Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

[PTK]

Why do you think it's the biden govt's place to clamp down on those involved and not er the criminal justice system's? Have you not noticed there's nearly 800 cases been brought? https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases have you been paying any attention at all?

Err... because that is what governments do, when they feel that they are under threat.

 

[8ball]

No need to paraphrase, it's from this post onwards

You've just avoided his point and belittled his discussion of it.

I got the impression he didn’t want to discuss it. It has no relevance to anything anyway. The cop describes fighting the rioters up close and said it was like something from a medieval battle.

Unless you are describing something else?

 

[Pickman's model]

Err... because that is what governments do, when they feel that they are under threat.

That's not a very good answer to the question. They've taken the best part of a thousand people to court, what do you want them to do? Intern people?

 

[PTK]

That's not a very good answer to the question. They've taken the best part of a thousand people to court, what do you want them to do? Intern people?

Compared to what happened in the "War on Terror", and in the two "Red scares", and the COINTELPRO actions against the Black Panther Party and other groups, the US government seems to have been quite relaxed about the 6 January rioters.

 

[kabbes]

I got the impression he didn’t want to discuss it. It has no relevance to anything anyway. The cop describes fighting the rioters up close and said it was like something from a medieval battle.

Unless you are describing something else?

The point is that it wasn’t just a bunch of tourists having a day out.

 

[Pickman's model]

Compared to what happened in the "War on Terror", and in the two "Red scares", and the COINTELPRO actions against the Black Panther Party and other groups, the US government seems to have been quite relaxed about the 6 January rioters.

Says the man who prefaced his intervention with 'i haven't been following this closely'

 

[maomao]

The point is that it wasn’t just a bunch of tourists having a day out.

But sneering and pass-ag laughter smilies are so much better than actual discourse.

 

[Cid]

That's not a very good answer to the question. They've taken the best part of a thousand people to court, what do you want them to do? Intern people?

Not sure making them do work experience is the most obvious solution...

 

[8ball]

The point is that it wasn’t just a bunch of tourists having a day out.

Yes, I expect all the prison sentences would be a bad sign for their ongoing tourism industry if that were the case.

 

[David Clapson]

It could start at the 2024 election. Trump will get the Republican nomination and plans will be made to ensure he wins. Typically there are few states which decide the election. Militias will drive around shooting up the black areas in those states, to discourage voting. KKK and militia members in the police will do their best to hobble the police response, by threatening the good officers and emptying the armouries and occupying police stations, which would become the local militia headquarters. If the black community responds by forming their own militias and fighting back, there'd be gun battles and deaths all over the country. Trump would win and there'd be another Capitol riot, but x100, to force Congress to accept his presidency. The dilemma of the law-abiding politicians would be whether to use the military to fight this.

 

[yield]

I wouldn't expect all out national civil war at the click of a finger, some possible routes into a wider armed conflict could be:

Armed protest at state governments (of which there have been plenty already) become actual insurrections or even attempts to secede.

Larger scale versions of Bundy/Waco type events attract larger numbers of militia types and become genuine armed conflicts between militias and the state.

Dissatisfaction at the police's handling of BLM or Portland type protests turns into armed militias turning up for violence.

Mainstream political support from the right of the republican party for any of the above could blow them up into more serious conflicts.

Any sense that the federal government is losing control over any of these would lead to local power struggles and new factions being willing to get involved.

And yes, it would be very shit for most of the world if America descended into violence. Talking about the possibility is not 'enthusiasm'

Yes it'd be grim. You mentioned Bundy, Ammon Bundy ran as an Independent for Governor in Idaho.

‘Republican and more Republican’: Idaho shifts ever rightward
In a state where legislators can boast of membership in the Oath Keepers, the fringe has become mainstream.
Guardian. Wed 11 May 2022

Idaho has long been one of the most conservative states in America with its fair share of extremism. Now, critics warn, the extremists are being normalised. Once dismissed as backwoods fanatics, the far right have entered the political arena and identified a path to power.

That path leads through a state Republican party that has long exploited tensions between independent-spirited Idahoans and the federal government, which manages two-thirds of the state’s land, and more recently embraced former president Donald Trump’s culture of grievance.

Trump beat Joe Biden with 64% of the vote here in the 2020 election. Democrats have not held the governor’s office since 1995 or statewide elected office since 2007. Most elections for the state legislature do not even feature a Democratic candidate.

