invoicing demanding customers

[campanula]

O FFS, He finally emerges from his study with a list of 'snagging'...such as changing the colours of the window frames (from cream to white) despite all the other woodwork being cream and having said nothing for 3 months!...plus demanding extra items such as shelving, which he seems to think should be included in final snagging and therefore no labour costs. I have to go to Norwich to babysit grand-daughter and really cannot hang around until fuckwit decides to write me a cheque (which probably equates to about 2 weeks rent from his tenants) He didn't used to be such a selfish cunt (or at least could manage to disguise it by being generally OK) but he really us an unpleasant piece of work. I suppose it's fair to say I don't want him as a friend either...but am feeling a bit sensitive since an old friend of my daughter's recently killed themselves so I don't want to just abandon people who are, in effect, their own worst enemy.
TBF, most of my customers are decent people, there are always a couple of shits though, and I am not really cut out for haggling over billing so I tend to just comply and then feel bad about myself and the job.

And he claimed not to be able to find my invoice - have gone home to send another!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I have been working (gardening, building) for a particular customer for 18 years...and it has always been fraught. For example, he never pays me the full amount but always holds back a couple of hundred quids until the next job (I have more or less renovated the whole house and garden, including a BTL property). As he has got richer - he has become more right wing and unpleasant, plus he never, ever manages to say 'thank you' or 'good job' (and we have done some excellent work). lately, he has started to demand that my invoices are in the form of a spreadsheet with all my expenditure itemised and all my labour explained (it takes fucking hours). I feel there has been a complete breakdown of trust but it is complicated because we also has a friendship which has become quite toxic and unhealthy. It has always been so, tbf, but I needed the money and he has some issues with working class men so is completely reliant on me and sweetheart to do all the house maintenance. I haven't been paid since January (he owes £1700) and is still stamping his feet and pulling on his lip (I kid you not) - like a petulant toddler - made worse because sweetheart finally cracked and told him that he didn't fucking own us. He is still demanding this hugely detailed bill (I have offered him all the receipts for materials) and basically, treating us with contempt. None of my other customers demand spreadsheets.

It is a bit complicated because he is also quite a lonely man (although mainly because of his cuntishness) but I don't feel I can simply sack him off. I arrived for work around Xmas only to find him very ill in bed having just returned from one of his interminable trips to Nigeria. I had to call an ambulance and be generally supportive - he put me down as his next of kin which I found tremendously sad. It is a tricky one because I feel that the power imbalance has become unworkable and I am honestly sick of his entitled attitude... I have no idea how to salvage this...if indeed, it is even possible.

Don’t do any more work for him, take him to court for any unpaid/outstanding invoices. It really is that simple.

 

[existentialist]

O FFS, He finally emerges from his study with a list of 'snagging'...such as changing the colours of the window frames (from cream to white) despite all the other woodwork being cream and having said nothing for 3 months!...plus demanding extra items such as shelving, which he seems to think should be included in final snagging and therefore no labour costs. I have to go to Norwich to babysit grand-daughter and really cannot hang around until fuckwit decides to write me a cheque (which probably equates to about 2 weeks rent from his tenants) He didn't used to be such a selfish cunt (or at least could manage to disguise it by being generally OK) but he really us an unpleasant piece of work. I suppose it's fair to say I don't want him as a friend either...but am feeling a bit sensitive since an old friend of my daughter's recently killed themselves so I don't want to just abandon people who are, in effect, their own worst enemy.
TBF, most of my customers are decent people, there are always a couple of shits though, and I am not really cut out for haggling over billing so I tend to just comply and then feel bad about myself and the job.

And he claimed not to be able to find my invoice - have gone home to send another!

This is pretty outrageous.

I know quite a few people have advised you to get legal on his ass, but if you're having trouble holding the line with things as they are, it might be that doing that would feel even more difficult - I could well understand that feeling.

I do think, though, that your having to suck it up every time probably isn't helping the way you feel about the job, or yourself. I think it might be worth channelling some of that frustration into actually confronting him, not with a lawsuit, but with some reality: your reality. Probably once you've got the outstanding invoice amount down to a sum you can afford to lose. Point out to him what his behaviour looks like to you, overall. Not each individual slight, but the general themes of his behaviour - how he seems to "lose" paperwork at his convenience, the endless snagging and quibbling, and the unpleasantness. Tell him, even, that his behaviour takes all the joy out of doing your job, and that you often wonder whether it's actually worth it.

I'm willing to bet that you're already charging him a metric shedload less than he'd have to pay out on the open market (you mentioned "mates rates"), and I think that has to stop.

