Industrial animal farming has caused most new infectious diseases and risks more pandemics, experts warn

[littlebabyjesus]

I'll admit that what you guys are saying here is interesting. However, I'd imagine that most of the deforestation is still caused by the demand for meat. Thing is, even if it's about equal, there are other problems with animal agrigulture to look at (including the immense suffering of animals), this is just one thing, and how do I know that your info isn't funded by the meat or animal agriculture industry?

Back of an envelope estimates of the economics involved here:

Googling the world commodity markets, soyabean meal commodity price is currently just under $300 per tonne. Soyabean oil commodity price is at around $650. Yield of meal to oil is just over 4:1.

So in terms of farmer income, that suggests that around 2/3 of the income comes from demand for animal food, and around 1/3 from demand for human food.

That does mean that demand for meat is a big driver towards increased soya production. It would be interesting to see what alternatives there are currently to farmers, and what alternatives could be offered by different overall integrated farming systems.

 

[Larry Noppius]

Is this another thread where vegigans argue edited opinion pieces as science?

Yes. It is kind of cute how they expect people to just blindly accept their claims because of a purported "scientific authority", apparently completely oblivious to the fact that in science authority counts for very little and scientists are, to the contrary, trained to critically evaluate the literature rather than just blindly accept whatever an "academic authority" tells them. I think that's why they avoid peer reviewed sources to support their claims with, as peer review makes obvious the critical thinking and evaluation within science, and that doesn't fit into their worldview of blind belief in authority.

 

[Combustible]

Yes, I named a few. Ironically intensive pig and poultry is better positioned to contain them due to the biosecurity that exists within them (certainly here in the UK) than extensive farming.

I have wondered whether a consequence of the pandemic will be a push for increased factory farming, especially given the ridiculous demand for banning wet markets, which for the most part are not that different from a farmer's market (although of course a lot of factory farmed meat is still sold at them, especially pork). The banning of selling live wildlife is inarguable, but there is a question about whether there will be attempts to prevent selling live poultry. Buying live poultry and slaughtering at home at least in China is a popular alternative to factory farmed meat, but it also represents an obvious risk for transmitting new viruses to humans.

 

[Big Bertha]

Is this another thread where vegigans argue edited opinion pieces as science?

Yes

 

[bmd]

I have wondered whether a consequence of the pandemic will be a push for increased factory farming, especially given the ridiculous demand for banning wet markets, which for the most part are not that different from a farmer's market (although of course a lot of factory farmed meat is still sold at them, especially pork). The banning of selling live wildlife is inarguable, but there is a question about whether there will be attempts to prevent selling live poultry. Buying live poultry and slaughtering at home at least in China is a popular alternative to factory farmed meat, but it also represents an obvious risk for transmitting new viruses to humans.

I was under the impression that the problem with wet markets is the close proximity of certain species e.g. squirrels kept next to chickens. The problem being that more than one species needs to chain these viruses together before a human can catch them. As opposed to these viruses coming straight from say, a chicken to a human. Is that incorrect?

 

[CNT36]

Yes. It is kind of cute how they expect people to just blindly accept their claims because of a purported "scientific authority", apparently completely oblivious to the fact that in science authority counts for very little and scientists are, to the contrary, trained to critically evaluate the literature rather than just blindly accept whatever an "academic authority" tells them. I think that's why they avoid peer reviewed sources to support their claims with, as peer review makes obvious the critical thinking and evaluation within science, and that doesn't fit into their worldview of blind belief in authority.

Please don't do this to this thread. Play the ball.

 

[Combustible]

I was under the impression that the problem with wet markets is the close proximity of certain species e.g. squirrels kept next to chickens. The problem being that more than one species needs to chain these viruses together before a human can catch them. As opposed to these viruses coming straight from say, a chicken to a human. Is that incorrect?

The point being a wet market is just a market selling fresh produce, particularly fresh meat and fish. The vast majority do not have live animals (besides maybe fish/seafood), and live wild animals are even less common. I don't think the ridiculous demands for wet markets to be shutdown will happen, but if it did happen I imagine that would result in consumers eating even more meat from industrial farming bought at supermarkets. (But there's no reason why a virus needs to pass through multiple species before infecting humans)

 

[bmd]

The point being a wet market is just a market selling fresh produce, particularly fresh meat and fish. The vast majority do not have live animals (besides maybe fish/seafood), and live wild animals are even less common. I don't think the ridiculous demands for wet markets to be shutdown will happen, but if it did happen I imagine that would result in consumers eating even more meat from industrial farming bought at supermarkets. (But there's no reason why a virus needs to pass through multiple species before infecting humans)

I don't think it was that a virus needs to pass through multiple species in order to infect humans, more that certain new viruses cannot, for example, directly infect humans but can jump from the host species to a species that can and there are only certain mixes of species that can be in this chain and it was the proximity of these species within certain wet markets that made this possible. If that makes sense?

