Industrial music and its relationship(??) to fascism

[frogwoman]

I was reading a very interesting website last night (www.whomakesthenazis.com) which claimed among other things that some neo-nazis were deeply involved the industrial music scene and the punk scene as well as other subcultures, but also that a lot of the bands that are in that scene have been openly or covertyl fascist, and that their aim in producing a lot of their music was to infiltrate those ideas into the industrial culture.

I'm not sure about this being a massive fan of industrial music myself, but I will say that several bands do use fascist iconography and lyrics with certain messages in them, album covers, etc, which could be interpreted as being a bit dodgy (these tends not to be the ones I listen to).

But some of them, like Laibach etc, are just doing it to shock and many are actually socialists or anarchists, and it often becomes clear if you listen to the lyrics in more depth. Some of them make music about the second world war, but from a standpoint of being opposed to it.
But nonetheless there does seem to be a few fans who seem quite attracted to the ideas of the far right because of the music's whole "image" and I know a few people who are put off listening to it for that reason. But what Im wondering is to what extent there is anything more than that, and how this whole thing came about tbh.

Im sorry if this is too deep a thread for the music forum but as I said I was reading this website last night and was interested to see what people thought about it.

 

[killer b]

on the whole it's just little boys shouting 'poo!', and a silly love of the aesthetics of fascism rather than genuine nazi sympathisers. i also reckon that the influence industrial musicians have on real world politics is so tiny that it's hardly worth remarking on - the right wing we have to worry about is not the skinny goth in a death in june t-shirt.

 

[Idris2002]

Well re: Laibach, I've been listening to their national anthems, and I don't see how a fascist would do something like this, which combines the Israeli and Palestinian national anthems:

 

[frogwoman]

oh i know all that I am actually a really big laibach and industrial music fan which is why I posted this thread! That song is awesome. Check out the turkish one as well, Lol.

 

[frogwoman]

That's what I mean basically, a lot of them are just doing it to shock or be subversive and then when you listen to the lyircs of their national anthem series it just brings it home how ridiculous these songs and nationalism are.

 

[Pickman's model]

on the whole it's just little boys shouting 'poo!', and a silly love of the aesthetics of fascism rather than genuine nazi sympathisers. i also reckon that the influence industrial musicians have on real world politics is so tiny that it's hardly worth remarking on - the right wing we have to worry about is not the skinny goth in a death in june t-shirt.

you're missing the point. the fascist music business (eg blood and honour) makes a considerable amount of money in comparison to the income of most other far-right groups. the income from blood and honour was the major factor in combat 18's takeover of the organisation in the early 1990s.

of course it's not like racist skinheads are going to take over the country. it won't be the likes of westen or darby out of 'sons of anarchy': it will be people like ethan zobel.

and the money behind them will in part come from the fascist music scene - blood and honour financed the formation of the bnp's 'excalibur' through the donation of cds.

ian stuart donaldson is said have pointed out that people will generally read a political tract the once, but listen to a song a thousand times. and, if he said it, he has a fair point.

 

[Idris2002]

The German one is more politically interesting:



'After the unspeakable, after you have fallen as only an angel can fall'. What bit of German history do you think they're referencing there?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

you're missing the point. the fascist music business (eg blood and honour) makes a considerable amount of money in comparison to the income of most other far-right groups. the income from blood and honour was the major factor in combat 18's takeover of the organisation in the early 1990s.

of course it's not like racist skinheads are going to take over the country. it won't be the likes of westen or darby out of 'sons of anarchy': it will be people like ethan zobel.

and the money behind them will in part come from the fascist music scene - blood and honour financed the formation of the bnp's 'excalibur' through the donation of cds.

ian stuart donaldson is said have pointed out that people will generally read a political tract the once, but listen to a song a thousand times. and, if he said it, he has a fair point.

Those are different people to the ones this thread is about though aren't they?

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, which is why I am wondering how much of an influence far-right ideas really have in the industrial music scene and how much of a "problem" it really is. How much has the fash music scene grown since the early 90s pickmans? I'd have imagined that it wouldn't be such a big deal as it once was because of the decline of the music industry in general?

 

[killer b]

you're missing the point. the fascist music business (eg blood and honour) makes a considerable amount of money in comparison to the income of most other far-right groups. the income from blood and honour was the major factor in combat 18's takeover of the organisation in the early 1990s.

of course it's not like racist skinheads are going to take over the country. it won't be the likes of westen or darby out of 'sons of anarchy': it will be people like ethan zobel.

and the money behind them will in part come from the fascist music scene - blood and honour financed the formation of the bnp's 'excalibur' through the donation of cds.

ian stuart donaldson is said have pointed out that people will generally read a political tract the once, but listen to a song a thousand times. and, if he said it, he has a fair point.

i don't think blood & honour (more a punk thing wasn't it?) is the same as much of the nazi-flirting industrial scene, which is rarely financially connected to the far right. i'm sure there's some crossover, but i think there is a distinction to be made.