Florida Posts Openings for State Guard That Democrats Call a ‘Vigilante Militia’
Bloomberg. 31 May 2022

The Florida State Guard was disbanded after World War II, but DeSantis said in December that other states currently have similar forces. While the governor said the unit would primarily aid the Florida National Guard, Democrats accused him of trying to establish a “vigilante militia” and “secret police.”

Next year’s state budget, which is still waiting final approval from DeSantis, has allocated $10 million for the force. The director’s role comes with a $400 to $500 daily stipend, according to the posting.

The state is also looking for individuals between the ages of 18 and 60 who want to volunteer in the force, and all members will complete a 15-day training period and two training days a month for 10 months.

 

[Ax^]

Yes, I expect all the prison sentences would be a bad sign for their ongoing tourism industry if that were the case.

what are you defending atm


just courious?

 

[RD2003]

It could start at the 2024 election. Trump will get the Republican nomination and plans will be made to ensure he wins. Typically there are few states which decide the election. Militias will drive around shooting up the black areas in those states, to discourage voting. KKK and militia members in the police will do their best to hobble the police response, by threatening the good officers and emptying the armouries and occupying police stations, which would become the local militia headquarters. If the black community responds by forming their own militias and fighting back, there'd be gun battles and deaths all over the country. Trump would win and there'd be another Capitol riot, but x100, to force Congress to accept his presidency. The dilemma of the law-abiding politicians would be whether to use the military to fight this.

History never ended after all. The 21st century, where everything starts to break up...

 

[David Clapson]

Here's a very long piece in the Atlantic about how the Trump movement is rigging the 2024 election Trump’s Next Coup Has Already Begun

 

[yield]

Francis Fukuyama on the end of American hegemony
economist Aug 18th 2021

The much bigger challenge to America’s global standing is domestic: American society is deeply polarised, and has found it difficult to find consensus on virtually anything. This polarisation started over conventional policy issues like taxes and abortion, but since then has metastasised into a bitter fight over cultural identity.

The demand for recognition on the part of groups that feel they have been marginalised by elites was something I identified 30 years ago as an Achilles heel of modern democracy. Normally, a big external threat such as a global pandemic should be the occasion for citizens to rally around a common response; the covid-19 crisis served rather to deepen America's divisions, with social distancing, mask-wearing and now vaccinations being seen not as public-health measures but as political markers.

These conflicts have spread to all aspects of life, from sports to the brands of consumer products that red and blue Americans buy. The civic identity that took pride in America as a multiracial democracy in the post-civil rights era has been replaced by warring narratives over 1619 versus 1776—that is, whether the country is founded on slavery or the fight for freedom.

This conflict extends to the separate realities each side believes it sees, realities in which the election in November 2020 was either one of the fairest in American history or else a massive fraud leading to an illegitimate presidency.

 

[8ball]

what are you defending atm


just courious?

Vegan cheese?

 

[Ax^]

like most of your post in the shooting thread ok


stop worrying about this shite is a daft idea

 

[8ball]

like most of your post in the shooting thread ok


stop worrying about this shite is a daft idea

Eruditely put.

 

[Ax^]

odd a thread were i'm 3rd in the posting counting and you don't think i've followed


will give ya 2 points for Eruditely

 

[Ax^]

bring back butchers ffs

 

[8ball]

U ok hun?

 

[Ax^]

could be worse could of been spamming every thread about american politics

 

[Nylock]

Closer to a civil war?

Tourists don't storm government facilities en-masse.
Tourists don't loudly proclaim their desire to summarily execute the deputy head of state -or attempt to go hunting down elected representatives for the same purpose.
Tourists don't tend to enter touristy places by smashing their way in through armoured windows and forcing their way in through entry doors by sheer weight of numbers.
Tourists don't tend to wander around the center of their government flying the flag of a defeated enemy state.
Tourists don't smear their fecal matter over the building they are touring or loot and pillage its contents.
Tourists don't assault the local plod with bearspray, or flag poles, or spears, or try to crush them in doorways or try to wrest their sidearms away from them for unknown (but entirely obvious) reasons.

They weren't there to have a walk around and visit the gift shop -they were there to disrupt the confirmation process for the election of a new head of state and to attempt to reinstall the former one. They were there to overthrow the government by rioting and conducting a coup.

Yes there were some gawkers and hangers-on in that crowd, but the overwhelming majority of the front-lines were there to do a job. Happily it's one that they failed at because, if they had succeeded, January 6th 2020 would have been the trigger event for that spiral of chaos into open armed conflict that has been talked about here and in other places.

Wtf?

What I’ve been saying is pretty plain:

The USA is not in the midst of a civil war.
The USA is not on the brink of a civil war.

