Is America burning? (Black Lives Matter protests, civil unrest and riots 2020)

[SpineyNorman]

Hardly a debate really is it? No need to go all Jordan Peterson on us just cos a load of posters coming up with creative ways to call Tom a cunt.

 

[hitmouse]

Interesting new study: Killings by Police Declined after Black Lives Matter Protests

The study, posted in February as an online preprint item on the Social Science Research Network, is the first of its kind to measure a possible correlation between BLM and police homicide numbers. It found that municipalities where BLM protests have been held experienced as much as a 20 percent decrease in killings by police, resulting in an estimated 300 fewer deaths nationwide in 2014–2019. The occurrence of local protests increased the likelihood of police departments adopting body-worn cameras and community-policing initiatives, the study also found. Many cities with larger and more frequent BLM protests experienced greater declines in police homicides.

I suppose it's like the exact opposite of the dril drunk driving joke - BLM protests may have led to as much as a 20 percent decrease in killings by police, but they also broke some windows, so it's impossible to say if they're good or not.

 

[TomUS]

You accept no system beyond liberal capitalism, a system responsible for the highest mass murder body count in the history of the world, where the law is based on the right of the money-bags to exploit the have-not. Meanwhile, you are deaf to the views of anyone who dares to question this vile set up. You sir, are the totalitarian... and a cunt.

I think the system responsible for the highest mass murder body count is communism.

 

[existentialist]

I think the system responsible for the highest mass murder body count is communism.

Of course you do. And I expect you had to sift through a lot of facts before you found some that confirmed your fixed beliefs. Assuming you even bothered with that.

 

[TomUS]

Meanwhile, the anarchists are at it again in downtown Portland as well as other parts of town.

PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) — Protests erupted outside the Mark Hatfield Federal Courthouse Thursday night as fires were set and federal service officers using chemical munitions to move the crowd back......A group of about 50-60 people dressed in black were seen ripping down plywood, spray painting graffiti and setting fires. After a while, Federal Protective Officers pushed them back with tear gas and less-lethal munitions......
Over the course of about 2 hours, multiple skirmishes were seen as protesters set fires, officers put them out, then pushed the protesters back again. Tear gas was used outside the federal courthouse and protesters were arrested or detained.

‘Self-described anarchists’

With an online post indicating a “Direct Action” protest is planned for the Pearl District on Friday, the Pearl District Neighborhood Association hosted a meeting with representatives from PPB and Mayor Ted Wheeler’s office.....Robert King, the mayor’s senior public safety adviser, said the group spearheading recent protests is made up of “self-described anarchists.”

https://www.koin.com/news/protests/portland-protesters-protect-the-land-end-america/

 

[existentialist]

Meanwhile, the anarchists are at it again in downtown Portland as well as other parts of town.

https://www.koin.com/news/protests/portland-protesters-protect-the-land-end-america/

"anarchists", LOL. We've seen the, ah, flexibility of your definitions of people you don't like plenty of times already.

 

[TomUS]

It's not just my definition. From the article.......

Robert King, the mayor’s senior public safety adviser, said the group spearheading recent protests is made up of “self-described anarchists.”

Do you think these people are helping the working class?

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I think the system responsible for the highest mass murder body count is communism.

So how many deaths did communism cause? What's the figure?

 

[existentialist]

It's not just my definition. From the article.......

Do you think these people are helping the working class?

Nope. But then neither are you.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I think the system responsible for the highest mass murder body count is communism.

Are you able to answer my question? What is the death toll of communism?

 

[hitmouse]

I think the Portland anarchists and antifa who started mass production of hand sanitizer as early as March or April last year were being quite helpful. As was their response to the wildfires.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Looks like TomUS has legged it!

 

[TomUS]

Are you able to answer my question? What is the death toll of communism?

According to The Black Book Of Communism, 94 million since the Bolshevik revolution. Have any opinion on this book?

According to the introduction, the number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 94 million.[8]:4 The statistics of victims include deaths through executions, man-made hunger, famine, war, deportations and forced labor. The breakdown of the number of deaths is given as follows:

• 65 million in the People's Republic of China
• 20 million in the Soviet Union
• 2 million in Cambodia
• 2 million in North Korea
• 1.7 million in Ethiopia
• 1.5 million in Afghanistan
• 1 million in the Eastern Bloc
• 1 million in Vietnam
• 150,000 in Latin America
• 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power"[8]:4

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pickman's model]

According to The Black Book Of Communism, 94 million since the Bolshevik revolution. Have any opinion on this book?

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ah right so you don't in fact think this at all, you saw it in a book and thought it'd be smart to repeat it as though it was your idea. Have you checked any of the claims in the book? Or did you just decide to accept it uncritically as true?

 

[TomUS]

Ah right so you don't in fact think this at all, you saw it in a book and thought it'd be smart to repeat it as though it was your idea. Have you checked any of the claims in the book? Or did you just decide to accept it uncritically as true?

I was asked for a figure and provided one. Ever heard of this book? Have any opinion about it?

 

[hitmouse]

According to The Black Book Of Communism, 94 million since the Bolshevik revolution. Have any opinion on this book?

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Did you get all the way through that wikipedia page?