 

[frogwoman]

oh yeah absolutely, but i guess im asking how many of them are just "nazi-flirting" as you say (which a lot of the time can make the impact of the songs more powerful for example x-fusion's song "follow your leader" which is actually imo an anti nazi song even tho it has nazi samples in it) and how many of them actually do this because they have far right sympathies, and also why it was in this particular music genre that this came about.

 

[butchersapron]

I was reading a very interesting website last night (www.whomakesthenazis.com) which claimed among other things that some neo-nazis were deeply involved the industrial music scene and the punk scene as well as other subcultures, but also that a lot of the bands that are in that scene have been openly or covertyl fascist, and that their aim in producing a lot of their music was to infiltrate those ideas into the industrial culture.

I'm not sure about this being a massive fan of industrial music myself, but I will say that several bands do use fascist iconography and lyrics with certain messages in them, album covers, etc, which could be interpreted as being a bit dodgy (these tends not to be the ones I listen to).

But some of them, like Laibach etc, are just doing it to shock and many are actually socialists or anarchists, and it often becomes clear if you listen to the lyrics in more depth. Some of them make music about the second world war, but from a standpoint of being opposed to it.
But nonetheless there does seem to be a few fans who seem quite attracted to the ideas of the far right because of the music's whole "image" and I know a few people who are put off listening to it for that reason. But what Im wondering is to what extent there is anything more than that, and how this whole thing came about tbh.

Im sorry if this is too deep a thread for the music forum but as I said I was reading this website last night and was interested to see what people thought about it.

I think there's some really informative articles on this on fozzie's site (irrc he's also contributed to the site you mention - there used to be another site with the same fall derived name that years ago claimed to be examining the far-right but appeared well dodgy to me).

 

[Idris2002]

Orwell said that things like the goose-step were totalitarian power's way of saying 'I am ridiculous, but you're too scared to laugh at me'. And Laibach's shtick seems to consist of taking that iconography to its own ridiculous extreme. But listening to their national anthems, it seems to me that they are also acknowledging how and why people may find the pull of nationalism attractive.

 

[frogwoman]

Thanks, yeah i was just reading his "i was a teenage death in june fan" - really interesting. I also like this quote:

I especially liked the comments in this entry about artists who harp on about exploring extreme material, but seem unable to come to any conclusions or opinions about their favourite subject matter, even after a quarter of a century.

 

[Termite Man]

not fascist

 

[Pickman's model]

i don't think blood & honour (more a punk thing wasn't it?) is the same as much of the nazi-flirting industrial scene, which is rarely financially connected to the far right. i'm sure there's some crossover, but i think there is a distinction to be made.

blood and honour more oi and metal. but you'll doubtless have noticed i was talking about the broader fascist music scene and using blood & honour as an example.

 

[Pickman's model]

Those are different people to the ones this thread is about though aren't they?

what, the fascist music scene? death in june, mentioned in the post to which i was responding, are definitely dodgy.

 

[sim667]

Not really ever thought about it, but then I only listen to nine, kmfdm and snake river conspiracy

 

[killer b]

blood and honour more oi and metal. but you'll doubtless have noticed i was talking about the broader fascist music scene and using blood & honour as an example.

yes, but this thread isn't focusing on the broader fascist music scene.

 

[frogwoman]

How much has the fascist music scene suffered with the decline of the "mainstream" music industry pickman's (sorry, going off topic on my own thread here!)

Also, I have noticed since I listen to a huge amount of industrial music, that some of the whole "image", some of the samples used and the style of music (for example marching beats etc) of a few of the bands evoke the idea of fascism even if the lyrics aren't fascist, or some of the "mystical" type themes that fascism tends to hark back to. Now I am aware that most of them are just doing this to shock people. Like I've seen a few bands get accused of being nazis, but they're normally not, but when does the desire to shock someone cross over into really dodgy territory. In other words when does it become not just shocking and provocative but wrong?

