invoicing demanding customers

[campanula]

I have been working (gardening, building) for a particular customer for 18 years...and it has always been fraught. For example, he never pays me the full amount but always holds back a couple of hundred quids until the next job (I have more or less renovated the whole house and garden, including a BTL property). As he has got richer - he has become more right wing and unpleasant, plus he never, ever manages to say 'thank you' or 'good job' (and we have done some excellent work). lately, he has started to demand that my invoices are in the form of a spreadsheet with all my expenditure itemised and all my labour explained (it takes fucking hours). I feel there has been a complete breakdown of trust but it is complicated because we also has a friendship which has become quite toxic and unhealthy. It has always been so, tbf, but I needed the money and he has some issues with working class men so is completely reliant on me and sweetheart to do all the house maintenance. I haven't been paid since January (he owes £1700) and is still stamping his feet and pulling on his lip (I kid you not) - like a petulant toddler - made worse because sweetheart finally cracked and told him that he didn't fucking own us. He is still demanding this hugely detailed bill (I have offered him all the receipts for materials) and basically, treating us with contempt. None of my other customers demand spreadsheets.

It is a bit complicated because he is also quite a lonely man (although mainly because of his cuntishness) but I don't feel I can simply sack him off. I arrived for work around Xmas only to find him very ill in bed having just returned from one of his interminable trips to Nigeria. I had to call an ambulance and be generally supportive - he put me down as his next of kin which I found tremendously sad. It is a tricky one because I feel that the power imbalance has become unworkable and I am honestly sick of his entitled attitude... I have no idea how to salvage this...if indeed, it is even possible.

 

[Duncan2]

bone him

 

[weltweit]

campanula could you make a stand for payment in reasonable terms. i.e. when the debt is due, otherwise no other work is done?

 

[salem]

It sounds like he has no problem pushing the limits and you are wary stop him. Therefore the balance will always be shifting in his favour.

The money he owes you is one thing. Do you have an terms / quote agreed on that?

Going forward you need to lay down terms and stick to them. He can agree to them or not work with you. His choice. So long as you're being reasonable then working to his terms is selling yourself short.
o
The friendship etc is seperate again and you can be friends with someone with or without business and if he doesn't want to be friends beyond business then it doesn't sound like you're great friends anyway (in fact it doesn't sound like that even now)

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Seems a sad situation but honestly he's not going to have a sudden turnaround and become a wonderful person. It sounds like he's increasingly aware that he is dependent on you and trying to deny it by being increasingly arsey, yet also being increasingly dependent. But if he's dug into that mindset then no matter how contradictory it is it's not going to vanish without serious therapy, and obviously you can't keep working for someone who doesn't pay up.

I'd say that the best idea would be to be more legalistic and less personal in tone, send emails saying that you can't continue working until previous invoices have been paid, and maybe hint at small claims court, but I suspect that while that might get you the money he would also feel betrayed and thus retaliate somehow. I don't think there is really any way to "win", though, to have everything work out the best in all aspects - you're being treated unfairly so you have to think of your own interests.

 

[keybored]

Do the spreadsheet and make the last item a charge of £100 or so for "Administration - (compiling spreadsheets)".

 

[campanula]

It sounds like he has no problem pushing the limits and you are wary stop him. Therefore the balance will always be shifting in his favour.

n it doesn't sound like you're great friends anyway (in fact it doesn't sound like that even now)

 

[two sheds]

How much do you need the work?

 

[Pickman's model]

How much do you need the work?

Three words crossed my mind, campanula, if you don't really need this work - small claims court

 

[andysays]

How much do you really need the work and the money from this one guy, given all the hassle that goes with it?

Might be worth considering simply getting as much of what he currently owes you out of him as you can, writing off the rest and declining any work in future.

 

[campanula]

Um, messed up quotey thing.
Yep, the atmosphere has become much more hostile. I am going to email and just ask again to be paid and to draw a line under the work for at least a few months.

Do the spreadsheet and make the last item a charge of £100 or so for "Administration - (compiling spreadsheets)".

While I have to do this fucking spreadsheet stuff, he handed over £ 2,500 to the plumbers (2 days work!)...who gave him a 1 line bill without even a materials/labour split. So yeah, I was tempted to add a couple of hours 'admin' to the bill.

 

[two sheds]

So yeah, I was tempted to add a couple of hours 'admin' to the bill.

Can we just examine this "was tempted" for a moment?