Whereas chapters of the book that describe the events in separate Communist states were highly praised, some generalizations made by Courtois in the introduction to the book became a subject of criticism both on scholarly and political[30]:139 grounds.[3]:236[31]:13[32]:68–72 Moreover, two of the book's main contributors (Jean-Louis Margolin and Nicolas Werth) as well as Karel Bartosek[6] publicly disassociated themselves from Stéphane Courtois' statements in the introduction and criticized his editorial conduct.[29] Margolin and Werth felt that Courtois was "obsessed" with arriving at a total of 100 million killed which resulted in "sloppy and biased scholarship",[33] faulted him for exaggerating death tolls in specific countries[6][34]:194[35]:123 and rejected the comparison between Communism and Nazism.[3]

Based on the results of their studies, Courtois estimated the total number of the victims at between 65 and 93 million, an unjustified and unclear sum according to Margolin and Werth.[36] In particular, Margolin, who authored the book's chapter on Vietnam, clarified "that he has never mentioned a million deaths in Vietnam".[6] Margolin likened Courtois's effort to "militant political activity, indeed, that of a prosecutor amassing charges in the service of a cause, that of a global condemnation of the Communist phenomenon as an essentially criminal phenomenon."

...

Historian Noam Chomsky criticized the book and its reception as one-sided by outlining economist Amartya Sen's research on hunger. While India's democratic institutions prevented famines, its excess of mortality over China—potentially attributable to the latter's more equal distribution of medical and other resources—was nonetheless close to 4 million per year for non-famine years. Chomsky argued that "supposing we now apply the methodology of the Black Book" to India, "the democratic capitalist 'experiment' has caused more deaths than in the entire history of [...] Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, and tens of millions more since, in India alone."

...

Journalist William Blum, a critic of American foreign policy, stated that it is "a book that is to the study of communism what the [fabricated] Protocols of the Elders of Zion is to Judaism."

You'll notice that several of the critics of that book quoted there (Margolin and Werth) are among the contributors to it. You know you've fucked up when you co-write a book with someone and they still end up slagging off the book they contributed to as being full of sloppy and biased scholarship.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was asked for a figure and provided one. Ever heard of this book? Have any opinion about it?

Your house is built on sand

 

[krtek a houby]

Your house is built on sand

It gets everywhere

 

[hitmouse]

Also, for what it's worth, I believe the "protect the land" protest in Portland mentioned above was in solidarity with the Stop Line 3 movement against a proposed oil pipeline built by the company responsible for the largest inland oil spill in US history, which might be relevant information for people to consider when deciding how justified, proportional, etc, it was.

 

[Pickman's model]

It gets everywhere

I was watching point break last night, keanu reeves in pursuit of bankrobbing surfers. There's a scene on a beach after a night of love where astonishingly kr not sandy at all. I want to know his secret.

 

[TomUS]

Also, for what it's worth, I believe the "protect the land" protest in Portland mentioned above was in solidarity with the Stop Line 3 movement against a proposed oil pipeline built by the company responsible for the largest inland oil spill in US history, which might be relevant information for people to consider when deciding how justified, proportional, etc, it was.

And attacking a federal courthouse will help stop a pipeline? This group of anarchists also smashed up another part of town called the Pearl district.......residences and small businesses. I wonder what cause they were fighting for when they did that.

 

[Pickman's model]

And attacking a federal courthouse will help stop a pipeline? This group of anarchists also smashed up another part of town called the Pearl district.......residences and small businesses. I wonder what cause they were fighting for when they did that.

So not only have you not read that book you haven't read the wiki page you linked to

 

[TomUS]

So not only have you not read that book you haven't read the wiki page you linked to

The figures in the Wiki article looked fairly reasonable. The book gives the figure of 20 million killed in the Soviet Union. Does that seem wildly out of line to you? Another Wiki article lists various estimates. The consensus seems to be around 100 million. Any way you slice it, that's a lot of killing for a system that lasted only about 75 years (with the exception of North Korea which carries on with the program).

Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think the system responsible for the highest mass murder body count is communism.

And he's got a black book to prove it

 

[Pickman's model]

The figures in the Wiki article looked fairly reasonable. The book gives the figure of 20 million killed in the Soviet Union. Does that seem wildly out of line to you? Another Wiki article lists various estimates. The consensus seems to be around 100 million. Any way you slice it, that's a lot of killing for a system that lasted only about 75 years (with the exception of North Korea which carries on with the program).

Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

that's a no then, you've read neither the book nor the wiki page. And never a word about the ongoing deaths from capitalism, 15 deaths a day in us workplaces alone

 

[krtek a houby]

I was watching point break last night, keanu reeves in pursuit of bankrobbing surfers. There's a scene on a beach after a night of love where astonishingly kr not sandy at all. I want to know his secret.

Johnny Pneumatic

 

[TomUS]

that's a no then, you've read neither the book nor the wiki page. And never a word about the ongoing deaths from capitalism, 15 deaths a day in us workplaces alone

Nobody disputes there are deaths under capitalism. My mentioning it would have served no purpose.

 

[8ball]

Remember when we tried to add up the number of people killed by capitalism and just had to stop counting after a bit?

 

[krtek a houby]

Nobody disputes there are deaths under capitalism. My mentioning it would have served no purpose.

What's the solution to oppression, inherently racist institutions and inequality, then, Tom?

Leafleting campaigns?

 

[Pickman's model]

Nobody disputes there are deaths under capitalism. My mentioning it would have served no purpose.

Your mentioning anything serves no purpose