In fact, on the subject of "mates rates" (which I think is a seriously dodgy concept), it seems to me it's all about mates when it comes to how much you charge, but it's hard-nosed businessman when it comes to him making his demands. He can't have it both ways - if he wants watertight commercial arrangements, he can start signing off on 40 page job specs and paying the going rate; if he wants mates rates, then he has to operate with a bit of flexibility. Personally, I think I wouldn't offer him another mates rates quote - quote as high as you think you can get away with, and at least then it'll be more worth your while when he's fucking you around.

 

[campanula]

It really is that simple.

It is now. I think we are at the point of dispensing with friendship and just being very businesslike. It's always tricky when friendships and finance become mixed up (although I actually have become friends with a number of customers over the years because gardening especially requires continuity). I honestly have problems with being assertive (terribly shy, floundering and not really able to read or deal with people well (prefer plants). Just got to get my money, do the final bits (not including fucking glass shelves) and vanish. Will dispense with money for the last 20 odd hours (work done since writing this invoice)...just to be free of it all.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Sod that, chase him what you’re owed.

People that don’t pay for work done get right on my tits

 

[campanula]

Gods, existentialist - absolutely nailed it. I often wonder why I always feel so anxious about working for hom when I know I am conscientious, careful and always, always go the extra mile. In fact, I often double my efforts (which makes me feel awful about myself as though I am begging for approval. A really unhealthy dynamic has been allowed to solidify.

 

[campanula]

Also, I have never taken anyone to court in my life - wouldn't have the slightest idea how (most of my other customers are really not like this. Anyway, a big thanks to Urban forum mates for replying (feel a bit whiny now). Back for the next round. I do still have his keys!

 

[campanula]

OMG - he has just phoned and is now querying the bill. I have to find all the receipts and go through how I have been spending the last 122 hours (while he was off in fucking Africa). And worse, this all makes me feel actually dishonest. I get all anxious and sweaty and he makes fun of my lack of computing abililty (I write all my hours and expenditure in a notebook). This is just so fucking unfair...I am really worried I might lose my shit or start to cry or summat...it is just a naked power game (which I avoid like the plague cos I no good at this sort of thing). If I could afford it, I would sack it all in just to avoid this grief (but I really, really need to be paid and I think he is going to use that as more evidence of my general uselessness - this is going a bit bad. Just rambling now cos I have to get back in the van and go to account for myself...as though I am ripping him off (despite the obvious evidence of what I have been doing).
Sigh....off I go.

 

[Wookey]

OMG - he has just phoned and is now querying the bill. I have to find all the receipts and go through how I have been spending the last 122 hours (while he was off in fucking Africa). And worse, this all makes me feel actually dishonest. I get all anxious and sweaty and he makes fun of my lack of computing abililty (I write all my hours and expenditure in a notebook). This is just so fucking unfair...I am really worried I might lose my shit or start to cry or summat...it is just a naked power game (which I avoid like the plague cos I no good at this sort of thing). If I could afford it, I would sack it all in just to avoid this grief (but I really, really need to be paid and I think he is going to use that as more evidence of my general uselessness - this is going a bit bad. Just rambling now cos I have to get back in the van and go to account for myself...as though I am ripping him off (despite the obvious evidence of what I have been doing).
Sigh....off I go.

At this stage, he's clearly playing silly buggers, so I would small claims court it and allow the law to deal with it for you. Online claim for your amount would be about £105 I think: www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

And I wouldn't pick up the phone to him ever again, you do NOT need future income from him that badly if he undermines your health and confidence like this. You are not St John's Ambulance, and it's not your job to save him from himself.

 

[existentialist]

Gods, existentialist - absolutely nailed it. I often wonder why I always feel so anxious about working for hom when I know I am conscientious, careful and always, always go the extra mile. In fact, I often double my efforts (which makes me feel awful about myself as though I am begging for approval. A really unhealthy dynamic has been allowed to solidify.

Liquefy that dynamic!

FWIW, he probably isn't actively being evil. He's probably just so unaware that he's just taking what's on offer, and grabbing a little bit more besides. So he's encroached and encroached, and you've fallen back each time for a quiet life.

Now is time to dig in your heels. If you do nothing else than that, you will be sending him an unexpected message - he'll probably be mystified and maybe even outraged. Then you can start to push back.