 

[campanula]

He was my very first customer when I started out as a freelance gardener when he was a very typical Cambridge type ...and has become tediously racist (he sees himself as an 'Africanist' FFS and is still steeped in that condescending imperialism). He is both a terrible bully but also quite insecure...and because we have been friends, he has lost some of the upper hand. Both of us (me and sweetheart) have lost our shit with him (although mine was just a snarky email) while Reuben told him he 'didn't fucking own him'..which is like a huge rage-y thing for my normally affable and kind partner.

 

[salem]

On the spreadsheet/admin side of thing - could it be that you change things there? I do web stuff but the billing format isn't that different from physical building/maintenance.

I have some jobs that are fixed price and so long as the price/scope is agreed up front then there is no problem.

There are other jobs I have which are a bit more adhoc, small updates, adjustments, support etc. I used to not charge for lots of that stuff as it was more hassle then it was worth admin wise and where I did charge it was a bit of a finger in the air with a mind that nothing had really been agreed and I'd generally undercharge rather then look like I was taking the piss.

Then I had a client who wanted a proper breakdown of everything but I was pretty in need of the work at the time so I went along with it. It's actually worked out for me really well, and I do it for all clients. I use toggl and record all my work in it - every phone call, every 5 min update - along with a very brief note of what I'm doing. Doesn't take that much effort and at the end of the month I bill to the nearest 15 mins at a decent rate (well it seems to me anyway, others say it's far too low). Anyway I feel happy doing that as I have the confidence that I know I've done the work, I actually do the work because when the clock is running I don't piss about so much and all those little jobs total up over the month so it's kinda a win all round. It turns out I'd been undercharging loads and despite everyone now paying a bit more I've not had a single complaint.

So if you're not doing fixed job prices, it may be worth looking into some more formal mechanism for recording what you're doing for yours and your clients benefit. Along with having terms etc (even if they're just copy and paste jobbies from the internet) can keep the work relationship formal and you can then be friends etc as necessary separately.

 

[two sheds]

I may feel differently tomorrow but my first thought is:

"Look I'm sorry I have to say this, I've really enjoyed working for you but I need to be paid. I've done the best work I can and you've made no complaints. I've got bills too. I've done the work, please pay me the rate we agreed for it. I really can't do any more work for you until you do that"

 

[campanula]

I have to order some more Marmoleum (bloody Clic flooring - never again) - cue sarcastic comments about my counting abilities so will tell him I am unable to unless paid. I am annoyed with myself because I asked to be paid after finishing the bathrooms because we had £700 worth of kitchen flooring as hostage...but have bloody well done it now so we have no leverage.
FFS, this is ridiculous, isn't it?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

blargh

is there some bit of law that allows small businesses to charge interest on late invoices? (i'm not a small business, but have a vague feeling i've heard of this)

and inclined to tell him that your prices have gone up due to increased overheads or something

or just tell him to fuck off - some business just isn't worth it, but only you can decide whether this is.

 

[two sheds]

small claims courts were very good as a last resort when I used them although that's 20 years ago.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

small claims courts were very good as a last resort when I used them although that's 20 years ago.

the accounts person at one small firm i worked for (now about 30 years ago - ) worked on the basis that if you were going to threaten, you wanted to make it sound like you had thought about the procedure - rather than just a vague reference to the small claims court (which doesn't technically exist) it was more constructive to say something like if you don't pay up by X date, then we will take action in the catford (or wherever) county court. process at that time was you needed to bring the small claims case in the county court that covered the place that the person / company who owed you money lived, not where you were based. obviously i'm 30 years out of date on this...

if this isn't stating the bloody obvious, this has more.

 

[mx wcfc]

Some clients take the piss. sounds like this is one of them, we all have to put up with it, unless and until we have enough work to tell them to feck off and find another mug. I'm employed, so not so dependent, but the company is pretty clear that we don't work for feckers that don't pay. guess I'm lucky.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

re-submit the invoice with 'twat surcharge' ?

 

[two sheds]

I think a judge might look favourably on that

 

[salem]

The late payment thing is Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 - Late Payment Law - easy to apply if you go to small claims court. Used to use it a lot when I worked for a company but only really as a threat or sweetener though (i.e pay me before x and I'll waive the fees) - might not be relevant if you're working for him as a consumer.

When we wanted to push for payment we'd complete and print the small claims form - https://assets.publishing.service.g...ploads/attachment_data/file/688390/n1-eng.pdf - and send it with the invoice (include the extra fees for interest etc) and a covering letter saying if this doesn't get paid by x date we'd be claiming it + fees etc in court.