For this I get a couple of pages of flapping, equivocation, Humpty Dumpty games and I’m the one who isn’t serious?

The USA is fighting a very hostile culture war that is continuing to polarise the population and drive the wedge ever deeper. It may not yet be the majority of the population engaged in it but the numbers are growing and the open hostility is metastasizing. They may not yet be on the threshold of a 'hot' civil war but they are definitely deep in the throes of a cold one -and it is showing signs of getting far, far worse as time goes on...

 

[8ball]

Tourists don't storm government facilities en-masse.
Tourists don't loudly proclaim their desire to summarily execute the deputy head of state -or attempt to go hunting down elected representatives for the same purpose.
Tourists don't tend to enter touristy places by smashing their way in through armoured windows and forcing their way in through entry doors by sheer weight of numbers.
Tourists don't tend to wander around the center of their government flying the flag of a defeated enemy state.
Tourists don't smear their fecal matter over the building they are touring or loot and pillage its contents.
Tourists don't assault the local plod with bearspray, or flag poles, or spears, or try to crush them in doorways or try to wrest their sidearms away from them for unknown (but entirely obvious) reasons.

They weren't there to have a walk around and visit the gift shop -they were there to disrupt the confirmation process for the election of a new head of state and to attempt to reinstall the former one. They were there to overthrow the government by rioting and conducting a coup.

Yes there were some gawkers and hangers-on in that crowd, but the overwhelming majority of the front-lines were there to do a job. Happily it's one that they failed at because, if they had succeeded, January 6th 2020 would have been the trigger event for that spiral of chaos into open armed conflict that has been talked about here and in other places.


The USA is fighting a very hostile culture war that is continuing to polarise the population and drive the wedge ever deeper. It may not yet be the majority of the population engaged in it but the numbers are growing and the open hostility is metastasizing. They may not yet be on the threshold of a 'hot' civil war but they are definitely deep in the throes of a cold one -and it is showing signs of getting far, far worse as time goes on...

You may have noticed if you were reading closely that I didn’t say they were tourists.

Seems no one is totally settled on what to call that particular tantrum.

Finding the term “cold civil war” quite interesting..

But yeah, the polarisation and the extent to which people live in their own worlds with their own “facts” is definitely a significant problem.

 

[two sheds]

Good people on both sides?

 

[8ball]

Good people on both sides?

I’m sure the chap wearing the animal skin is quite lovely. Will only eat organic, you know.

 

[Nylock]

I think that bunch of confused idiots going round the Capitol acting mostly like tourists have a long way to go before they can take on the State in any meaningful or organised sense.

I understand how mechanisms become obvious after the fact, but we are speculating before the fact. Without some kind of “who does what and why”, it looks to me like some posters have become over-excited by clickbait.

What timeline are we talking about by the way? Something kicking off around the next election? Or a decade? Twenty years?

I def wouldn’t want to speculate as far ahead as 20 years the way things are right now.

You may have noticed if you were reading closely that I didn’t say they were tourists.

I never stated that you did. My response was clarifying what tourists don't tend to act like (as response to the bolded section above). Mostly or otherwise.

 

[8ball]

I never stated that you did. My response was clarifying what tourists don't tend to act like (as response to the bolded section above). Mostly or otherwise.

Yeah, and a huge number of people there didn’t do anything more than take up space. The FBI itself concluded that it wasn’t an organised attack.

It was a shambolic gathering ranging from serious violent elements to people just kind of milling about. Unprecedented and weird, but the “civil war” stuff is just hyperbole.

There was no plan, and no one was going to grab hold of a magic radio and turn the USA into a fascist dictatorship.

 

[Humberto]

Yeah, and a huge number of people there didn’t do anything more than take up space. The FBI itself concluded that it wasn’t an organised attack.

It was a shambolic gathering ranging from serious violent elements to people just kind of milling about. Unprecedented and weird, but the “civil war” stuff is just hyperbole.

There was no plan, and no one was going to grab hold of a magic radio and turn the USA into a fascist dictatorship.

The plan was to make it Trump's fiefdom. Unshackled if you can imagine. An inert centre gladhanding eachother is ripe for certain elements to do their thing. Not greatly likely when the dust settles but still too likely.

 

[8ball]

The plan was to make it Trump's fiefdom. Unshackled if you can imagine. An inert centre gladhanding eachother is ripe for certain elements to do their thing. Not greatly likely when the dust settles but still too likely.

I think a lot of people who went had a whole load of different ideas of what would happen when they got there, including people who thought a revolution wouldn’t involve mean counter-measures like pepper spray.