talking of one's own history, or the history of a party intimately connected to one's own. Morris is an Israeli Jew. He writes of the Israeli and "Palestinian" histories (as much as a history of a non-existent people like the "Palestinians" could even exist), and a such is inherently unreliable.

So, any way you cut it, he is unreliable. That you seem obsessed with him and of Nachmani is not suprising since there are very limited sources that corroborate your position.

As for "Ethnic Cleansing," I HAVE dealt with those claims extensively, offering you dozens and dozens of sources, and all of them being Arab or believably objective thirs parties like Time Magazine, London Mail, New York Times, and the UN among others. All sources I have provided rip your position to shreds and yet you keep trotting out the Morris/Nachmani/Gurion dog and pony show. It as if I provide the Israeli State Archives as a source. Of each source I have provided, you refuse to comment. Why?

Then you tell me to "shut up" as if hoping to deflect attention away from your Swiss Cheese type theories and Conspiracy Theories. Sorry, but the truth is self evident and it is not going away nor being lowered into the gutter of ad hominem attacks.

 

[tangentlama]

Actually Tangent, there are posters up in S'derot as well as audio tapes, of which I have one, tht call for Jewish Lw to be exacted on the family of the killer. Sadly, the Chief Rabbi of S'derot is calling for the execution of the killer's siblings, he wants them "hung from trees."

Stuff like that really bothers me. Revenge should not be exacted from innocent peoiple, even if they share the same DNA as that monster. Our traditional methods are much better. To kill a little girl for example, as this Rabbi is suggesting is disgusting.

Already there is an a hullabaloo about the vicious sentiment spoken by these so-called community leaders, and questions about how they can call themselves leaders.

Sadly there is alot of anger and afeeling of impotence especially in S;derot so that we might see it happen.

And of course, what difference with the other - too long looking into the mirror of the enemy and one can see the enemy more clearly - so in Sderot, we have had a small number of people realising that somewhere a Palestinian grandmother is asking herself the same question - "When will the fighting stop?" - "Why were things better when Palestinians could work in Sderot?"

There are MKs ccalling for the incarceration and trial of the rabbi under the Hate Laws but we will have to see. Hopefully nobody will do anything in the interim.

Well, I think he should be replaced by someone who can keep his head in these circumstances and not bray to make matters worse.

I've been reading these letters, and one thing that strikes me, time and time again, is the mismatch of histories (which I know there are cross-community groups working on ratifying).
Sderot and Gaza: letter exchange: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/7270785.stm

 

[nino_savatte]

I know you don't read English very well, but Morris is not important here. It is the sources he cites that are. If Morris hd cited them incorrectly you'd be able to point to someone published saying that, but you haven't. So shut up about Morris and try dealing with the eyewitness reports of Zionists which demonstrate ethnic cleansing

Actually, he claims not to read English very well. I think he reads English very well. He only uses that as a defence when he's trying to be evasive.

 

[rachamim18]

Tangent: "Community leaders.": Theologically speaking, those "leaders" stand on firm ground. Some opposing rabbis CAN argue that without a Sanhedrin in place, it is impossible to mete irrefutable justice but that is a narrow interpreatation that has no theological basis, itr is merely a political compromise and religion does not compromise. Either you follow its strictures or you are an Apikoro, an apostate.

Modern people thiink that we can pick and choose according to our specific and individual needs but Talmud-Torah does not work like that. Many things CAN be interpreted individually but certain things, like Revenge According to Law cannot.

Outside of Eretz Yisroel you have more leeway to adapt it locally but within the nation there is no chance.

Now, on the birght side of things, the Law of Revenge does not apply to family members of an assailant. In fact, that is viewed as a major, major sin. "Sins of the Father."

"A 'Palestinian' grandmothers is asking herself when the fighting will stop.": IF only it is so. I personally know alot of "Palestinians" who DO ask that and pray for it daily. I also knopw many more that take the opposite stance. All one need do is watch local media, if they are not able to ever go personally and they will see wild celebrations anytime an Israeli, especially an Israeli-Jew is killed in acts of terror.

Many, many times the family of a terrorist, especially dead terrorists are ecstatic that their son, daughter,etc. has died while killing an Israeli-Jew. Children play "Shaeed" like Westerns play tag.

"Mismatch of histories.": Yes but then there really is only one history, isn't there? Arabs , for the vast majority, need a dose of reality. To imagine a place you call the Judean Desert was always devoid of Jews is the thinking of of someone who is rife with naivete or someone who needs heavy medication.


Nino: I think I read English pretty good. Certainly not as good as someone in England or who was raised in America but then neither would you be as proficient as me in Hebrew and certainly not in Arabic. Just the way the ball bounces. Glad to see you thinking of me though. Warms the heart.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: I think I read English pretty good.

Only when it is convenient for you to do so. Whenever anyone tries to pin you down, you always try to claim that English isn't your "first language" but even this isn't consistent with the rest of your claims.

Certainly not as good as someone in England or who was raised in America but then neither would you be as proficient as me in Hebrew and certainly not in Arabic. Just the way the ball bounces. Glad to see you thinking of me though. Warms the heart.

Never let it be said that you never type more words than are necessary.

 

[nino_savatte]

The 'no such thing as Palestinians' is an old propaganda and based on a lack of administrative control, rather than social or national identity, however, it is undeniable that Palestinians exist, and that their own national aspirations are as much a reality as those of Israeli national aspirations Both peoples have rights to self-determinism, but ethically and morally, although these cannot be at the expense of the other, there are groups within these national groups that would deny the other national group their self-determinism and social/national identity.

You can put this point to Rach until you're blue in the face. If you think that you're going to get him to modify his position, you're either hopelessly optimistic or naive...or both.