That being said it tends to be a bit of a nuclear option and I wouldn't expect any work after it, also if you don't have any agreement about the work to be done/fees etc in advance and the other parties disputes it's due then small claims might not work out that easily.

 

[existentialist]

Three words crossed my mind, campanula, if you don't really need this work - small claims court

If you don't need the work, double the rate

 

[existentialist]

I had a client who did quite a lot the same as Campanula's client: he'd quibble the invoice every time, aiming (it appeared) to knock off roughly 25-30% off the total, and always, always paying late, with much trivial delaying tactics thrown in (for free ).

I solved the problem by whacking 40% onto the core invoice value, plus another 5%, and then offering him a 2½% prompt payment discount if the account was settled in 30 days. I'd let him have his argument, and generously discount the invoice by as much as 25% , before starting the clock and issuing a payment reminder at 21 days. Worked like a fucking dream - he thought he was gently screwing me over, and saving a bit of £ by paying late, and I'd got all that covered (and more), and got paid promptly into the bargain.

I think I'd probably tolerate the right wing arsiness if I were getting the proper wedge in on time...

 

[Poi E]

Just serve him a demand letter. He's relying on your good grace, forbearance and friendship. Some friend. Screw those close to you on your way up. No sympathy.

 

[Supine]

I had a client who did quite a lot the same as Campanula's client: he'd quibble the invoice every time, aiming (it appeared) to knock off roughly 25-30% off the total, and always, always paying late, with much trivial delaying tactics thrown in (for free ).

I solved the problem by whacking 40% onto the core invoice value, plus another 5%, and then offering him a 2½% prompt payment discount if the account was settled in 30 days. I'd let him have his argument, and generously discount the invoice by as much as 25% , before starting the clock and issuing a payment reminder at 21 days. Worked like a fucking dream - he thought he was gently screwing me over, and saving a bit of £ by paying late, and I'd got all that covered (and more), and got paid promptly into the bargain.

I think I'd probably tolerate the right wing arsiness if I were getting the proper wedge in on time...

This sounds like a good plan. On principle I wouldn't take a client like this unless I was desperate. If I needed to, I'd spend some time looking for a replacement. Life is too short for this bullshit.

 

[campanula]

This sounds like a good plan. On principle I wouldn't take a client like this unless I was desperate. If I needed to, I'd spend some time looking for a replacement. Life is too short for this bullshit.

Yes, it really is (too short). I went in today and he has locked himself in his study. It has occurred to me that in 18 years, he has never, not once, managed to say 'well done' or nice job'...and has actively sabotaged some things. I think this is a way of keeping me constantly on my back foot (and it has clearly worked cos here I am, still faffing, dithering and getting upset because it isn't in my nature to simply fuck him off. Anyway, going in to collect my tools and give him a final chance to pay up - fingers crossed.

Plus, I have been stuck with 'mate's rate's for the entire time apart from gardening work (which is what I was originally employed to do until I casually mentioned carpentry and building...sigh).

 

[andysays]

Yes, it really is (too short). I went in today and he has locked himself in his study. It has occurred to me that in 18 years, he has never, not once, managed to say 'well done' or nice job'...and has actively sabotaged some things. I think this is a way of keeping me constantly on my back foot (and it has clearly worked cos here I am, still faffing, dithering and getting upset because it isn't in my nature to simply fuck him off. Anyway, going in to collect my tools and give him a final chance to pay up - fingers crossed.

Good luck. Whatever happens, hope you feel better after asserting yourself and making a stand.

 

[newbie]

I had a client who did quite a lot the same as Campanula's client: he'd quibble the invoice every time, aiming (it appeared) to knock off roughly 25-30% off the total, and always, always paying late, with much trivial delaying tactics thrown in (for free ).

I solved the problem by whacking 40% onto the core invoice value, plus another 5%, and then offering him a 2½% prompt payment discount if the account was settled in 30 days. I'd let him have his argument, and generously discount the invoice by as much as 25% , before starting the clock and issuing a payment reminder at 21 days. Worked like a fucking dream - he thought he was gently screwing me over, and saving a bit of £ by paying late, and I'd got all that covered (and more), and got paid promptly into the bargain.

I think I'd probably tolerate the right wing arsiness if I were getting the proper wedge in on time...

this.

plus an escalator- keep upping the price (hourly rate, admin charge, markup- there is a markup, right?) until he goes away, secure in the knowledge that you're getting paid for dealing with a loon.