 

[Thora]

OMG - he has just phoned and is now querying the bill. I have to find all the receipts and go through how I have been spending the last 122 hours (while he was off in fucking Africa). And worse, this all makes me feel actually dishonest. I get all anxious and sweaty and he makes fun of my lack of computing abililty (I write all my hours and expenditure in a notebook). This is just so fucking unfair...I am really worried I might lose my shit or start to cry or summat...it is just a naked power game (which I avoid like the plague cos I no good at this sort of thing). If I could afford it, I would sack it all in just to avoid this grief (but I really, really need to be paid and I think he is going to use that as more evidence of my general uselessness - this is going a bit bad. Just rambling now cos I have to get back in the van and go to account for myself...as though I am ripping him off (despite the obvious evidence of what I have been doing).
Sigh....off I go.

Say no, this is the final bill and he needs to pay up immediately or you will do no more work for him and will be taking court action.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Tell him to fuck off, take him to court.

 

[campanula]

Rightyo - got the cheque (although, to my shame, I bottled it and sent sweetheart in with all the receipts (which is mean cos he is almost as bad as I am). I am just going to avoid doing anything else (although all the kickplates are still off in the kitchen from floorlaying (which I haven't been paid for). Am off to the wood for the weekend and then I will compose an email (cowardly but...) telling him that I am drawing a line under doing anymore work because it really isn't worth the candle (I was almost considering writing off my last fee because it is unendurable (although most people wouldn't be as weedy as I am). existentialist - I think you are right - he isn't evil but he has a sort of inner list of who he can intimidate (invariably women - he is a massive chauvinist) and indeed, I haven't stood my ground that well at all (unless he is murdering plants - I get pretty irate then).

 

[existentialist]

Rightyo - got the cheque (although, to my shame, I bottled it and sent sweetheart in with all the receipts (which is mean cos he is almost as bad as I am). I am just going to avoid doing anything else (although all the kickplates are still off in the kitchen from floorlaying (which I haven't been paid for). Am off to the wood for the weekend and then I will compose an email (cowardly but...) telling him that I am drawing a line under doing anymore work because it really isn't worth the candle (I was almost considering writing off my last fee because it is unendurable (although most people wouldn't be as weedy as I am). existentialist - I think you are right - he isn't evil but he has a sort of inner list of who he can intimidate (invariably women - he is a massive chauvinist) and indeed, I haven't stood my ground that well at all (unless he is murdering plants - I get pretty irate then).

Think of yourself as a plant, then

 

[Sue]

Rightyo - got the cheque (although, to my shame, I bottled it and sent sweetheart in with all the receipts (which is mean cos he is almost as bad as I am). I am just going to avoid doing anything else (although all the kickplates are still off in the kitchen from floorlaying (which I haven't been paid for). Am off to the wood for the weekend and then I will compose an email (cowardly but...) telling him that I am drawing a line under doing anymore work because it really isn't worth the candle (I was almost considering writing off my last fee because it is unendurable (although most people wouldn't be as weedy as I am). existentialist - I think you are right - he isn't evil but he has a sort of inner list of who he can intimidate (invariably women - he is a massive chauvinist) and indeed, I haven't stood my ground that well at all (unless he is murdering plants - I get pretty irate then).

He sounds like an absolute nightmare . I'd suggest you wait for the cheque to clear before sending the email/otherwise confronting him though in case he starts playing silly buggers with cancelling it or whatever.

I'd also send him a final invoice with the email for the rest of the money he owes you and give him a date he needs to pay it by with whatever wording was suggested upthread about court action if he doesn't comply. I'd also not take any more calls from him -- let any further communication be in writing. You shouldn't have to put up with such horrible behaviour. Fuck him frankly.

 

[campanula]

Think of yourself as a plant, then

O, I do (or at least that 'if you were a plant which one would you be' game)...hence my username - a shyly nodding, persistent, but inclined to run, creeping bellflower - campanula rotundifolia, easily overlooked but basically charming.

I love the idea of doing everything in writing - obviates my technical fuckwittery. I will dig out my posh fountain pen and cream vellum - I have rather good handwriting too.
He is a terrible racist too - spends a lot of time disbursing money as part of this foundation he heads (not his money, of course, but a friend's who was a garden centre heiress) and I am certain he has been exercising that old colonial superiority while playing the big man in Africa. Absolute Islamophobe, gets crazed by 'all these eastern europeans having 10 babies and living off the state blah blah. He used to hide a lot of it under a Guardian-reading liberalism but doesn't bother around me and also likes to wind me up...but not just in a 'only bantz' type of way - he really is an entitled shit. Unsurprisngly, he has fucked off nearly all his friends, including his sole living family member and has become an embittered and nasty person who I sort of feel bad for (although my patience has taken a battering).

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Start charging a late fee. If he's more than 90 days behind that seems quite reasonable. He is costing you extra work and hassle in collecting.