And given that I recently discovered that a singer in a band that I really like had a tattoo saying "ubermensch" across his chest (yeah, i know that doesn't make you a nazi, but it's still pretty dodgy imo) and given some of the themes that crop up quite repeatedly in the music - and i know most of these bands are not fash whatsoever so don't get me wrong - i'm starting to wonder whether there might be something "more" to it than just a few idiots deciding that because they have a somewhat "military" image etc, that it means that they might be fash, and wondering to what extent the far right is actually a part of that particular musical genre. Because I love this type of music and want to carry on buying records safe in the knowledge that I'm not inadvertently financing the BNP or something (well I wouldn't be, but you know what I mean).

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

using the undeniably appealing visual imagery of fascism doesn't in and of itself mean that the musical culture that highlights such ideology as being naturally right wing imo. i think a lot of industrial music uses the whole medium for shock and for reaction and as a pointed reminder of what happens when you try to shut any particular culture down.

and then there is the fact that extreme people are drawn to the extremes.

 

[Pickman's model]

yes, but this thread isn't focusing on the broader fascist music scene.

no, you just want to look at the 'nazi-flirting industrial scene' i suppose. that may be rarely financially connected to the far-right, but it provides a conduit for the dissemination of their symbols and views.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

no, you just want to look at the 'nazi-flirting industrial scene' i suppose. that may be rarely financially connected to the far-right, but it provides a conduit for the dissemination of their symbols and views.

or an examination perhaps?

 

[Pickman's model]

or an examination perhaps?

eh? you think that the section of the industrial scene which may be described as 'nazi-flirting' is in a good position to provide a searching critique of fascist semiotics?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

eh? you think that the section of the industrial scene which may be described as 'nazi-flirting' is in a good position to provide a searching critique of fascist semiotics?

do you understand something by looking at it or by ignoring it?

 

[frogwoman]

using the undeniably appealing visual imagery of fascism doesn't in and of itself mean that the musical culture that highlights such ideology as being naturally right wing imo. i think a lot of industrial music uses the whole medium for shock and for reaction and as a pointed reminder of what happens when you try to shut any particular culture down.

and then there is the fact that extreme people are drawn to the extremes.

Aye that's a good point. A lot of the lyrics of say Tactical Sekt and Wumpscut are extremely political. I also think that some of the fascist-style iconography used migh be a deliberate attempt to wind people up when people were labelling them as nazis with no evidence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How much has the fascist music scene suffered with the decline of the "mainstream" music industry pickman's (sorry, going off topic on my own thread here!)

Also, I have noticed since I listen to a huge amount of industrial music, that some of the whole "image", some of the samples used and the style of music (for example marching beats etc) of a few of the bands evoke the idea of fascism even if the lyrics aren't fascist, or some of the "mystical" type themes that fascism tends to hark back to. Now I am aware that most of them are just doing this to shock people. Like I've seen a few bands get accused of being nazis, but they're normally not, but when does the desire to shock someone cross over into really dodgy territory. In other words when does it become not just shocking and provocative but wrong?

And given that I recently discovered that a singer in a band that I really like had a tattoo saying "ubermensch" across his chest (yeah, i know that doesn't make you a nazi, but it's still pretty dodgy imo) and given some of the themes that crop up quite repeatedly in the music - and i know most of these bands are not fash whatsoever so don't get me wrong - i'm starting to wonder whether there might be something "more" to it than just a few idiots deciding that because they have a somewhat "military" image etc, that it means that they might be fash, and wondering to what extent the far right is actually a part of that particular musical genre. Because I love this type of music and want to carry on buying records safe in the knowledge that I'm not inadvertently financing the BNP or something (well I wouldn't be, but you know what I mean).

I remember a Swappie once taking about half an hour telling me I was a fascist because I was listening to SPK's "Leichenschrei" on my Walkman (yes, it was a long time ago!). He went into a convoluted attempt at reasoning, that was basically about how the music used heavily percussive beats that were akin to martial music, and therefore was "fascist".
As with a lot of Swappie mouthings around that time (and since! ), it was intellectually-incoherent drivel.

 

[frogwoman]

Lol. That is ridiculous.

 

[temper_tantrum]

As with a lot of Swappie mouthings around that time (and since! ), it was intellectually-incoherent drivel.

Reminds me of an argument I had with a Swappie friend of my sister's, who seriously said that the name 'Adolf' should be banned because it was just too offensive for anyone to be called that. (This is in the context of a friend of theirs having it as his middle name; she said it was tantamout to child abuse ). We did try to establish whether 'Josef' or 'Winston' were acceptable, but couldn't get a coherent answer ...
Sorry, frogwoman, this is totally off-topic

 

[frogwoman]

Well, imo, it is a bit dodgy for people to be called "adolf" if they are say, German, but I've met eastern europeans and african people with that name.