 

[Larry Noppius]

Please don't do this to this thread. Play the ball.

I have, I've asked editor several questions about his theory, all of which he evaded while engaging in name-calling instead. Where was your concern for the thread and "playing the ball" then? That's right, it was nowhere to be found. So no, I'm not buying it that you suddenly start to have concerns about "playing the ball" the moment the motive of some people in grossly misrepresenting science gets discussed.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have, I've asked editor several questions about his theory, all of which he evaded while engaging in name-calling instead. Where was your concern for the thread and "playing the ball" then? That's right, it was nowhere to be found. So no, I'm not buying it that you suddenly start to have concerns about "playing the ball" the moment the motive of some people in grossly misrepresenting science gets discussed.

perhaps you should go back and check what's been said is as you say, being as you do have a history of having to apologise because you didn't read what was posted

 

[CNT36]

I have, I've asked editor several questions about his theory, all of which he evaded while engaging in name-calling instead. Where was your concern for the thread and "playing the ball" then? That's right, it was nowhere to be found. So no, I'm not buying it that you suddenly start to have concerns about "playing the ball" the moment the motive of some people in grossly misrepresenting science gets discussed.

I would have said the same to Spymaster when he'd started on the vegigan shit if he'd not been rightly or wrongly kicked off the thread. Iirc Editor was taken to task by others including yourself. I politely asked you not to contribute to turning this thread into the last one before anyone else jumped in. No one has mentioned fragile carnists etc on this thread (and reasonably sure there have been no sweeping statements about meat eaters) so maybe leave out the vegigan stuff and generalisations for a bit.There have been some interesting posts on this thread from funky, LBJ and others that could go somewhere worth the effort.

 

[bmd]

Back of an envelope estimates of the economics involved here:

Googling the world commodity markets, soyabean meal commodity price is currently just under $300 per tonne. Soyabean oil commodity price is at around $650. Yield of meal to oil is just over 4:1.

So in terms of farmer income, that suggests that around 2/3 of the income comes from demand for animal food, and around 1/3 from demand for human food.

That does mean that demand for meat is a big driver towards increased soya production. It would be interesting to see what alternatives there are currently to farmers, and what alternatives could be offered by different overall integrated farming systems.

The maths of food waste and how the tech being focused on that will profoundly change the percentage of wastage could well give us enough breathing space to ramp up lab grown meat production to the point where using live animals is just outdated. I can imagine that happening within 20 years.

 

[Funky_monks]

The maths of food waste and how the tech being focused on that will profoundly change the percentage of wastage could well give us enough breathing space to ramp up lab grown meat production to the point where using live animals is just outdated. I can imagine that happening within 20 years.

To be honest, I find the idea of the big food companies having total control of protein production in this way utterly terrifying, the power in the food supply chain is already disproportionately in their hands, this would give them almost total control. Goodbye small producer.....

 

[Marty1]

That seems totally contary to most of what you post on these forums. You come across as some who is firmly on the side of the capitalist class.

I post ad nauseum regarding Amazon workers exploitation ffs.

 

[Marty1]

Yep it's a complete waste of time. Thread on ignore just like the other one.

Oh, you’re off and with a strop - are you sure you’re workers revolution material?

 

[editor]

It's become pretty obvious that anyone throwing around this ridiculous 'vegigan' word has precious little interest in having an intelligent discussion, so I'm employing the thread banhammer.

As ever, posters are feel to raise any complaints in the feedback forum.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's become pretty obvious that anyone throwing around this ridiculous 'vegigan' word has precious little interest in having an intelligent discussion, so I'm employing the thread banhammer.

As ever, posters are feel to raise any complaints in the feedback forum.

Nah I'll complain on the same place you've posted thanks. Oh and

Vegigan
Vegigan
Vegigan
Vegigan

 

[editor]

Nah I'll complain on the same place you've posted thanks. Oh and

Vegigan
Vegigan
Vegigan
Vegigan

And that last spectacularly infantile post has proved the final nail in the coffin of yet another valid discussion that has been trashed and shut down by the same suspects.

I'm going to talk to the mods about changing things here because this kind of behaviour can't go on.