 

[Gromit]

OMG - he has just phoned and is now querying the bill. I have to find all the receipts and go through how I have been spending the last 122 hours

No you don't. What you need to do is to learn assertiveness.

Your answer should have been...
"Look I've been charging you mates rates for the last X years and you have the cheek to query my invoice. If you aren't happy with the size of the invoice you can go to someone else in future and when they charge you three times as much you'll wish you treated me with some fucking respect" Then hang up before he answers.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

campanula

He is keeping you on a leash. He is lonely, needy, and greedy. He is using your good nature and compassion as a fulcrum point. The reason he doesn’t pay you off in full and keeps you dancing on his demands is because he wants to keep you coming back. Your company, your presence in his life is the thing he wants. Even if it means pissing you off, upsetting you and leaving you wrung out, he’ll always take from you.

He is toxic. Do not allow him to use his own loneliness to manipulate you into returning to him.

 

[Epona]

...and he has some issues with working class men so is completely reliant on me and sweetheart to do all the house maintenance...

That is one of the strangest things I have ever seen posted on here (and I've visited knobbing and sobbing forum) - I've always disapproved of the term "special snowflake" but I think it maybe deserves an outing on this occasion. Stop pandering to this fuckwit.

Edit: (Sorry if this post is a bit blunt, that sentence I quoted managed to press several of my buttons - I have also just now caught up and read subsequent posts - demand payment and then ditch this pratt, go through small claims if he won't pay - life is too short and precious to have someone like this wasting your time)...

 

[existentialist]

No you don't. What you need to do is to learn assertiveness.

Your answer should have been...
"Look I've been charging you mates rates for the last X years and you have the cheek to query my invoice. If you aren't happy with the size of the invoice you can go to someone else in future and when they charge you three times as much you'll wish you treated me with some fucking respect" Then hang up before he answers.

This kind of advice is all very well, but it's pretty obvious from what campanula has already posted that, if she was the sort of person to be able to do what you're suggesting, she'd have done it by now. It's all very well us telling people what we'd do (or, in some cases, what we fantasise we'd do), but that's of no use to them if they'd just as easily fly as go toe-to-toe with a racist, chauvinistic, manipulative piece of shit who's been treating them like crap for years.

There's been quite a lot of that kind of advice on this thread - it's inevitable, to some extent - but most people have managed to stop shy of the "What you need to do is..." stuff I've quoted above, which I think is rude, dismissive, and a bit patronising.

 

[Gromit]

This kind of advice is all very well, but it's pretty obvious from what campanula has already posted that, if she was the sort of person to be able to do what you're suggesting, she'd have done it by now. It's all very well us telling people what we'd do (or, in some cases, what we fantasise we'd do), but that's of no use to them if they'd just as easily fly as go toe-to-toe with a racist, chauvinistic, manipulative piece of shit who's been treating them like crap for years.

There's been quite a lot of that kind of advice on this thread - it's inevitable, to some extent - but most people have managed to stop shy of the "What you need to do is..." stuff I've quoted above, which I think is rude, dismissive, and a bit patronising.

I went overboard on the suggested text (for effect) but I'm serious about learning assertiveness.

Which isn't about aggression as many people think but a learnable skill to help people stand up for themselves.
One of the first lessons Assertiveness Training will teach is that No isn't a swear word but a perfectly valid answer. Some people just can't say No. This person taking advantage needs to hear campanula say it.

Itemized invoice.
No I don't do them.
Why not?
I just don't.

Notice how I didn't add Sorry or even an excuse / justification (such as I don't have time).
Not apologising for things you shouldn't have to apologise for is another lesson they teach.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

and he has some issues with working class men so is completely reliant on me and sweetheart to do all the house maintenance.

That is one of the strangest things I have ever seen posted on here (and I've visited knobbing and sobbing forum) - I've always disapproved of the term "special snowflake" but I think it maybe deserves an outing on this occasion. Stop pandering to this fuckwit.

I missed that first time round.

Bluntly, that's his sodding problem not yours.

If he wasn't being quite so shitty towards you, then maybe put up with it, but if he's pissing you about...

Maybe it would be easier to say

and he has some issues

 

[Wookey]

I went overboard on the suggested text (for effect) but I'm serious about learning assertiveness.

Which isn't about aggression as many people think but a learnable skill to help people stand up for themselves.
One of the first lessons Assertiveness Training will teach is that No isn't a swear word but a perfectly valid answer. Some people just can't say No. This person taking advantage needs to hear campanula say it.

Itemized invoice.
No I don't do them.
Why not?
I just don't.

Notice how I didn't add Sorry or even an excuse / justification (such as I don't have time).
Not apologising for things you shouldn't have to apologise for is another lesson they teach.

100% agree. It's like a muscle, the more you use it the better you get at it. And yet many people don't even realise they have the muscle there to be used.

I think that sharing boundaries can be really healthy, describing how far WE would allow someone to abuse us gives other people with no boundaries an example to see, I know it helped me when I didn't know what personal boundaries were, to see assertive people block at the first sign of shitty behaviour. It saves a massive amount of time and energy, which can then be better spent playing with ginger kittens and planting flowers.

 

[Epona]

This kind of advice is all very well, but it's pretty obvious from what campanula has already posted that, if she was the sort of person to be able to do what you're suggesting, she'd have done it by now. It's all very well us telling people what we'd do (or, in some cases, what we fantasise we'd do), but that's of no use to them if they'd just as easily fly as go toe-to-toe with a racist, chauvinistic, manipulative piece of shit who's been treating them like crap for years.

There's been quite a lot of that kind of advice on this thread - it's inevitable, to some extent - but most people have managed to stop shy of the "What you need to do is..." stuff I've quoted above, which I think is rude, dismissive, and a bit patronising.

I actually think what is needed is support to let the OP know that they are within their rights to restrict this bloke's impact on their life, and support and advice to help them through that - saying ok you're shy and find this difficult to deal with so you should stay under the yoke is not helpful either.

EDIT: (My intention is not to put you down or dismiss your advice, but I do actually think multiple people on an internet forum - not in person of course, but online - suggesting "what you should do is..." as a firm course of action in something like this, can be helpful in that it may well be providing backup to the poster's instinct that something isn't right here and they need to act. If someone was physically standing over the OP demanding "what you should do is..." then it would be different, but as it stands it is all just advice and moral support)

 

[weltweit]

when I first went freelance my first customer was a large US company. The marketing people there gave me plenty of work, but the payments were organised by the accounts department who invariably tried to pay as late as possible.

It got to the stage where I had to say to the marketing people, no more work until invoices XY & Z are paid. It was tricky because it was not their department's fault, but it was the only way to get paid.

Your situation is simpler in that the people ordering the work and the people paying for it are the same person. I agree with inflating the invoice to either 1) give you room to make a prompt payment discount and 2) to make up for the pain and hassle of chasing payment.

 

[campanula]

Epona - cant do highlighting (quotes) so tagging will have ro do...but yep, it is almost laughable. We subbed out the plumbing of 2 bathroom renovations...and he hid in his bedroom, the entire time they (plumbers) were there - perfectly nice, helpful men but my guy couldn't even manage to engage with them - requests had to be relayed through us. I am completely working class myself but function as a sort of pet prole, I think.
existentialist - ah, I don't mind being told what to do - it's nice to know that people are taking the time to respond...and it's not as if I don't give myself a firm talking to. It is highly unlikely that I would become assertive overnight but I did at least get angry about different standards being upheld between me and the plumbers but dealing with someone with a really thick skin just means you have to keep on doing it...
Because the work is usually so utterly non standard (and frankly baffling, such as a terrarium, constructed on top of a wardrobe or the specially sawn floorbords because he wanted entire 20foot runs...yet would not let us replace old and rotting roofing battens), I have always worked for an hourly rate...so don't feel I can inflate it (and true, it is ridiculously cheap). I am going to attempt to draw a line under any more work for various reasons - not just his attitude...but other (bizarre) reasons. His weird priorities are going to come to a head as he has undermined the building to a point of severe impending doom.

 

[weltweit]

I think campanula if you are undercharging that is also something you will need to address. I worked at too low a rate for a couple of years until it became obvious I was being stupid. I then doubled my rates a couple of times and didn't actually specify my new hourly rate on my invoices. So I just put item1 £90.00 item2 £60.00 etc .. no one complained and I started earning more what the work was worth. It can be done.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

campanula - do you have a standard terms of business document? can you get one either off the web, or any trade organisation?

this would stop customers pissing about demanding invoices in a different form / different colour paper every time or any bollocks like that

 

[campanula]

Thank you for the heads up, @Puddy _Tat. Tbf, I am mostly just a jobbing gardener - my partner's health issues meant scaling back the landscaping, so now I work until I have earned enough to pay rent and bills then down tools...not VAT rated and not even liable for tax... Because I am getting on, I have just been trundling along until I am pensioned off (not a very dynamic business-like thing).
In an ideal world, I would like nothing more than working as a plant propagator at a nursery (never dealing with a human (or invoice) again.

Grief - can't seem to get tagging to work either (I hate PCs)